spr

Pretty interesting how on the track Tiff was really getting it sideways and sawing on the wheel where the other guy was being smooth. Either it was that much of a pig to stay at that speed v. the BMR or he was screwing around too much which he is known for-

Also if you're comparing track cars it would be the DTM v. the GTR versons of MB and BMW respectively-

dokotela

er...cylinder head is it? its the "champ" here. better check your head gasket, i think its blown, cos you seem to have a miss-interpretation of what i was getting at. the DTM TRACK car was what i was referring to. hence the use of the words track tuned. i wasnt referring to suspension only. and if the csl is beemers answer to the dtm track car, which it could very well be given the lighweight components and removal of luxuries, then the beemer stands no chance. M = Mighty but AMG = Al-Mighty-G
road car vs road car, its a close call cos not all roads are designed as the fifth gear or top gear tracks.

Cylinder Head

iTrader: (1)

Once again, there is NO SUCH THING as a C63 DTM. Doesn't exist. DTM cars are not production cars, therefore there is no comparison. I'll even clue you in on my awesome research tool that I use to disprove these interesting claims of yours....

Here goes......

www.google.com

Fifth Ring

Really? The M3 is the CLOSEST thing to a track car that you can buy from a dealership floor. A couple may be better (Lotus Elise, Vette Z06), but the entire car is set up to run on track, at speed. Lots of cars, including most AMGs can handle track use.

But as you note, a DTM is not a "track tuned" car. It is a ground-up, space frame, custom race vehicle with bodywork that looks like a stock vehicle. It is a meaningless comparison or claim. The M3 CSL is not even close to a DTM. It's just a lightened M3.

But, to bring some rationality to the argument, AMGs are equipped to be more comfortable and "cruiser" oriented. You can upgrade tires and suspension and likely match the performance of an M3. Many of us have upgraded suspension and tires on C32/C55s.

Cylinder Head

iTrader: (1)

I'd say the E36 and E46 (maybe) models fit into the model of "off the sales-floor track car" but certainly not this new E92 chassis. The car has gotten far too pudgy to be put into those terms and has moved ever so slightly upmarket to make room for the 1-series, the proposed M-version of which (or even the 135) would make an EXCELLENT track car because it retains the most important feature of a track car- light weight.

Carl Lassiter

GT3 and GT3 RS. F430 Scuderia. Gallardo Superlegerra.
Not being smart just pointing out these superior track cars.

Carl Lassiter

But this cruiser status is jeapordized by the C63 which is trying to be a jack of all trades but seemingly failing.

Modded doesn't really come into the equation as that will just add to the melee of views.

E92ftw

Well thats a load of bullsh*t. Have fun in biased land.

Cylinder Head

iTrader: (1)

He's obviously never experienced a 4 wheel drift while bouncing off an 8250rpm redline while an AMG driver sits in the passenger seat peeing himself. (PM oldgixxer if you doubt me.)

E92ftw

Are you blind? Or do you just like to stick words in people's mouths. Please point out where he says that the CSL is the CLOSEST thing to a track car that you can buy from A dealership floor. He clearly states that the best BIMMER to use on a track is the CSL.

sprins

Oh man, you take this crap way too serious.

Lighten up a bit.

Actually I have, more or less unintentially. Then again I was driving myself in my own SL55.

Fifth Ring

I'll type slowly so you can understand me. My response was remarking on TWO different posts.

To the gentleman who said that the M3 was not a track car, I noted that it was very much built to withstand track rigors.

To the gentleman who said that he would compare the M3 CSL to a C63 DTM car, I noted that the two cars are entirely different animals.

(I just hope this economic recession sends some of these new money characters back to the Honda/Subaru forums. It's hard to have a rational discussion.)

Carl Lassiter

Agreed.

"E92ftw"- you've got to read more closely.

GBlansten

As a blind man who loves to stick words in people's mouths I can't help but be amused at how uncanny your comments would have been if directed towards me. They were not so I'll move on.

ItalianStallion

This is a pretty pathetic argument. Its fact vs feeling with some of you guys.

Have they come out with Nurburgring times yet for the C63 and E92 M3? Not that the Nordschleife is the end-all be-all for car performance, but I definitely think it will put things into perspective.

Fifth Ring

I agree. The Nordschleife is a very valid measure of a performance car, provided that conditions are fair. Of course, something as simple as OEM tire choice can have a huge effect.

CynCarvin32

The CLS is just a M3 that is a bit less heavy. But in reality its no track car. I agree with most things you say around here but on this track car topic I have to say no bmw is a track car until its stripped to the bone, has no interior, a roll cage, sound insulation is crapped off, has 600+ lb springs, etc etc etc. Having driven many modestly upgraded E36 cars at the track (still used for daily driving however) they are not very impressive.

The E36 M3 was a pig stock and only was a great track car once it was stripped down and upgraded all around. I use a E36 for track use and its nothing like it was stock but it is an absolute BLAST. The E36 chassis is maybe the best chassis around for building a track car. But to say an E36 was a great track car because it was light is not exactly true.

The 135i was set to be a great car until i realized it is less than 200 lbs lighter than a 335i. At that weight I will take the big version of the car just because it offers more space. 100 pounds is a lot at 2400 lbs but at 3500 lbs who cares its still a pig right?

All that said, the M3 (E92 and E90) is hands down a better car in my mind than a C63. I went in a C63 recently and I wanted to die when I heard the motor and felt the seats. But seeing how terrible it does when pushed hard makes me realize its not what I was hoping for. I am a big MB fan but my passion for performance sedans has been moving towards BMW. The C63 did not slow down that transfer of passion like I figured it would.

CynCarvin32

True all around but we need to realize that this track favors high power cars. SO if the C63 ends up slower than the M3 it really will be slower on a smaller track with fewer mile long WOT sections.

I patiently await some solid figures as for lap times. It should be very interesting.

ItalianStallion

I just watched the vid...it seemed the driver of the C63 was going out of his way to drift the car while the M3 was shown to be nice and glued. Makes me wonder if BMW paid them off to drive like that...because seriously, its so obvious they were making the C63 go sideways on purpose.

But whatever the reason or the outcome of the endless debate (AMG vs M), that C63 put on one hell of a smoke show . Can't wait to see one going sideways on the streets in person. Must be a sight to behold (and hear).

RRnelcheeze

great video. im sure with some adjustments and driver practice, that 63 would be as precise as the M3. great video. The 63 does have a longer wheelbase so is easier to drift, and is heavier. both great cars, ill take 1 of each please!

On the same lines, the CLK black will blow the pants off the M6...

WAY

Tiff and Jason are two very accomplished racing drivers! Google them. I think they both know how to drive road cars very well without needing any practice. I have seen many such comparison and track times comparison. It's clear to me that the M3 is a much faster track car especially a track that requires handling finesse and not just high power. But heck, that would not be a reason for me buying a C63!

ultraseven

a better track car would be the Lotus Exige.

iguess

there is a lot of talk about coupe vs sedan being unfair. i think i've read in another post that they should compare a "c" class coupe to a M3. well whether people like it or not, the C class coupe is the CLK. If they put a CLK63 (not BS) against that M3, would it do better?

STLTH_AMG

They share the same chassis and that’s it, the CLK is NOT a C class coupe! 2 completely different cars. For all it matters, I think the CLK63 would do worse than the C in this test on a track due to the heavier weight. The CLK Black Series is a whole different story but it would only be fair to compare it to the CSL M3.

Carl Lassiter

The Black Series is the superior car to the CSL and likely a future CSL. That is reflected in its much,much higher list price.