whipplem104

You should pm or email me when you are ready. I will only make a system as someone orders one. I am going to have several pieces done at cnc for cost and time and it should only take me a couple of weeks to make everything.

bagelsjustbagel

well what would the overall cost be w/o shipping, and would you include build plans for a mechanic i would hire..

bagelsjustbagel

would it be better/produce better results to turbo my c36. not supercharge?

NitrogenBalance

Are you actually considering forced induction or just curious about it? If I recall you just bought that car right? Did it not meet your expectations in terms of power? I'm guessing it would cost at least $5K to go F/I unless you do it all yourself. I would also warn that your probably going to end up sinking in the same amount of $ getting the car right as it cost you to buy it... I would recomend picking up a second car also as a daily driver if you are seriously considering boosting your C36. Using your project car as your daily is silly and becomes very inconvenient. Building up a car is fun and a labor of love, so don't let me scare you away. I've been through 3 W202's and I've fallen deeper into the mod trap with each one. Another way to look at it, for what you paid for your car + 5K + all the time involved, and you could probably buy a used W202 5.5L conversion and be done. I would surely have gone this route had I known.

In terms of turbo/supercharger, I think either would get you the power your after. I would use cost and availability as the determining factor. The system in the original post seems as good as any turbo system I've seen for the C36. I'd go whipplecharger in this case if it were me.

Ask yourself what your really after and what your willing to spend, then look in the driveway and deside. Mabye it wasn't the right model for you?

whipplem104

There is no doubt that a well built turbo system will make more power than a supercharger, but this is at most 50-75 hp due to the power to run the supercharger. That said there are distinct advantages to both. I like the supercharger for several reasons. First is throttle control. With the supercharger there is a direct relationship to your foot and the amount of power the car is making. With the turbo there is always some lag and boost is building through the rpm range. The second major reason I like the supercharger is that it does not require the entire exhaust system to be rebuilt making it easy to switch back to stock and the install can be done at home in a
relatively short time.
Cost for what I am building is going to be in the 6-7000 range. As posted, cost for just the major components is 4500-5000. A turbo system would cost about the same or more. Cheaper stuff can be done that is effective but there is always a compromise. Eventually the stock manifold has to be changed if high boost and big horsepower is the goal. I can build almost anything you want, from a turbo system to a centrifugal set up.
As a response to the 5.5 conversion on a 202, it does not compare. A c36 or a c280 with a stroke and some boost will crush a c55. The simple fact is that the power even if it is the same peak power is so much stronger. The straight six with boost makes gobs of low end torque. The 3.6 with low boost in the 6lb range makes over 400 ckhp. My car with 9lbs is making high 380ckhp and my exhaust back pressure is over 20lbs chocking the engine on the high end.

c280_nz

yea the straight 6 m104 with boost is the way to go.
oh yea and with the m104 u can get a MANUAL transmission

NitrogenBalance

I'm sure you guys are dead on with how much more power you can make with the straight six. I don't know alot about MB motors of the past or present, only a little about the M113 that I have. My comment wasn't based on available power but more on making one's life easier and fulfilling one's power needs. I was considering the fact that bagels is young and seemed to put a good effort into getting this ride he wanted. I also think its safe to say it is his first MB and he is probably no wrenching expert. This considered and the fact that I think he is still a student makes boosting an MB that is your daily driver tricky. That said he would have alot more time, patience, and possibly money left over if he bought something that is all buttoned up already.

...all coming from someone who has ripped apart and looked into every way of modding my C43...what a hypocrite thankfully I had the support and extra vehicle though...and loving the 202/M113 I still wish I had the 5.5L sometimes for simplicity.

I think this is starting to hyjack your thread though, and I 100% love your setup whippleman, and I'm jealous you have the ability to play with MB's. So don't think I'm stearing anyone away from your kit as its probably going to be the best one for the M104, or the only one with living support.

Barking up my tree, I've chosen to tuck away a little coin each week since August to save for a CL600 sometime in 2010, always keeping my C43. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm doing so as my next project I want to start with the most powerful powertrain MB offers and many including myself feel the TTV12 is the ticket.

Good luck man, and keep it up

kinghais

A+

RBYCC

If the kit is not designed for a specific application and doesn't include a fool proof means of enrichment under boost then you'll have nothing more then a continuing work in progress.

That's best case...get the enrichment incorrect by not being able to tune on a dyno and you may end up with some broken stuff...

c280_nz

A++
and on the m104 you need larger injectors if your planning on making power,
im up to 440cc now!
what size injectors are you running whipple?

whipplem104

I am running the injectors from a e55 kompressor. I think they are around 500cc. The stock c36 injectors with a rising rate pressure regulator could handle about 400ckhp. I would go higher injector rate though and try not to run higher fuel pressure if I was running up to 4 bls of boost.
Anyone can handle the fuel enrichment if done properly. There are many different ways of going about it and they all cost different amounts. All of these should be done by someone who knows what they are doing.
This is not really news to anybody. I personally think that on the older cars if big horsepower is the goal the entire fuel injection system should be thrown away and full standalone installed because of the ignition resolution. People do it with out it but to each his own.
I am simply making something mostly for myself and know that others might be interested. The fabrication is the hardest part and the most costly.
If someone wants me to do all of it and the install and tune it, I will.
Otherwise if someone wants to buy the components and have someone else tune it that is fine also.

bagelsjustbagel

im jjust curious, because once i graduate highschool, and im in college i wont be driving my car, so im going to want to do sum type of F/I with my collegte job $ ... im just getting ideas

bagelsjustbagel

almost on the money

RBYCC

You are being rather contradictory....

