sflgator

Gotta love "tuner wars."

How about Mike from MBH motorsports actually answering the 'tough questions' while Brad, Josh, and Dad's allow him to promote his new product for the C63 AMG?

Competition is good for the consumer, and there's probably enough market share for all of those who want to participate. But, geez guys, let the sponsor promote, market, and actually sell his product without all the hostility (which is apparent that it goes back well beyond the present).

I do believe Mike should honestly answer everyone's questions (regardless of who asks), because many people have learned to be skeptical when it comes to the introduction of new tuning mods (on any car; not just on the C63 AMG). However, at the same time, the other guys (whether currently "connected" or once "connected" in the past to other tuning companies) should allow him to answer these questions without harassment. Then, after Mike begins selling his DPs, then there should be more comparison tests and more independent dynos.

Just my $0.02.

hotml350

Instead of posting ten times complaing, why not simply answer the questions people are asking, one by one.

If there is a question you don't know the answer to, just say that.

Unless you can give informed reply, people will start to assume you are just buying parts from a shop that is making them for you.

MHP don't make their own headers or software, they just pay people to make them and then brand them as MHP.

Can you ask the fabricator the list of questions, and then post the answers, one by one.

Congratulations on what looks to be a good product

brad @ evosport

Mike,

I am in this thread for TWO reasons:

1. You invited me via PM on Friday.

2. You took more than one pot-shot at a friend of mine, someone I respect and did it with half-truths and assumption. I responded to clarify.

I have also not said anything about your product other than congrats. So for you to be so aggressive against me sends a pretty clear message!

thanks
Brad

hoolamonster

@Daddy's boy errr dads c63... NO way you put down 417rwt (w/CA91) on a dyno dynamics when you put down 428rwt (w/100 oct) on Dyno Jet Dads c63 - who's your daddy now?

You three dudes...

Ooops look what I found...



Its time for you to say "sorry MBH great product I cant wait to seem some independent test, good luck with sales" and then delete your ****** post from his thread!

Dads C63

Hoolamonster,
THANK YOU THANK YOU!! You just proved my point without me bringing it up. Same mods with another brand of L/T headers that produced FAR more HP and Torque. Read the red print, car put out 471rwhp and 428rwtq in 91 degree heat. Whats your point?

C63 Guy

Uhm, wake up and RTFT. Dad's car is in Florida. My car is in CA, hence running on CA91. The 417rwtq was MY dyno number.

So, I'd say that I'M your daddy now. And it's time for bed, sweetie.

avengerboater

LOL. Owned.

Oh, btw...That was in 91 degrees heat and high humidity...even though it was running 100 octane gas.

hoolamonster

lol you're right i was confused sorry for the confusion, there's a lot to read in this thread!

jturkel

seriously. great post.

i just want to say to you, that i find it odd that you ran to post in this thread out of nowhere. that is STRANGE. but IIRC, evosport runs mbworld and whats posted here...so i guess i figured that one out for myself......

also, Brad, per this post:

Brad......you should know that post violates Mbworld's TOU.

per this link: https://mbworld.org/forums/faq.php?f...q_new_faq_item

under the Forums Acceptable Use Policy, "You agree, through your use of the Discussion Forums, that the posting of private communications (including, but not limited to e-mail, private messages, letters, faxes) without the consent of all parties to said communication is strictly prohibited.".......

i know mike did not give you permission to post that. looks really good to see a "premier sponsor" violating the TOU. definitely not setting a good example.

lol. for the record, Hooley's transmission also had a cooked transmission. so "cooked" in fact, he had it rebuilt since "cooked" was such an understatement to describe it.

eh....careful. in case you havent read the other subforums on mbworld, the C63 section is known throughout all of mbworld as the laughing stock of the entire forum....dont believe me? look for a thread in the off-topic section devoted to the C63 thread (sorry C63 owners).

on the contrary, the most tech-savvy/knowledgeable section on this website is the W211 AMG section.....it isnt even close, and that is where Hooley does most of his posting other than the C32/55 section.


