MCT (mercedes DSG/DCT) is coming...
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MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: MILFORD,CT
E36M3 race car/Ferrari F355 GTS/1973 Mini 1275GT/Fiat Abarth/ML63/SLK55
MCT (mercedes DSG/DCT) is coming...
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/08/o...3-and-sl65-am/
sl63 makes 538hp from the 6.2l! i expect the MCT tranny will be in the c63 by MY 2010 (mid next yr).
MCT Transmission – The Best of Both Worlds
Providing the direct feedback of a manual transmission with the total convenience of an automatic, the new seven-speed MCT with AMG Speedshift is an all-new design available only in the new SL63 AMG. Featuring seven speeds, four shift modes and a double-clutching function, the MCT transmission offers impressive versatility and even faster shift times.
At the heart of the new AMG Speedshift MCT seven-speed sports transmission is a new start-up clutch, which runs in an oil bath and replaces a conventional torque converter. Thanks to its low rotational mass, the start-up clutch helps the transmission respond instantaneously and dynamically with no slip.
Fitted with four drive modes: "C" (Comfort), "S" (Sport), "S+" (Sport plus) and "M" (Manual), the transmission provides customized shift control for maximum driving pleasure, and does so with no interruption of power. In Comfort mode, smooth shifts coupled with a "soft" accelerator response are set up for silky smooth power transfer. In Sport mode, the engine and transmission interact quicker – upshifts and downshifts take place at higher engine speed. Gearshifts are around 20 percent faster than in Comfort mode. Switching to the Sport Plus mode cuts another 20 percent off shift times, while the sportiest mode, Manual, reduces shifting times by another 10 percent – a total reduction of 50 percent compared with Comfort mode. In Manual mode, the gearshifts take just 100 milliseconds.
Ultra-fast, spontaneous multiple downshifts are another forte of the new MCT sports transmission. For instance, kickdown will shift directly from seventh down to fourth gear or from fifth to second. In the "S" (Sport), "S+" (Sport plus) and "M" (Manual) modes, an automatic double-clutching function is active. Every manual or automatic downshift is accompanied by precisely metered double-clutching – from "S" through "S+" to "M" incrementally. Not only does double-clutching make driving more fun, but virtually load-free downshifting minimizes any jerking, a special benefit when braking into a curve.
sl63 makes 538hp from the 6.2l! i expect the MCT tranny will be in the c63 by MY 2010 (mid next yr).
MCT Transmission – The Best of Both Worlds
Providing the direct feedback of a manual transmission with the total convenience of an automatic, the new seven-speed MCT with AMG Speedshift is an all-new design available only in the new SL63 AMG. Featuring seven speeds, four shift modes and a double-clutching function, the MCT transmission offers impressive versatility and even faster shift times.
At the heart of the new AMG Speedshift MCT seven-speed sports transmission is a new start-up clutch, which runs in an oil bath and replaces a conventional torque converter. Thanks to its low rotational mass, the start-up clutch helps the transmission respond instantaneously and dynamically with no slip.
Fitted with four drive modes: "C" (Comfort), "S" (Sport), "S+" (Sport plus) and "M" (Manual), the transmission provides customized shift control for maximum driving pleasure, and does so with no interruption of power. In Comfort mode, smooth shifts coupled with a "soft" accelerator response are set up for silky smooth power transfer. In Sport mode, the engine and transmission interact quicker – upshifts and downshifts take place at higher engine speed. Gearshifts are around 20 percent faster than in Comfort mode. Switching to the Sport Plus mode cuts another 20 percent off shift times, while the sportiest mode, Manual, reduces shifting times by another 10 percent – a total reduction of 50 percent compared with Comfort mode. In Manual mode, the gearshifts take just 100 milliseconds.
