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THE END OF THE C43?!?

 
Old 04-29-2019, 07:40 PM
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THE END OF THE C43?!?

After the news today from AMG chief Tobias Moers in an interview with Autocar that the next generation c63 (and even GT models) will most likely have all wheel drive and potentially a 6 cylinder in the c63s, I wonder if that could spell the end of the c43? Or the end of the c63...or both? Maybe a C53, like the E53 could be whatís in store for the AMG c-class cars?

I mean if the C63 becomes an AWD six, even with 500 horsepower, whatís the point of the the c43? To me the fact the 43 is a 4matic makes it that much more endearing to own over the c63. (in addition to the lower cost, lower cost of ownership, and better accessibility of the c43)

On the other hand Iím sure 63 owners feel the same about the reasons for their choice over the 43. (Rwd, v8 sound, performance, better track car etc)

At least this is something that is several years out, but still...Would you pay more ($80-90k) for an Awd 6 cylinder c63 even with 80-100 more horsepower over a $60-$70k) c43? Maybe slightly more for a C53?. Hmmm not sure....
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Old 04-29-2019, 08:08 PM
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Of course the C43 is ending, they just came out with the 53 and a whole new inline-6 engine...
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Old 04-29-2019, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jonathan358 View Post
Of course the C43 is ending, they just came out with the 53 and a whole new inline-6 engine...
So they put the inline six in instead of the v6. Why would that mean the end of be 43?

But yeah a 6 and awd in c63 probably does...
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Old 04-29-2019, 08:57 PM
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AMG has always been changing their models. C36, C43, C32, C55, C63, C43/450/63

This is not new.
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Old 04-29-2019, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by PFEAMG View Post
So they put the inline six in instead of the v6. Why would that mean the end of be 43?

But yeah a 6 and awd in c63 probably does...
The A35 and A45 both also share a 2.0Liter and AWD.

S63 and S65 also both AWD.

The C43 was always meant to be a cheaper alternative to the C63. It was not meant to be a baby E63 or whatever. So this news shouldnt surprise you at all.
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Old 04-29-2019, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by waisoserious View Post
The A35 and A45 both also share a 2.0Liter and AWD.

S63 and S65 also both AWD.

The C43 was always meant to be a cheaper alternative to the C63. It was not meant to be a baby E63 or whatever. So this news shouldnt surprise you at all.
agreed, and now the c43 is probably going bye bye. I'm not surprised about the change in nomenclature. (If that even happens). But was surprised a bit about a 6 in the 63. (Meaning no v8 option for any c class)

Would you pay c63 prices now for a c53 (if thatís what the decide to call it) with an in-line 6?
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Old 04-29-2019, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by PFEAMG View Post
agreed, and now the c43 is probably going bye bye. I'm not surprised about the change in nomenclature. (If that even happens). But was surprised a bit about a 6 in the 63. (Meaning no v8 option for any c class)

Would you pay c63 prices now for a c53 (if thatís what the decide to call it) with an in-line 6?
Stuff like that is just want arrogant C63 owners say to rationalize their disdain for the 43 while they try to fit in with the more expensive E63 crowd.

In 5 years they will say real amgs are only twinturbo'd hybrids, not single twinscroll hybrids like the 53 (probably).
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Old 04-29-2019, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by waisoserious View Post
Stuff like that is just want arrogant C63 owners say to rationalize their disdain for the 43 while they try to fit in with the more expensive E63 crowd.

