KiwiRobbie

I really think calling a Radical SR8 a production car is stretching things a little far. The McLaren F1 was a prototype not the actual production car, it does (like the other 4 prototypes) differ from the production F1. The SLR 722 GTR is not a street legal production vehicle so it can't be included, it's like the Ferrari FXX or the Maserati MC12 Corsa. The Loaded CSL whilst not being a production car is road legal, people are always running modded road legal cars around the ring and setting fast times.

What I would really like to see set times at the ring are an Enzo, F1 LM, Veyron, CLK GTR, 911 GT1 and what I think could (or should) be the fastest of the lot a Dauer 962 LM, since the current outright lap record was set in a 956 and the Dauer has more power I think it could in the right hands (Walter Rohrl or Horst von Saurma) could give it a serious nudge.

chiphomme

I actually think the Merc is far easier to get moving but its the handling that kills it. The bimmer is just a better car in that enviroment. I keep going back and forth on what I'd prefer. I don't bring my cars to the track but handling is still important to me.
I love Mercedes power and BMW handling. And conversely I don't care for Mercedes handling (too sloppy) and BMW power(too much work to get it going).
The stig(or any pro driver) will get more out of the M3 than the C63 on a track. But since I don't drive on a track it's not that important.

coded

Totally agree. Bmw could also go for big cubes up front like the Merc. It isn't rocket science that a 6.2 litre motor has more mumbo than a 4.0 litre motor. Even if they put the 5.0 litre M5 motor somehow up front ( I say somehow as it is a v10 , pretty sure Hartge have modded a 3 series sedan to have this motor ) the chassis would be more than capable of controlling the power and it would absolutely walk all over the C63 in every aspect.

drho2004

+2

I mean really, can we get a show of hands how many people actually TRACK their cars? be it a M3 or an AMG or RS4? Seriously, so the M3 smoked the c63 on the track. So what? This was I think expected to most of us here. To me, the C63 would get my money for the simple fact that it is the most 'daily' usable car between the m3 and the c63, the rs4 would be a close second. I am pretty sure that most 'races' for this type of cars are from a stop light, and in this sense torque wins. simple.

Fifth Ring

hand

And I reiterate my point. If you do NOT track your car, then for street use there is nothing you'll be able to do with the M3 that you cannot do with the C63. The cornering limits and balance that give the M3 an advantage on a track are never approached on the street.

coded

Certainly.

If a very harsh ride and a completely invasive traction control system are your thing then by all means get the C63. I personally prefer a smooth ride for a daily driver.

AWDman

hand.

5th. i liked your "neither fish nor fowl" comment in a prior post. my thoughts were drifting along similar lines past few months.

coded

well what a surprise that you would vote that way in a MB forum !

Real world sales will be the extreme opposite.

LanuckRS4

Professional what?

coded

Professional BS artist.

Fifth Ring

If "real world sales" determine success, then we're all wrong. The Camry and Accord are clearly superior to the M3, C63 and RS4.

What we're saying here is that FOR US (disregarding what the lemmings are doing), there are track-worthy cars, and there are street-worthy cars, and while you can make a car that's pretty good in both arenas, as you reach a certain point, you have to forfeit one or the other. Given that 99.999% of the car's use is on the street, then why give the "win" to a car that's superior on track? Better yet, why spend $85,000 on a car that attempts to do it all, when you can have one car that's optimized for street use and another optimized for track use, and probably spend less?

The answer is basically image and ego. Why own a big gun? Why have a wine cellar? Or a Rolex watch?

drho2004

+1

Very good points. 'Most' people dont care that a car go around the twisties. what most people see of the car is on the street, in my case down PCH. were most of the 'races' are from red light to red light, not even a 1/4 mile. and thats how people get their bragging right. for example, a while back a friend of mine had a pretty souped up 1987 Buick Grand National. Fast thing--on a straight line..went to a GN meet up in Vegas, down the strip he challenged some old guy in a Dodge SRT-10 viper.needless to say he smoked the Viper from red light to red light. The look on the Viper guy's face was priceless. Im sure in the 'twisties' the viper wouuld have owned the GN, but how often do u pull up and say 'ill race you...but first let me find a track'

bensitto

+2 makes sense.

AWDman

exactly....picture this- 2 guys duking it out on track with c63 and m3..and an elise comes up on them and blitzes both and leaves them in the dust.

smjc_99

But fifth ring dont u think amg in the process of making a good road handling car made the ride too harsh resulting in a bad road car?

Ofcourse I am assuming that the reviews are stating accurately that the ride is uncomfortable as a daily driver

Fifth Ring

Better yet, someone in a fully track-prepped, $10,000, 1987 Porsche 944 turbo!

You need to ride in a full-on race car to realize how soft and quiet street cars are.

Fifth Ring

That's what the reviews say. I'd reserve judgment until I test drive one - which is likely to be.... never?

Honestly, my next car could be a small diesel SUV or an E55 AMG.

silence

it is too bad the C63 doesn't outhandle the M3... since that was the main goal of it's production (as stated everywhere in the literature)

If i wanted a 'softer' car i might go back to driving an audi again and go with the S5-

AWDman

ditto.

note the ml320 cdi towing capacity is now (or may always have been- unofficially) 7200 lbs. more than enough for the 944 and a steel trailer.

Fifth Ring

Sleeper "small" tow vehicle: 2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited with a 3.0 liter diesel engine (Mercedes's Hardware!). 7,400 lb. towing capacity. All for under $40,000. And then you can chip it!

AWDman

i'm thinking of going to vir with trackdaze 3/4-5. 2 days, 30x4 each day, $375.

Fifth Ring

That's a good value! For 2008 I'm going to do VIR once (not sure when), Summit at least twice, and if it works out, I'm going to try that new track in Millville, NJ (near the Jersey Shore). I've got a lot of buddies in the AudiClub, and I usually meet them at VIR. Mostly, I try to keep the events to weekend days.

I'm ordering a bunch of suspension stuff for the '44 and will hope to have something worth driving in the Spring!

coded

I am comparing sales of the C63 to the M3. Afterall this is the name of the game. MB want the c63 to outsell the M3. It will not even come close.

coded

Yes it was their aim but they failed.

C63 is a failure in many many respects.

Fifth Ring

Exactly. Clearly and indisputably a failure. They should pull it from the showroom floors all over the country immediately. Well, first wait until next Spring when it first hits the showroom floors. THEN pull it off as a failure!!!



It would be a dream to sell more C63s than M3s, but it's not just the car at stake. The M3 is an icon and based on that alone it will sell many times the units. The C63 will be like the C32 and C55, and underappreciated, great car. MB will refine the lumps and it'll be fantastic. It'll never sell like the M3 because it is not the M3.