Ultra-fast, spontaneous multiple downshifts are another forte of the new MCT sports transmission. For instance, kickdown will shift directly from seventh down to fourth gear or from fifth to second. In the "S" (Sport), "S+" (Sport plus) and "M" (Manual) modes, an automatic double-clutching function is active. Every manual or automatic downshift is accompanied by precisely metered double-clutching – from "S" through "S+" to "M" incrementally. Not only does double-clutching make driving more fun, but virtually load-free downshifting minimizes any jerking, a special benefit when braking into a curve.
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1996 C36 AMG
Its like benz can do no wrong. they are bending over the rest of automotive world and doing it doggy style haha.
I think it will be a revolutionary transmission that will change the face of MB. NO longer will people be able to say "its an automatic" ... that excuse won't fly on magazine tests & etc... they are a serious contender now.
I think it will be a revolutionary transmission that will change the face of MB. NO longer will people be able to say "its an automatic" ... that excuse won't fly on magazine tests & etc... they are a serious contender now.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,574
Likes: 2
From: Silicon Valley, CA
1999 C280 Previous / 2008 E350
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/08/o...3-and-sl65-am/
sl63 makes 538hp from the 6.2l! i expect the MCT tranny will be in the c63 by MY 2010 (mid next yr).
MCT Transmission – The Best of Both Worlds
Providing the direct feedback of a manual transmission with the total convenience of an automatic, the new seven-speed MCT with AMG Speedshift is an all-new design available only in the new SL63 AMG. Featuring seven speeds, four shift modes and a double-clutching function, the MCT transmission offers impressive versatility and even faster shift times.
At the heart of the new AMG Speedshift MCT seven-speed sports transmission is a new start-up clutch, which runs in an oil bath and replaces a conventional torque converter. Thanks to its low rotational mass, the start-up clutch helps the transmission respond instantaneously and dynamically with no slip.
Fitted with four drive modes: "C" (Comfort), "S" (Sport), "S+" (Sport plus) and "M" (Manual), the transmission provides customized shift control for maximum driving pleasure, and does so with no interruption of power. In Comfort mode, smooth shifts coupled with a "soft" accelerator response are set up for silky smooth power transfer. In Sport mode, the engine and transmission interact quicker – upshifts and downshifts take place at higher engine speed. Gearshifts are around 20 percent faster than in Comfort mode. Switching to the Sport Plus mode cuts another 20 percent off shift times, while the sportiest mode, Manual, reduces shifting times by another 10 percent – a total reduction of 50 percent compared with Comfort mode. In Manual mode, the gearshifts take just 100 milliseconds.
Ultra-fast, spontaneous multiple downshifts are another forte of the new MCT sports transmission. For instance, kickdown will shift directly from seventh down to fourth gear or from fifth to second. In the "S" (Sport), "S+" (Sport plus) and "M" (Manual) modes, an automatic double-clutching function is active. Every manual or automatic downshift is accompanied by precisely metered double-clutching – from "S" through "S+" to "M" incrementally. Not only does double-clutching make driving more fun, but virtually load-free downshifting minimizes any jerking, a special benefit when braking into a curve.
sl63 makes 538hp from the 6.2l! i expect the MCT tranny will be in the c63 by MY 2010 (mid next yr).
MCT Transmission – The Best of Both Worlds
Providing the direct feedback of a manual transmission with the total convenience of an automatic, the new seven-speed MCT with AMG Speedshift is an all-new design available only in the new SL63 AMG. Featuring seven speeds, four shift modes and a double-clutching function, the MCT transmission offers impressive versatility and even faster shift times.
At the heart of the new AMG Speedshift MCT seven-speed sports transmission is a new start-up clutch, which runs in an oil bath and replaces a conventional torque converter. Thanks to its low rotational mass, the start-up clutch helps the transmission respond instantaneously and dynamically with no slip.
Fitted with four drive modes: "C" (Comfort), "S" (Sport), "S+" (Sport plus) and "M" (Manual), the transmission provides customized shift control for maximum driving pleasure, and does so with no interruption of power. In Comfort mode, smooth shifts coupled with a "soft" accelerator response are set up for silky smooth power transfer. In Sport mode, the engine and transmission interact quicker – upshifts and downshifts take place at higher engine speed. Gearshifts are around 20 percent faster than in Comfort mode. Switching to the Sport Plus mode cuts another 20 percent off shift times, while the sportiest mode, Manual, reduces shifting times by another 10 percent – a total reduction of 50 percent compared with Comfort mode. In Manual mode, the gearshifts take just 100 milliseconds.