In 5 years they will say real amgs are only twinturbo'd hybrids, not single twinscroll hybrids like the 53 (probably).
Lol that's probably true. But you raise a good point. Many of those folks today, arrogant or not are buying the c63 with that v8 due to it's perceived pedigree. I suppose if it's still a hand built 6, that would satisfy the potential c63 future buyer.
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Old 04-29-2019, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by PFEAMG View Post
Lol that's probably true. But you raise a good point. Many of those folks today, arrogant or not are buying the c63 with that v8 due to it's perceived pedigree. I suppose if it's still a hand built 6, that would satisfy the potential c63 future buyer.
Youre missing the point. The point is as long as theirs costs more than yours, they will always point to something else about the differences because they dont want to admit its all about price.
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Old 04-29-2019, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by waisoserious View Post
Youre missing the point. The point is as long as theirs costs more than yours, they will always point to something else about the differences because they dont want to admit its all about price.
I hear ya, but in this case i disagree. For example, many folks who say the 43 isnít a real Amg isnít because the c63 cost more. Itís because they feel the c63 is something special....it has a high output hand built V8 engine built in Affalterbach.

How do I know that? because I was one of them. I was going to buy a c63 coupe. I was convinced the c43 was not a real amg because of its engine. It had nothing do with price. I could afford a c63 or an e53 (a E63s was bit out of my budget). Until I found out how inaccessible a new c63 was at the time, was when I considered test driving the 43 and the e53. In my case I loved the c43. And imo, after several test drives and further research, itís a true amg.

But not everyone is going to feel that way. I think if MB puts a robot built 6 engine in the c63, get rid of he c43 offering and keep the c63 prices they will lose a lot of sales.
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Old 04-29-2019, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by waisoserious View Post
The A35 and A45 both also share a 2.0Liter and AWD.

S63 and S65 also both AWD.

The C43 was always meant to be a cheaper alternative to the C63. It was not meant to be a baby E63 or whatever. So this news shouldnt surprise you at all.
The S65 is RWD, the S63 is AWD.

I really like the idea of an AWD C63, and it makes sense because the new M3 is rumored to have AWD as well. If the next-gen C63 retains the V8 and gets AWD, it will be a beast! But with all of the engine downsizing/hybridization/electrification, anything could happen in the next few years.
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Old 04-30-2019, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by SoCalC43 View Post
The S65 is RWD, the S63 is AWD.

I really like the idea of an AWD C63, and it makes sense because the new M3 is rumored to have AWD as well. If the next-gen C63 retains the V8 and gets AWD, it will be a beast! But with all of the engine downsizing/hybridization/electrification, anything could happen in the next few years.
oh yeah, a awd c63 w/ the v8 would be awesome!

Be cool to see the c43 become the c53 with the new in-line 6!
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Old 04-30-2019, 02:53 AM
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Here is how I see this playing out..It is all supply vs demand vs profit margin...
35 and 45s accross all the current ranges remain in production..
All 43's become 53's w/ setup same as E53
Only 63's that remain will be E, CLS,S,G,GLE,GT (w/V8 power)
All others will go away...
AMG has been preparing everyone for the whole handbuilt gimmick going away with anticipation of the Project ONE
Its bread and butter is going to become Hybridized/Turbo/AWD...The 63's will just serve as a "Hallmark" of the brand...Some of the engine builders are going to have to find new positions in AMG...
JUST LIKE M DID ~20 YEARS AGO...

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Old 04-30-2019, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by MarcusDubya77 View Post
Here is how I see this playing out..It is all supply vs demand vs profit margin...
35 and 45s accross all the current ranges remain in production..
All 43's become 53's w/ setup same as E53
Only 63's that remain will be E, CLS,S,GLE,GT (w/V8 power)
All others will go away...
AMG has been preparing everyone for the whole handbuilt gimmick going away with anticipation of the Project ONE
Its bread and butter is going to become Hybridized/Turbo/AWD...The ^3's will just serve as a "Hallmark" of the brand...Some of the engine builders are going to have to find new position in AMG...
JUST LIKE M DID ~20 YEARS AGO...
I think youíre spot on! Itís what would make the most sense imo. But we shall see.

