austinholloman

I just got a email back from Cory @ Brakeman inc. and this is what they have to offer for us. Not bad pricing for the full setup.


"We appreciate your interest in our products, and we do have a complete brake system for your Mercedes that will not only significantly outperform your existing system, but reduce un-sprung and rotating weight as well. It uses the same key components as our dedicated road racing systems, and is suitable for either daily street or dedicated track use. The system consists of patented F4 Tornado calipers, 13"x1.25" ProCast brake rotors on forged aluminum hats, brake pads in a compound of your choice, brackets, hardware, and tight-weave stainless steel braided lines. The system is designed to work with the stock master cylinder and hydraulic systems. I can help make a recommendation on brake pad compound for you once I know your intended usage. The system carries p/n 001-1051, and has a Racer cost of $2692.50. Under a current promotion, I can extend you 10% off that price."


Let me know if you want his email. Ill PM it to you.

320 dreamer

your thread on weight reduction got me searching for lightweight rotors. i have never heard of brakeman so the google search was on. i came across this thread and found it to be enlightening. not knocking the product at all just researching

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-braki...-analysis.html

i disregarded all the bs that shows up on this type of thread and found some info worth considering

austinholloman

Thanks for posting this, I am reading it now.

austinholloman

This entire post is about brakeman light weight race rotors they must not sell anymore. I asked about light weight rotors today and Cory told me they don't make them. He said they make a normal weight rotor and pad set for our cars but nothing light weight and this might be why! However, the entire brake setup located above, is a totally different product. It includes, their light weight rotors, calipers, and pads. Not just their light weight rotors and pads fitted to a stock caliper. Either way, this is good reading.

austinholloman

This also clears this up pretty well. I still think they have a winning product.

"I have The Brake Man rotors installed on my 2008 STI and I noticed an immediate performance difference when I ran The Brake Man rotors and the Brake Man pads. This performance difference wasn't limited to an improvement in acceleration and handling, but also from the fade resistance after multiple hard stops. However, this wasn't my first experience with The Brake Man product. I also ran them on my 2004 STI and experienced the same benefits after using spacers to align the rotors within the calipers. Recently, I tried The Brake Man calipers for the first time and posted some incredible lap times (with only Stage 1 and the Brake Man gear) around a local track especially compared with other highly modified cars racing in time attack. I only wish Snorky had experienced the same benefits that I did.

As my journal and Ben's journal will show (search for brake on the first page to find the relevant posts) and anyone following the discussions on the forum for the last 4 years will know, both Ben and I have worked closely with The Brake Man to adapt their racing kit for use on the STI.

There are two things that our experience taught me. The first is to follow their directions about what pads to run if you can't run The Brake Man pads and the second is to follow their instructions and make sure to deliver plenty of air to the rotors when running the rotors and recommended pads on the track. I know from personal experience that failing to follow their instructions means you can expect a very short useful life from the rotors (something none of us want). I can't imagine what would happen if someone failed to follow both instructions from the manufacturer.

At the moment, my car is at the body shop for some work, but when it gets back I will take a picture of the brake man rotors to show you what they should look like when you run the right pads with no air to them. They don't look like Snorky's rotors at all. In spite of my better judgment, I had an opportunity to go to the track and I still have yet to fabricate something to deliver air to the rotors or find a kit for the 08 STI.

When I contacted The Brake Man to discuss the development of the rear rotors, I had the chance to talk with Cory and Warren, both of whom were disappointed that Snorky didn't accurately represent the conversation that took place that day.

The Brake Man is a small company so I could understand when they declined my invitation to get online and explain braking and respond because they don't have the time to monitor and respond to every discussion that pops up on the Internet. They wanted me to let our members know that they are available by phone at 805-987-STOP (7867). They both expressed a strong willingness to answer any questions anyone might have about their products.


After that phone call yesterday, I received an unsolicited email from Cory:

Quote:
It is our understanding that there are people concerned with the lightweight molycarbide rotors for the STi. I would be happy to explain exactly why we provide the rotors as they are, and why there is no need for concern. I do not want to get into an internet quoting contest; as always before and now, the company phone number is no secret and I am more than happy to properly answer any questions for those who would care to call.