Ultra-fast, spontaneous multiple downshifts are another forte of the new MCT sports transmission. For instance, kickdown will shift directly from seventh down to fourth gear or from fifth to second. In the "S" (Sport), "S+" (Sport plus) and "M" (Manual) modes, an automatic double-clutching function is active. Every manual or automatic downshift is accompanied by precisely metered double-clutching – from "S" through "S+" to "M" incrementally. Not only does double-clutching make driving more fun, but virtually load-free downshifting minimizes any jerking, a special benefit when braking into a curve.
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Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,067
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From: MILFORD,CT
E36M3 race car/Ferrari F355 GTS/1973 Mini 1275GT/Fiat Abarth/ML63/SLK55
hey guys why would you say this?
i noticed the relative shift time in comparison to dsg and reread the description now i'm not sure it's a twin clutch system. sounds like they did away with the torque convertor but that's it....
yesterday i went to amg's website and took a look at the hp graphs for the s63 and c63............the s63 does make more power than the c63 at lower rpm but the big difference is at 5000+ rpm. the s63 peaks higher where the c63 is flat.
if the full potential of the c63's engine can be liberated and if the mct tranny has a bit closer ratios then the c63 may be turn out to be one very entertaing ride. handling ( lsd, suspension) will be fixed by the aftermarket.
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From: Chicago, IL
2011 E550 4Matic, 2002 M3 Vert
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'08 M5, '10 Land Cruiser
As some have noticed, this is not a DSG or DCT dual-clutch system. It is a single electronic clutch that replaces the tq converter. Good news for keen drivers though seems a rather late arrival to the party. Early examples will likely have bugs.
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Doesn't sound as robust as a torque converter ( from a laymans perspective) but on the otherhand I would imagine the driving experience went up a notch.
I don't really like the new SL looks but with that gearbox, the 6.2L producing 520+ and the uprated suspension etc it sounds like a great to drive across the Europe/USA. Wonder what the journo's will say?
Regards
Andy
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...
According to the Audi website, the S-tronic is reported to shift in 0.2 seconds, which is 200 ms. Maybe there's something I'm not aware of?
The only true DSG (8ms shifts) that I know for sure is in some VWs and the Bugatti Veyron, which is of course made by VW.
The only true DSG (8ms shifts) that I know for sure is in some VWs and the Bugatti Veyron, which is of course made by VW.
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,781
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From: Boston
'05 A4 1.8TQM6
Here's a blurb I found about DSG written when it came out:
Twin-Clutch Gearbox
Twin-clutch gearbox is undoubtedly a revolutionary technology for manual transmission. Its impact to the automotive world is even greater than automated manual gearbox such Ferrari F1 system. Twin-clutch gearbox was first put into production by BorgWarner, which calls it "DualTronic". It was first used in Audi TT 3.2 in the name "DSG" (Direct-Shift Gearbox).
Like automated manual gearbox, BorgWarner’s DualTronic can operate as a semi-automatic, where the driver changes gears via buttons, paddles or conventional shifter. There is no clutch pedal, because the clutch is automatic while the gearshift is implemented by electro-hydraulic actuators. For relax driving, there is also a full automatic mode, where computer determines which gear to be selected.
So, what’s the difference between it and other automated manual gearbox?
Unlike conventional gearboxes, DualTronic uses 2 clutches - one clutch connects to the odd gears (1st, 3rd and 5th) while another clutch connects to even gears (2nd, 4th and 6th). This enable it to shift far smoother and faster than conventional gearbox.