Might make the current c63 owners appreciate their cars even more!
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Old 04-30-2019, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by MarcusDubya77 View Post
Here is how I see this playing out..It is all supply vs demand vs profit margin...
35 and 45s accross all the current ranges remain in production..
All 43's become 53's w/ setup same as E53
Only 63's that remain will be E, CLS,S,G,GLE,GT (w/V8 power)
All others will go away...
AMG has been preparing everyone for the whole handbuilt gimmick going away with anticipation of the Project ONE
Its bread and butter is going to become Hybridized/Turbo/AWD...The 63's will just serve as a "Hallmark" of the brand...Some of the engine builders are going to have to find new positions in AMG...
JUST LIKE M DID ~20 YEARS AGO...
I doubt the C63 is going away. It's by far the best selling AMG at the moment, and it's why AMG gave it all the attention for the 2019 facelift with all the driving dynamics improvements etc. Tobias Moers has said they need to rethink the C63, though as far as electrified powertrain goes. A rumor has emerged from a German source that it might become a 4-cylinder hybrid. That might sound crazy at first, but take a look at the new 4-cylinder DTM engine for the 2019 season. It could well be a drivetrain more akin to the Project One with a high revving (think ~9000 rpm) 4 or 6 cylinder engine, coupled with a e-motor setup that powers the rear axle directly and perhaps another e-motor to power the front axle. That would be different from how the 53s are setup. Going to a smaller engine would save a lot of weight to offset the battery and e-motors. The new DTM engine is only 85kg compared to the 148kg of the previous V8. There's more to the top AMG models than power and number of cylinders. The 43/53 may not get an active locking rear axle like the C43 is lacking today and they may not get the switchable 4WD with drift mode like the C43 doesn't have today. Those things might be reserved to the 63s and maybe higher trim 53s. If I remember correctly the GT53 4-door does have the drift mode like the GT63 4-door, but the E53 doesn't. We'll have to wait and see.

The 43s and 53s are really more daily livable AMGs that aren't quite as high strung, but also don't deliver the same kind of driving thrills that the 63s do. ESP and AMG Dynamics setups are different in the 63s for example and as said, the 43s and 53s may not get the drift mode, except for the GT53.

New DTM engine ****:


Last edited by superswiss; 04-30-2019 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 04-30-2019, 12:28 PM
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If the C63 came in 4matic twinned to the 4.0 V8 I would buy one in an instant !
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Old 04-30-2019, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by superswiss View Post
I doubt the C63 is going away. It's by far the best selling AMG at the moment, and it's why AMG gave it all the attention for the 2019 facelift with all the driving dynamics improvements etc. Tobias Moers has said they need to rethink the C63, though as far as electrified powertrain goes. A rumor has emerged from a German source that it might become a 4-cylinder hybrid. That might sound crazy at first, but take a look at the new 4-cylinder DTM engine for the 2019 season. It could well be a drivetrain more akin to the Project One with a high revving (think ~9000 rpm) 4 or 6 cylinder engine, coupled with a e-motor setup that powers the rear axle directly and perhaps another e-motor to power the front axle. That would be different from how the 53s are setup. Going to a smaller engine would save a lot of weight to offset the battery and e-motors. The new DTM engine is only 85kg compared to the 148kg of the previous V8. There's more to the top AMG models than power and number of cylinders. The 43/53 may not get an active locking rear axle like the C43 is lacking today and they may not get the switchable 4WD with drift mode like the C43 doesn't have today. Those things might be reserved to the 63s and maybe higher trim 53s. If I remember correctly the GT53 4-door does have the drift mode like the GT63 4-door, but the E53 doesn't. We'll have to wait and see.

The 43s and 53s are really more daily livable AMGs that aren't quite as high strung, but also don't deliver the same kind of driving thrills that the 63s do. ESP and AMG Dynamics setups are different in the 63s for example and as said, the 43s and 53s may not get the drift mode, except for the GT53.

New DTM engine ****:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlfDbvg2be8
Lol you are insane. That will never happen.
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Old 04-30-2019, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by PFEAMG View Post
So they put the inline six in instead of the v6. Why would that mean the end of be 43?