thanks for the clarification. i suppose Hooley feels a bit uncomfortable informing other sponsors and those who are still friendly/close with them (such as yourself) of the intricacies of his products.....releasing certain information pertaining to his products may compromise its uniqueness and ability to outperform headers from rival companies/sponsors.

now i'm not saying this should pertain to the tune/A/F question... dynocomp/renntech does the tuning and they take tons of time ensuring that everything is EXACTLY where it needs to be. how do i know? besides having my car tuned there and watching too many cars there on the dyno getting tuned to count. and where did he post the 11 or 12 figure you claimed? i can't find it anywhere in this thread. i could only find that he said "its fine" (or something like that).......regardless, i think that the tune A/F question is certainly a legitimate question, but i think some of the others questions that were asked, and the method/tone with which they were asked, seem a bit odd.

with regards to those other questions:
and your response to your 4th question:

1) dynocomp's readout for the dyno only displays two things at a time, and he happened to select hp and tq since those are obviously the numbers that people are interested in initially when looking a product for performance gains. he would need to go back to dynocomp, get the file, change the display, and print out another. but chill out.....this came out last week.

...for for an exhaust/header guy, i'm surprised at the silliness of some of your questions...you should know these things....

2) why? double-walled tig welding? really? um....flange has two walls....weld both walls.....stronger

3) single flange? single flange is beneficial because it creates more rigidity and seals more evenly. it's science.

4) regarding 321.....321 is LESS prone to cracking than 304. in fact, i would LOVE you have a picture of a 321ss flange cracked. i just want to actually see it, because i have NEVER heard of it. 321 was originally engineered for temp cycles from hot to cold regularly, ie excess of 800*C. 304 is prone to cracking due to the lack of carbon and other alloying elements which stabilize the material (titanium) state when hot. it also cracks mainly due to vibration (ie fatigue cracking) mixed along with the thermal stresses of repetitive heat & cool cycles too. this is why 304 is not used in airplanes and why they use 321......sure, 321 is quite expensive,compared to 304 and the 'lack' of availability of tube & pipe bends deems it prohibitive, hence the reason most/all aftermarket stuff is 304: cheap and easy to obtain. but....somehow, even though MBH headers are made with this more expensive and durable material, they are cheaper than the other headers on the market.....can you explain THAT one?

MBH motorsports

his point is YOU HAVE DYNO JET NUMBERS! back when that was your mod setup try and but down those numbers on a Dyno-Dynamics.

rory breaker

MBH -

Dude, the competition is grilling you to see if you can back up the claims you are making in this thread. You have 2 options:

1) freak out and try to evoke some kind of internet ten commandments to show these guys are breaking the e-constitution (which you're doing)

or

2) address their questions head on, make this thread about YOU and not THEM, and win the fight the clean way

There is still time to pursue the right path, and this will say a lot about you to your customers and associates - what's it gonna be?

jturkel

ok......how dumb are people in this forum? this is absurd

the dyno Hoolamonster posted shows the C63 with MHP longtube headers, tune, filters, air box, and 100 octane.....dynoing 471whp and 423.32wtq on a DYNOJET.

the C63 dyno that Hooley posted with just MBH headers and Renntech tune (stock filters, stock air box, and 91 octane gas) put down 458whp and 402wtq....on a DYNO DYNAMICS.

must i really bring up the DynoJet vs DynoDynamics argument? i mean how much do you guys really not know?

the MBH C63 puts down 13 less whp and 20 less wtq WITHOUT the airbox and filters, WITHOUT the 100 octane, and WITHOUT the DynoJet.......is this april fools? or some kind of joke?. this is like amateur hour, guys. my g-d.

C63 Guy

Stronger? Maybe, but only if you're sloppy with your fit up. There's no way a header in an N/A street car would need both flanges welded up. It's overkill.

Actually by separating the flanges each tube only has to carry it's own load and seeing as how you know so much about heat cycles and expansion, I'd think you'd get that the different runner lengths would cause different amounts of expansion and end up putting MORE stress on a single flange and causing MORE distortion. That's science.