"Anyone" cannot achieve the proper fuel enrichment through the boost rpm band without using a wideband O2 sensor and establishing settings while on a dyno or roadtest.

Raising rate FPR's are not sufficient enough to establish a constant 3d mapping of the enrichment.
Same is true for larger injectors.
If you can't accurately control through a mappable program then your end result is not consistent.

With all the posts on all the Merc forums I've yet to see anyone who has achieved a "perfect' afr using DIY methods on either KE or HFM used on the 103 and 104 I6.

The real knowledge is in the basics of the stock injection and engine management and how to mod via a piggyback or stand alone means !

whipplem104

You are correct that the lesser methods will not be perfect through the entire map, but they are sufficient for making safe power. If it is set up to be rich instead of lean. I am not suggesting that someone set up a tune on their car without proper feedback from an o2 sensor. The rising rate fuel pressure reg. is not as clean and remapping the whole system but it is sufficient for many tuners such as Kleemann with Mercedes, Comptech with the NSX. Kleemann also uses higher rate injectors for their low boost application, which the car is using it's own mapping for and adapting.
I ran 9lbs of boost on a cis-e m104 with a simple boost switch to full throttle contact and a tweek on the eha. Car ran consistently in the 11-11.5:1 air fuel ratio. I also know of several m104 cars, including a c36 with a turbo that used an additional injector driver similiar to the on on your car rbycc.
I also think that I was pretty clear about my opinions on the quality of different methods. If someone does not have the abilities to handle the fuel issue and or know who to pay then they should probably not be supercharging their car.
No one should blindly install a system on their car and think everything will be ok.
If anyone would like to add constructive comments on good ways to tune any of the vehicles I am sure that all would appreciate. My point is that there are different ways of handling the issue, but in the end it must be dealt with. It is for the very reason that was mentioned that all cars are different that I do not want to. I never suggested that someone not get it done.

RBYCC

Couldn't agree more....

All I was trying to convey was that you must consider the audience you're playing to !!!!

Too many with minimal knowledge will start what they believe is bolt on or a more modern plug and play install..

Older vehicles with less sophisticated engine management need much more knowledge of the basic setup from the factory and its inherent limits.

ProjectC55

Not to mention that I've raced a TTC36 ,murdered it up to 120mph even though he was coming ,until his head gasket blew!+1+1+1

and the 5.5L conversion would be a more reliable and much more maintenance free in comparison.

Problem I've seen several times with the 3.6L setup is that perhaps it makes more power BUT the head gasket blows quite frequently under boost. Not enuff space between the cylinder walls to avoid the problem of the forced compressed air leaking between cylinders. If one could find/use the block from perhaps the turbo diesel(W210 E320 turbo diesel) this would be your best motor to use F/I IMOP.

If it were the inline 6 from an E36 BMW I'd say go for it(F/I). Tons of proven and tested kits plus you'll have a F/I car with a 5 speed manual transmission. This is my next project for my 99 M3.

However I've seen it first hand on both the turbocharged C36's that my friends own locally. Very high maintenance. Glad I have my 5.5L ,makes the car a total sleeper and it's a mod you'll always be glad you did.

RBYCC

What you state above is so true.

That is why the M103-12V with the stock compression at 9.2:1 is the ideal choice for boost.

With equal reasonable boost it may make less power then any of the M104-24V variants, but will give an installation that can perform with extreme reliability and no more maintenance then a stock engine requires.

Many kitted M103's are passing almost twenty years and 150K miles with boost and still going strong.

The 3.6L in the C36 and E36 are great NA engines and a "performance" rarity untouched.

ProjectC55

Yes the M103 is ideal as well. The Russian fellow on here has built a BEAST of a 124. I can't remember his handle but he has a beautiful example

whipplem104

The two c36s that you are talking about are first off trying to achieve very high numbers. Going for 15-20lbs of boost. I have talked to both of them and one if not both of them have gone to the 3.2l blocks. My reliability with my 3.2 is good. I have been running 9lbs of boost for 3yrs on this motor on a stock head gasket. The 3.6 can easily handle 4-6lbs with reliability.

ProjectC55

4 to 6 lbs of boost is not enuff for the 3.6L motor to run my car. The car that I raced ran 8lbs which had the car running real well until the head gasket blew.
I believe Jeffrey is running the 3.2L block or it's been bored out to 3.5L. I will ask him this afternoon.