Why? let us see how a conventional gearbox work first: when a driver wants to change from one gear to another, he presses down the clutch pedal, thus the engine is disconnected from the gearbox. During this period, no power is transmitted to the gearbox, thus the driver can shift gears. When it is done, he engage the clutch again, then power is again transmitted to the gearbox. As you can see, the power delivery change from ON to OFF to ON during gearshift. How smooth the change depends on how skillful the driver cooperate the clutch and throttle. Automated gearbox like Ferrari F1 is similar. The only difference is that the clutch and gearshift are operated by computer via hydraulic actuators. The ON-OFF-ON power delivery still exist. In contrast, an automatic transmission with torque converter does not has this problem.
Twin-clutch gearbox can overcome the ON-OFF-ON problem too, thanks to the twin-clutch design which enable it to "pre-select" the next gear. Take this example: assuming the car is accelerating at 2nd. The clutch controlling the even gears is now engaged while another clutch is disengaged. From the data taken at throttle position and rev counter, the computer knows that the driver will select 3rd soon, thus it will connect the 3rd gear. Because at this moment the clutch for odd gears is disengaged, the pre-selection of 3rd will not affect the 2nd gear currently running. When the driver touches the gear-shift paddle, computer signals the even-gear clutch to disengage and simultaneously the odd-gear clutch to engage. In this way, gear is changed from 2nd to 3rd instantaneously, without any OFF period, without any delay - the only delay is caused by the smooth disengagement and engagement of the two clutches. Therefore power delivery is smooth and uninterrupted.
Pre-selection of gears quicken the shift a lot. Upshift takes just 8ms, 10 times quicker than BMW SMG II which is the fastest automated manual gearbox currently available. Downshift is less impressive, because the gearbox need to wait for the throttle blip to match gearbox speed with engine speed. Change down a gear therefore takes 600ms. Changing down a few gears could be more complicated. The most complicated is from 6th to 2nd (both are controlled by the same clutch while the distance between the two gears is the longest). It needs to change to 5th (controlled by another clutch) temporarily before 2nd is selected. This takes 900ms.
To package 2 clutches in limited space, BorgWarner decided to use multi-plate clutches which are far smaller in diameter than conventional clutches. Multi-plate clutches also allow finer control of engagement speed versus smoothness. Depending on driving style, computer can easily change the gearshift speed / smoothness setting.
Advantage: Gearshift ultra-smooth, pretty fast.
Disadvantage: More complex construction, can it handle a lot of torque?
Who use it ? Audi TT 3.2
Twin-clutch gearbox is undoubtedly a revolutionary technology for manual transmission. Its impact to the automotive world is even greater than automated manual gearbox such Ferrari F1 system. Twin-clutch gearbox was first put into production by BorgWarner, which calls it "DualTronic". It was first used in Audi TT 3.2 in the name "DSG" (Direct-Shift Gearbox).
Like automated manual gearbox, BorgWarner’s DualTronic can operate as a semi-automatic, where the driver changes gears via buttons, paddles or conventional shifter. There is no clutch pedal, because the clutch is automatic while the gearshift is implemented by electro-hydraulic actuators. For relax driving, there is also a full automatic mode, where computer determines which gear to be selected.
So, what’s the difference between it and other automated manual gearbox?
Unlike conventional gearboxes, DualTronic uses 2 clutches - one clutch connects to the odd gears (1st, 3rd and 5th) while another clutch connects to even gears (2nd, 4th and 6th). This enable it to shift far smoother and faster than conventional gearbox.
Why? let us see how a conventional gearbox work first: when a driver wants to change from one gear to another, he presses down the clutch pedal, thus the engine is disconnected from the gearbox. During this period, no power is transmitted to the gearbox, thus the driver can shift gears. When it is done, he engage the clutch again, then power is again transmitted to the gearbox. As you can see, the power delivery change from ON to OFF to ON during gearshift. How smooth the change depends on how skillful the driver cooperate the clutch and throttle. Automated gearbox like Ferrari F1 is similar. The only difference is that the clutch and gearshift are operated by computer via hydraulic actuators. The ON-OFF-ON power delivery still exist. In contrast, an automatic transmission with torque converter does not has this problem.