Fair enough (and quite well stated), but I said relative to 308 or 316, which are both significant improvements over 304, and yet much more cost effective in this app. Also, he posted that it's only used in the flanges, not the tubes, which are still 304.

Regarding the 11 or 12 AFR:

So there's that... And it's well after "tomorrow". Just saying.

alqamzi

It doesn't matter what your dyno number is its fake setting.What matters is reality-actual DRAGTIMES...

jturkel

ok thanks....i honestly didnt see that...nor do i know the A/F.....Hooley can easily get a graph of the A/F when has a chance from DynoComp. They are stored on file and he just needs to change the visual read outs, as i previously said.

and for all those others who want to see all these independent dynos, 1/4 mile/drag strip results, etc....

this thread is on its 5th day. headers were just finished. shipping isn't even until 2/22. it seems like you c63 owners are unrealistic, you want the product tested on 10 different cars on 10 different dynos and 10 different tracks all across the world. Then I imagine you want it standardized somehow based on altitude and barometric pressures then averaged. oh, and octane ratings across the US must also be factored in. let me run to a statistician and get back to you guys in 2 years.

MBH motorsports

Than overkill it is. I aways want to go the extra mile for my products. If welding both sides of the flange is Overkill. than so be it.

Dads C63

So you really want to compare a dyno done in 50 degree weather with 40% humidity vs in Florida with 91 degree heat and 75% humidity? We both know the air boxes do absolutely nothing on the dyno so thats a mute point. You can't be serious and you'll probaby reply that the dyno compensates for that. Thats true to a point but the car puts out far more power in the colder weather. I've been on numerous dyno's and they all give me the same numbers. Go get some real track results and come back.
The only reason I ran 100 Octane is because of the heat and because of the tune. I had not received the new tune yet.

I'm done until the track results come around.

jturkel

The distortion you mention is minimal at best. Are you going to tell me that some of the highest quality headers produced, such as those made by AmericanRacing, KooKs, Stainless Works, etc, are all producing their headers incorrectly? They all use a single flange for their headers, and produce for those top of line sports cars.

c32AMG-DTM

jturkel - you're probably the best source, since you were there (and have a lot of experience on and around DC's dyno). Is their DD run in "shootout mode" for grabbing these numbers to show performance comparisons?

DJ > DD is not an absolute; as I understand it, DD results are a lot easier to "fiddle" with - one of the frequently-cited DD dyno shops in CA that many of the w211 guys use allegedly has a +11% correction factor pre-programmed in, in an attempt to give "DJ-like" results. I'm not saying DC does the same, but it's my understanding that "shootout mode" locks out those other parameters and doesn't let the operator juice the numbers; I may be mistaken, however.

Anyway, as many have stated in this thread - dyno results are good for delta, but track results will tell the tale; look forward to seeing the track results from an MBH-headered C63 - either this one, or someone else, I'm sure there'll be some results eventually.

C63 Guy

Fair enough.

No, I didn't say incorrect, just not as "ideal". A single flange is easier for fitup and quicker production but if you're going the extra mile, why not separate the flanges? If welding both sides of the flange is a tiny bit better, and so is separate flanges then why not do both?

Josh

jturkel

50 degrees here? haha...no. you have been terribly misinformed. in October, our highs range up to the 100s and lows down to the through the 50s...here is a link to the Oct temps in 2008

http://www.wunderground.com/history/...lyHistory.html

here, i'll make it easy.

avg high in Oct '08: 91
overall avg temp: 78

if i had the exact date and time of the dyno, i could give you the exact temps too....and oddly enough, the coldest temp recorded in Oct 2008 was 50 degrees.....the coldest temps recorded come just before sunrise, say, sometime between 5 and 6:30 here, depending on time of year.....dyno was not done at the time. i can guarantee you that haha.