I know they were not trying to run 15 to 20lbs of boost. I have not seen Ralston in a while but I'll find out what he has in his car now.
With the 3.6L motor I destroyed him out the hole running up to about 120mph where I could see he was catching up till his head gasket blow. He did have his girlfriend in the car with him when we ran. I was impressed that he was slowly but surely catching up.
However,don't sleep on a 5.5L V8 conversion in a C43, they will hurt you if your C36T is not in prime running order. Ask the TWO C36TT owners especially Ralston. Jeffrey himself put the 5.5l motor in my car. 4yrs and no problems whatsoever. Not ONE!

c280_nz

how much hp and torque does the 4.3 and 5.5l v8 make just interested, have you had yours on a dyno c55?
was your friend with the ttc36 running stock headgasget? and what sort of power/torque did he make on a dyno

it would also be interesting if the steel headgasgets roman makes for the m104would help with the head gasget problem, Roman is the man with the high power m103 over on mercedesshop he is called pumpish

whipplem104

I am not saying that the 55 swap into the c43 is not a good swap and very fast. But that setup should not be making more power than a 3.6 on even 6lbs of boost. The 55 made 360hp at the crank. A 3.6 should easily make more hp than that at 6lbs. Plus the torque curve should be basically flat from 3000 rpm. I make more than 357 lb ft of torque at the wheels, below 3500 rpm on 9lbs with a 3.2l. If I remember correctly that is about the same rated torque out of the 55 motor at the crank. I do not remember exactly what the two c36s are doing individually but one is running the 3.2l block with the 3.6 crank for the thicker cylinder walls. I was told by one of them that they shattered the cylinder walls.
Besides my point is simply that the m104 platform has the potential to make a great deal more hp for the dollars than the m113. I can buy a used engine for less than a grand, buy custom pistons for around a another grand, and run turbo or supercharger for less than 10,000 with full stand alone injection and all the bells and whistles.. This combines for a system easily capable of making in excess of 500 whp. You can do this with a c36 or a c280 or what ever. Making 400hp at the crank is obviously a lot easier and cheaper and very reliable.
My defense of something that I have a great deal of experience with is not meant to be an attack of any kind. I have had a very reliable car as my daily driver to go to work. The only engine trouble I have ever had was do to a fuel supply problem that came to be because of a bad batch of gas for the PNW from Phillips 76. The fuel crystalized and clogged injectors and filters etc. This is when I blew my original motor and all that happened is my ring lands collapsed. I have since put around 35,000 miles on a junkyard 3.2 with 9lbs of boost. Not a problem yet.

ProjectC55

I did not feel that you were attacking at all. Just a bit presumptous. I have personally driven in Jeffrey's car and raced Ralston's car.
They are fast but my argument is about the motors reliability as they have both gone thru more than one. While F/I is a great mod,I've seen Jeffrey and
Ralston blow either the headgasket or the motor several different times. How
can we defend that. I've personally seen it. They have spent alot more $$
than I have on their motors than I have on mine,just in engine parts. By the
way stck, the M113 5.5L V8 is making almost 400ftlbs of TQ at the crank.

However the bottom line is that I can build my M3 or my Eagle Talon to have
more pwr and to blow away either C36 TT for cheaper and not have to worry about reliability as much as I would have to with the C36 with the M104
motor. Thought I'd throw that in there.

A TT C36 takes patients to build right and tune while there r many proven
tuned E36 3 seies BMW's out there that I'd rather take a stab at using F/I.
In the mean time,if you drove my W202 C55 I'm sure you'll be thoroughly impressed as it's bruised the ego's of many different cars with more hp on a
regular basis. Plug and play with out all the fancy bells and whistles
and without worrying about the thing grenading and having me stuck on the
road. This has been again, MY experience.



P.S. speaking of power potential,show me a C36 built like your's that's run
low 11's at over 120mph and I'll show you TWO M113 5.5L F/I "C" classes
that have been there done that. One is a W202 Kleemann C55 and the other
is a W208 Kleemann CLK55 and both are members of MB world which
here including yourself already know. There are also TWO f/I SL500's M113
5.0L cars here running mid to low 12's. I bet the three F/I C43 M113 4.3L
W202 which are owned by members here are'nt too shabby themselves. The
TWO F/I M113 SL500's were modded for less than 10k.

M113 F/I vs M104 F/I,looks like we see which one has more reliable potential.
There are plenty of M113 motors selling in the US for $1500.00 and up.
When I see a M104 motored car do lo12's or even 11's I'll give you your props
ALL DAY!

solo36

I cannot stop myself from laughing. I wish I got in this conversation alot earlier, to set the record straight. Yes....we did race, and my headgasket did blow. And yet, up till now, you still won't give me a rematch. The fact that my slim and sexy girlfriend was in the car, should not make a difference.
What you're doing is considered bolt on. Dropping an engine, tune the computer, and adding a exhaust. Compared to what we've done with the C36, is built from bottom up. Not to mention, tuning and designing accessories to fit our needs. There are no C36T that are identical, yet I can find 3 or more C55's like your's on the Long Island alone. And by the way....find something else to brag about. You talk about your M3, and your Talon, but yet still you will not race Lizard Man or Tall Man or Llyody.