Our molycarbide rotors are not a new product for us. We have been successfully using them in racing applications and our complete systems for several years now, all the while continuing to refine the process to make a better rotor in all facets. The rotor is designed to fit standard 4", 4 3/4" and 6" racing brake pads, shapes that are commonly used by several manufacturers. The 4 3/4" pad is the one used by us in the Storm system for the STi and other applications. The performance of these rotors in our system generated demand for these rotors to be adapted to fit the stock Brembo calipers for those who were unable to afford our complete systems but still wanted the advantage of greatly reduced weight and better cooling. We have adapted our two-piece rotors to work with the stock calipers, and there are some compromises to be made.

I have no control over tolerances of the factory calipers or spindles; all of our rotors are held to very strict tolerances in regard to both hat and rotor dimensions, and rotors are blanchard ground perfectly flat before assembly as a unit. When these exact tolerances are applied to a mass production vehicle, some fitment may be necessary to ensure proper centering of the rotor. A shim kit was provided for this purpose with instructions for its use if necessary.

As far as pad overhang, the inboard face of the rotor, as stated, was designed for several racing brake pad shapes, and the stock STi pad has a minor overhang of material on the inboard pad. It is extremely simple to put a small 45 degree angle on the pad material of the two inboard pads to alleviate the buildup of pad material as the pads wear. This will in no way decrease the available brake torque of the system, and is so minor of a removal on only one of the two pads that it will also not noticeably decrease the thermal effiency of that pad. Please refer to my earlier email about the fundamentals of torque output and thermal efficiency of any given size brake pad.

Please also keep in mind that the factory pad shape already comes with a vertical 45 degree face on each side, which does not effect overall performance either.

As far as locating, the hat is drilled to locate on the lugs of either bolt pattern, not the center hole. There will be absolutely no movement of the rotor on the hub whatsoever when the wheels are installed and torqued, no matter what dynamic forces the hub and rotor see. If the user has the mechanical capability to do so, I can supply the hats with holes undersized so each lug hole can be hand finished to the exact lug size, as we do on our racing applications.

We do recommend that our pads be used with pur rotors, for reasons that are not sales-driven. We have done the research and devolopment with these rotors in this application, and know exactly which pad compounds and materials will deliver the most effective overall package, and work best with this specific rotor material.

The measurements in the thread are close enough to correct; that is how our rotors are made for our complete Storm systems, and how they must be adapted to fit the stock calipers. A detailed instruction sheet is provided with each set of rotors, as well as the hardware if it is necessary. I cannot understand the reluctance of a user to realize the minor adjustments we made to adapt a proven race component to a stock steet car, and the work that is necessary to ensure a proper fit for each application.

I am not sure why the gentleman in question is paraphrasing about the gist of our phone conversation; I made sure not only to hear his concerns but to set up a conference call with myself and the company president as well. We attempted to explain what I have outlined above, but it was not to the gentleman's satisfaction, so we agreed to take rotors back ourselves even though they had been used for some time and with other brake pads. I was led to believe in a letter attached to the rotors that while he was not satisfied with the particular product, he was satisfied with the manner in which we handled the issue. Why a month later that would have been portrayed otherwise, I do not know.

Our racing pedigree speaks for itself, and I like to think that our customer service is also of high quality. If anyone has any question regarding any of our products, they are always welcome to call me directly.




Respectfully,

Cory Lamarra

The Brake Man, Inc.
838 Calle Plano
Camarillo, Ca. 93012
805-987-STOP (7867)
TheBrakeMan911 [@] aol.com
www.TheBrakeMan.com


When Snorky expressed his concern about the pad lip to the The Brake Man, I asked them to explain how removing only a small amount of pad material on the inside pads doesn't affect brake torque or the thermal efficiency of the pad, or whether braking power is affected in this instance.

Quote:
This is very easily confused, but I want you to understand this so you know where Warren and I were coming from and what we were trying to explain.