and if you really want to get all specific about conditions....don't get me started with altitudes.....the highest altitude in florida is 345 ft above sea level. the altitude in scottsdale where the dyno is, is above 1250. that is a 905 ft difference.....and that is between where WE are and the highest point in Florida which I believe the dyno is at.

jturkel

its fine if you feel this way but so far this is all your opinion. if you want you can take a sawzall and separate the flange for your ideal set up.

jturkel

DynoComp does not juice the numbers. they are regularly lower than every dyno in arizona....and everyone out here knows that. in fact, after you dyno, Rich will take out a calculator and give you the exact calculation from his dyno to other dynos from conversion factors he has calculated from taking cars of different make/model/transmission/etc from his dyno to the other ones.

yes the delta is what is important, as is the track. it is NOT my C63....nor my headers. I was told that the individual who owns the car isnt exactly a drag racing type. not into the track scene. just loud and looking good on the street with money to burn. MBH and/or DynoComp would need to get the owner's permission to take that car to the track to get the times. i'm not going to speak to how feasible it is, since i don't know. i would imagine the owner may allow for it, but what do i know? lol

only problem with the track......if people are comparing one dyno to another, and now, some are going to throw out conditions, like temps and humidity.....arizona has the worst track conditions. the best DA i have EVER seen in arizona was 1700. and it was 50 out (freezing). our average DA is towards 3000 (and in Tucson, where I used to do some racing, it was regularly above 5000 and 6000 DA)). then there are fuel questions (arizona is notorious for having 91 octane that is actually rated independently at around 87-88 octane)....and then tire/drive setups.

Regardless, hopefully MBH/DynoComp will have the opportunity to take the car to the track. i can say it is definitely faster than mine (not obviously saying much, haha...i only dyno 360whp and 380wtq on that dynamics).

rory breaker

No one is asking for any of that. All people are asking for is the answers to the questions posed, which are ALL fair. Instead of bickering about PM's and talking about sponsor drama and forum BS, why aren't we just talking about the products?

The main source of my interest is to find out what makes a $3k set of headers so expensive when I have seen top-notch TIG-welded 304SS headers on other applications that deliver 10-20% improvement over stock headers for much much much less, even under $1k, that never ever crack and fit perfect. Having all these manufacturers in one thread may educate this community better on why parts for these cars in particular, when Im sure no breakthroughs in physics are being accomplished here, are so darned expensive. Sure one could sit back and say R&D, materials, craftsmanship, blah blah blah...but lets be real. You've got a dyno at your disposal, good to go. Smooth = flow. Nice welds = no cracking. High quality merge collector = more power. Materials that can tolerate high temp changes = no cracking. We can go on and on...there are sh*tty headers, and there are great ones...not much in between. They are either made right or made wrong for a given application.

I know this takes time, and I feel once these homemade tuners figure their header out, make a dyno sheet, its like they hit the lottery and charge $3k-$5k just because they can. Same with the tunes. $1k+ for a std ECU flash is a joke for anyone who knows whats going on but thats another story.

jturkel

pricing on aftermarket parts for cars such as MB is an old story.....not as big of a demand as mods for American cars....

american car mods = greater demand = greater supply = mass produced = cheaper prices. oh and less risk.

MB = less demand = less supply; more risk = higher prices to meet company's bottom line.

and for tunes....yah, thats another story....i dont want to get into that one. that one pisses me off. lol. save that one for another day.

i do know that the MBH headers are less expensive than other headers made for the C63 (look, i don't mention names/companies, guys, thats how it is done).....but that is for a reason you can ask Hooley/MBH Motorsports about. PM and ask him. sure they are expensive....but...relative to other MB headers? no. relative to american/japanese products? yes. but again, thats the whole brief supply/demand thing.

and i know where you are coming from. the Eurocharged shorties I have i think are lik 900 new.....my ex-roommates LS1 longtubes and y-pipe, which were perfect quality (it was sickening how perfect) were 650...shipped...new

i do understand why everyone wants the nubmers from the track or from the dyno....but these are barely 5 days old. everyone calm down. i'm sure he'll get to them as soon as he can.