But yeah a 6 and awd in c63 probably does...
The end of the 43 is because they have a 53 to put the I-6 into.
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Old 04-30-2019, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by jonathan358
Lol you are insane. That will never happen.
We'll see. The source where this is coming from apparently has been on the money in the past.
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Old 04-30-2019, 04:38 PM
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Lol nah C63 is going to stay 4.0TT V8 it will just get AWD with drift mode like E63s.
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Old 04-30-2019, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by raudiace4 View Post
Lol nah C63 is going to stay 4.0TT V8 it will just get AWD with drift mode like E63s.
That would be awesome, but that's unlikely to happen. Future AMGs will have some form of electrification combined with smaller more efficient engines with less emissions. They will also get a lot quieter. I encourage you to start following the EU regulations that are coming down the pike over the next few years. This year the Germans were struggling badly to meet the new WLTP regulations. Many 2019 models were delayed due to not meeting the requirements. VW/Audi seemed have been hit the hardest and had to go as far as stopping production for some of their performance models such as the RS3 and TTRS. The WLTP regulations are set to get significantly more stringent in 2020, unless something changes and then more stringent every year after. That's where this is all coming from.

Regarding noise, the EU put new noise regulations in effect back in 2016 which lowered the allowed exhaust noise limit to 74 db (A) from the previous 85. Per the new regulations the limits will get progressively lower between now and 2026 when the limit will be 68 db (A). The EU is on full assault to extinct the internal combustion engine. As opposed to the USA, the EU is committed to cut CO2 emissions in half per the Paris agreement. As a petrol head I certainly don't like it, but things are changing rapidly. AMG was the last holdout with a V8 in this segment. My current daily is a 2013 Audi RS5 with a sweet 8500 rpm redline naturally aspirated V8. It's gone now. The new RS5 has a V6 biturbo and sounds like a hairdryer. This is why I ordered a 2019 C63S Coupe.

There's one possible scenario where we in North America might continue to enjoy larger engines. And that is if AMG decides to offer different engines in North America. This is what Audi is doing now. All S models in Europe have gone diesel as of this year. The S4/5 were re-released in Europe as V6 diesels with a mild hybrid system and electric turbo charger. In the USA they continue to get sold with the previous petrol engine. The all-new S6/7 have the same diesel powertrain as the S4/5 in Europe, and in the USA they are getting the 2.9 V6TT used in the new RS5, which is down in size and number of cylinders from the previous 4.0 V8TT Audi was using in the S6/7/8 and RS7. The RS7 might keep the V8, but that hasn't been confirmed yet. Don't think AMG is immune from this.

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Old 04-30-2019, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jonathan358 View Post
The end of the 43 is because they have a 53 to put the I-6 into.
yeah that could happen. But my op is also about amg talking about putting a 6 the 63 (nothing is definite of course). So it really could be the end of both of them at least as we know them today.
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Old 04-30-2019, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by superswiss View Post
That would be awesome, but that's unlikely to happen. Future AMGs will have some form of electrification combined with smaller more efficient engines with less emissions. They will also get a lot quieter. I encourage you to start following the EU regulations that are coming down the pike over the next few years. This year the Germans were struggling badly to meet the new WLTP regulations. Many 2019 models were delayed due to not meeting the requirements. VW/Audi seemed have been hit the hardest and had to go as far as stopping production for some of their performance models such as the RS3 and TTRS. The WLTP regulations are set to get significantly more stringent in 2020, unless something changes and then more stringent every year after. That's where this is all coming from.