Brake torque, or clamping force; when broken down, is a function of line pressure, piston size, and coefficient of friction of the brake pad. That is all. The amount of pad material only determines how much heat the system can dissipate and how long the material will last.
An example, assuming the exact same line pressure
Our small F3 4 piston caliper that has a small 4" #82 pad, with 1.75" pistons
Our larger F4 4 piston caliper that has the big 4 3/4" #82 pad, with 1.75" pistons
Which of the above puts out more brake torque? the big or small caliper?

They both produce the exact same amount of brake torque. This is because they have the same size pistons, the same line pressure, and pads with the same c/f.

The only benefit to a larger pad is that the more pad material there is the more thermally efficient the system will be, the wear rate will be much less, and the resistance to overheating and fade will be greater. This is why we use the F4 on the street perf. and road race stuff. The F4 pad can conduct much more heat away from the system and stand up to sustained temperatures for longer than the F3. The flipside is that we can run an F3 caliper on an 8500 HP dragster because you have the same clamping force as an F4 with much less size and weight, and temperature is not an issue in short runs.

This is a fundamental concept of brake performance, this does not just apply to Brake Man products.
An extreme example would be that if you took the pads out of stock Brembos on an STi, and ground 50% of the total material completely off the top and bottom of the pads, leaving only a small stripe of pad material in the center to contact the pistons. When re-installed, you would notice no difference whatsoever in braking power. Now obviously the pads would only last a few hard stops before fade and wear-out due to extreme heat buildup from the smaller amount of pad material; but I'm just making a point. Us telling someone to remove a 1/4" stripe of pad material on one pad makes absolutely no difference in brake performance, regardless of pad brand. If one didn't know what one was talking about, I could see how the appearance of less pad material would lead you to think there is less clamping force available but that's not the case.

Best regards,

Cory Lamarra

The Brake Man, Inc.
838 Calle Plano
Camarillo, Ca. 93012
805-987-STOP (7867)
TheBrakeMan911 [@] aol.com
The Brake Man.com - SiteIntro

I am confident that anyone who takes the time to understand this will understand more than they will ever need to know about braking. If you have any doubts, I also encourage you to call these guys. They are enthusiasts like us and have a true passion for it. One thing that continues to get overlooked is that these rotors are considered Time Attack rotors. They are far and away the lightest rotors on the market that fit under a 17" wheel and under the stock calipers.

If you want to learn more about brakes, I strongly recommend watching this video that we did at Sema back in 2005 when we discovered The Brake Man (yes, I was an amateur then and very uncomfortable in front of the camera):

The Brake Man Interview - Part 1
Views: 21,252


The Brake Man Interview - Part 2
Views: 14,245


The Brake Man Interview - Part 3
Views: 13,725


The Brake Man Interview - Part 4
Views: 13,895


I know of dozens of IWSTi owners who absolutely love their rotors and recommend them. You can search the forum or scan these threads to see for yourself:
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/vendor-g...-now-pics.html

The BrakeMan Thread: Looking for a new two piece high quality brake setup?


Good luck, its a lot of reading and watching, but you will learn more about brakes."

Outlawlatemodel

A lot of great info, but in reality unless your at the track alot you dont need an over the top calipers, would almost be better to have track dedicated pads and street dedicated pads, there is huge write ups about unspring weight everone goes and spends tons on light weight brakes then goes out and buys heavy tires go figure, on less you are track dedicating your car go with pads, it takes a really good driver that spends tons of time at the track to even think about noticing a few pounds of unsprung, im sure i am gonna get a lot of heat from you guys about this how you gonna be mega fast by saving a couple pounds on unsprung weight. the brakes on your c43 are pretty good with only hands full of cars that are better. I race cars and have pulled up on and passed many guys with mega brakes with my tiny brakes. But its your dough, instead why not think about getting 4 piston calipers from a later model car that says like mbz from a car that takes 330mm rotors, may have to use a couple shims or have spacers made but you will have dust covers around the caliper pistons,

Chappy

My only concern would be the hassle of having to overhaul the calipers yearly on a mostly street application.