Twin-clutch gearbox can overcome the ON-OFF-ON problem too, thanks to the twin-clutch design which enable it to "pre-select" the next gear. Take this example: assuming the car is accelerating at 2nd. The clutch controlling the even gears is now engaged while another clutch is disengaged. From the data taken at throttle position and rev counter, the computer knows that the driver will select 3rd soon, thus it will connect the 3rd gear. Because at this moment the clutch for odd gears is disengaged, the pre-selection of 3rd will not affect the 2nd gear currently running. When the driver touches the gear-shift paddle, computer signals the even-gear clutch to disengage and simultaneously the odd-gear clutch to engage. In this way, gear is changed from 2nd to 3rd instantaneously, without any OFF period, without any delay - the only delay is caused by the smooth disengagement and engagement of the two clutches. Therefore power delivery is smooth and uninterrupted.
Pre-selection of gears quicken the shift a lot. Upshift takes just 8ms, 10 times quicker than BMW SMG II which is the fastest automated manual gearbox currently available. Downshift is less impressive, because the gearbox need to wait for the throttle blip to match gearbox speed with engine speed. Change down a gear therefore takes 600ms. Changing down a few gears could be more complicated. The most complicated is from 6th to 2nd (both are controlled by the same clutch while the distance between the two gears is the longest). It needs to change to 5th (controlled by another clutch) temporarily before 2nd is selected. This takes 900ms.
To package 2 clutches in limited space, BorgWarner decided to use multi-plate clutches which are far smaller in diameter than conventional clutches. Multi-plate clutches also allow finer control of engagement speed versus smoothness. Depending on driving style, computer can easily change the gearshift speed / smoothness setting.
Advantage: Gearshift ultra-smooth, pretty fast.
Disadvantage: More complex construction, can it handle a lot of torque?
Who use it ? Audi TT 3.2
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Posts: 4,057
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From: NJ
2009 SL63 AMG
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....&page_number=2
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Posts: 4,781
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From: Boston
'05 A4 1.8TQM6
My friend, 8MS shift is a bit ridiculous. The Ferrari FXX, whose gearbox is far quicker than any of the above, initially shifted at 150MS which was then reduced to 80MS. 0.08 of seconds to shift...cmon bro.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....&page_number=2
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....&page_number=2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-Shift_Gearbox
http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...ear_manual.htm (Scroll to twin-clutch gearbox)
http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/v...ion-dsg-sales/
Just a few places you can read about it. Tons more out there.
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,057
Likes: 341
From: NJ
2009 SL63 AMG
I'm just reiterating multiple sources I've read from. No need to believe me, just google the specs of the DSG gearbox. The DSG gearbox is quicker than BMW's SMG and Ferrari's gearbox.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-Shift_Gearbox
http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...ear_manual.htm (Scroll to twin-clutch gearbox)
http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/v...ion-dsg-sales/
Just a few places you can read about it. Tons more out there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-Shift_Gearbox
http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...ear_manual.htm (Scroll to twin-clutch gearbox)
http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/v...ion-dsg-sales/
Just a few places you can read about it. Tons more out there.
Something to point out though, while the link states upshifts take 8MS, downshifts require 600MS. Still, having driven a GTI with DSG...I was hooked. These transmissions are truly something else.
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,781
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From: Boston
'05 A4 1.8TQM6
I've driven the A3 with the DSG gearbox...definitely a wonderful invention as far as a non-stick shift gearbox goes
I hear the GTI is more fun than the A3 too with the DSG, need to try one of those sometime.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,057
Likes: 341
From: NJ
2009 SL63 AMG
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,781
Likes: 3
From: Boston
'05 A4 1.8TQM6
I was impressed with the GTI. Lucked out having a major gearhead as a sales rep who tossed me the keys to a demo and went out for a solid test drive. Really got a chance to push the car hard. I would definitely recommend checking one out...I was surprised how well it handled.