Regarding noise, the EU put new noise regulations in effect back in 2016 which lowered the allowed exhaust noise limit to 74 db (A) from the previous 85. Per the new regulations the limits will get progressively lower between now and 2026 when the limit will be 68 db (A). The EU is on full assault to extinct the internal combustion engine. As opposed to the USA, the EU is committed to cut CO2 emissions in half per the Paris agreement. As a petrol head I certainly don't like it, but things are changing rapidly. AMG was the last holdout with a V8 in this segment. My current daily is a 2013 Audi RS5 with a sweet 8500 rpm redline naturally aspirated V8. It's gone now. The new RS5 has a V6 biturbo and sounds like a hairdryer. This is why I ordered a 2019 C63S Coupe.

There's one possible scenario where we in North America might continue to enjoy larger engines. And that is if AMG decides to offer different engines in North America. This is what Audi is doing now. All S models in Europe have gone diesel as of this year. The S4/5 were re-released in Europe as V6 diesels with a mild hybrid system and electric turbo charger. In the USA they continue to get sold with the previous petrol engine. The all-new S6/7 have the same diesel powertrain as the S4/5 in Europe, and in the USA they are getting the 2.9 V6TT used in the new RS5, which is down in size and number of cylinders from the previous 4.0 V8TT Audi was using in the S6/7/8 and RS7. The RS7 might keep the V8, but that hasn't been confirmed yet. Don't think AMG is immune from this.
Well stated. Next gen C63 will have a 6 cylinder with some hybrid component(s) as will all real and non-real AMG cars. It's where it's all going regardless.
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Old 05-01-2019, 01:36 AM
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AutoBILD, a German magazine, did publish some article speculating a 4 pot into the 63, but I highly doubt it. I didn't say the end of the C63, to be clear. I said with the V-8 setup. Whatever the 63 morphs into is going to have to be dramatically different than the 53 if MB wants it to survive. The C43 took a huge chunk of sales, and I can imagine the C53 will do even better. The C63 cannot simply be a C53 with a drift mode..The next 5-7 years are going to be quite interesting for MB.
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Old 05-01-2019, 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by superswiss View Post
That would be awesome, but that's unlikely to happen. Future AMGs will have some form of electrification combined with smaller more efficient engines with less emissions. They will also get a lot quieter. I encourage you to start following the EU regulations that are coming down the pike over the next few years. This year the Germans were struggling badly to meet the new WLTP regulations. Many 2019 models were delayed due to not meeting the requirements. VW/Audi seemed have been hit the hardest and had to go as far as stopping production for some of their performance models such as the RS3 and TTRS. The WLTP regulations are set to get significantly more stringent in 2020, unless something changes and then more stringent every year after. That's where this is all coming from.

Regarding noise, the EU put new noise regulations in effect back in 2016 which lowered the allowed exhaust noise limit to 74 db (A) from the previous 85. Per the new regulations the limits will get progressively lower between now and 2026 when the limit will be 68 db (A). The EU is on full assault to extinct the internal combustion engine. As opposed to the USA, the EU is committed to cut CO2 emissions in half per the Paris agreement. As a petrol head I certainly don't like it, but things are changing rapidly. AMG was the last holdout with a V8 in this segment. My current daily is a 2013 Audi RS5 with a sweet 8500 rpm redline naturally aspirated V8. It's gone now. The new RS5 has a V6 biturbo and sounds like a hairdryer. This is why I ordered a 2019 C63S Coupe.

There's one possible scenario where we in North America might continue to enjoy larger engines. And that is if AMG decides to offer different engines in North America. This is what Audi is doing now. All S models in Europe have gone diesel as of this year. The S4/5 were re-released in Europe as V6 diesels with a mild hybrid system and electric turbo charger. In the USA they continue to get sold with the previous petrol engine. The all-new S6/7 have the same diesel powertrain as the S4/5 in Europe, and in the USA they are getting the 2.9 V6TT used in the new RS5, which is down in size and number of cylinders from the previous 4.0 V8TT Audi was using in the S6/7/8 and RS7. The RS7 might keep the V8, but that hasn't been confirmed yet. Don't think AMG is immune from this.
Let me say only one thing. Iím glad that weíre getting our cars this year and not 2 years later...
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