Outlawlatemodel

yea any real race brakes will not have dust covers, with really good pads yep tons of dust, thats way i think a better way is with 4 piston oe brake calipers

austinholloman

Are you guys talking about something like this setup listed here? Would this be better than ours?
https://mbworld.org/forums/w210-amg/...nt-brakes.html

Chappy

I'm not.

You mention Brakeman brakes. Personally, I would have trouble justifying the headache of rebuilding the brake calpiers on the F4 Tornado calipers yearly.

For a track junky (speedybenz), these brakes may make sense.

austinholloman

However, for DD use do you think these would or would not benefit the driver? I want to go to a larger brake setup but I don't want the pad to have to be heated before they are working properly.

Chappy

Not at all in my opinion (the W208/55 and C43 share the same suspension and brakes).

For daily driving, the stock AMG brakes are more than adequate. You are better off spending the $2500+ on sets of good tires before doing this brake upgrade.

As I said before, if you are mostly tracking your car, this may be a worthwhile investment. Look at it this way....would you install a Quaife just for daily driving street use?

austinholloman

With the 5.4 swap, yes but not with this motor no. I do think the Quaife could add to DD fun though. I plan on doing maybe 6 track events a year but mostly a DD car. Are the 4 piston brake setups better than ours or are ours pretty good?

Chappy

I just posted the C43 Motorweek video on another thread. 60-0 was just 95 feet, according to their test.

I've tracked my CLK55 about a dozen times, and the brakes have never been the problem area - selecting good track tires is my primary focus, then brakes, then LSD, then firmer suspension.

By the time you've done all that, you could have afforded a faster AMG.

austinholloman

What tires are you using on the track? I couldn't go any firmer on suspension than what I've got for DD use. It would snap my spine. Could go for some stronger sway bars. The LSD will be coming next year, after 5.4 goes in. This car is pretty much just going to hold a spot in my garage for the rest of my life. I am planning to replace if as a DD with a C63 in two years, when their prices drop down more. I want to be able to take this car to a track event and have fun, drive it on the weekends and not brake my back and take it to a car meet and turn some heads. Just a really big expensive toy because I love this body style and car... I would NEVER replace it with a new or faster AMG, the w203 C32 and C55 were well with in my price range when I was shopping but I still went with then car instead. This car will stick with me for many, many years.

DRBC43AMG

Before doing any serious and most of the time costly upgrades, I would strongly recommend signing up and doing some race driving lessons and training. That is worth $$$ and you will be surprised the confidence you gain and some tricks to keep you out of deep trouble. Then, go out and enjoy yourself as "practice makes perfect"

Chappy

Couldn't agree more!!

Chappy

For the last two years, I've been using Azenis 615s (235/40-17 front, 255/40-17 rear), and they're grippy. However, they do get greasy after a few laps and you have to be judicious with your speed after that.

My next set of tires will be Nitto NT01s. They come in that size and are 'relatively' cheap for R comps.

My street tires are PS2s.

Chappy

Good luck finding some. I think even speedybenz had to have some custom made.

Outlawlatemodel

The one guy says S500 calipers are straight bolt on, you may have a look, yea no reason for an lsd on the street

austinholloman

LSD shouldn't help on the street but that depends on how you drive on the street when no one else is around. The LSD in my M3 comes in handy plenty on the street. I plan to take my car to the drag strip later this year to get the 4.3 times before I go to the 5.4. From what people are telling me, having the LSD with the 5.4 really help get the power to the ground. I can see how.

Chappy

....nothing wrong with wanting mods....

austinholloman

Will these fit our cars? I would like to go to a 4 piston setup where rotors dont cost $225ea.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MERCE...Q5fAccessories

or these
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Merce...Q5fAccessories

Or these
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/00-02...Q5fAccessories
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/00-02...Q5fAccessories

Cl55 setup not cheap:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/03-06...Q5fAccessories


This is a 6 pot kit
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/KIDO-...Q5fAccessories

Outlawlatemodel

you already have two piston on the rear

tasho3

Guys i think the brakes that we already have in our cars are just perfect for street DD, unless you plan to track your car, which lets be honest our cars are not really built for tracks!