As I've stated elsewhere, I look forward to seeing MBH's results, and think competition only benefits the consumer (i.e. C63 owners). That said, I think I can help with the "oddity" you mention. All of the "drama" in these threads (plural) started over in the first MBH C63 header thread:

https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...ming-soon.html

When MBH/hooleyboy posted:

The MBH C63 headers are the only ones designed using 2" primaries - so the above post was read by many as a 'shot-across-the-bow' by MBH to every other tuner, calling their headers "inadequate." Maybe it wasn't intended as such, but it sure reads that way. Other aspects of MBH's post caused others to question hooleyboy's intimate knowledge of the M156 (and engine specs/operation in general), which added to the subsequent peppering of technical questions from many amongst the forum's membership. I'm not claiming if that's right or wrong to ask, but that (as best I can tell) is what triggered most if not all of it.

This part of you post is confusing to me - MBH's headers don't use 321 for tube and pipe bends... all of the tubing and bends (according to MBH) are 304, which you seem to be knocking as "cheap" Am I misunderstanding? Pricing and availability for 321 tubing and elbows seems irrelevant for all C63 headers, including MBH's.

Anyway, I think we can all agree that we're all enthusiasts here, and want the best aftermarket options to succeed, to the benefit of AMGs everywhere. Time will tell on these headers, as well as all others currently available and yet-to-be released offerings from whomever else. As you correctly point out, it's way too early on these ones to make any definitive judgements - there's only been one set made so far, for Pete's sake.

 

Well said with a level head, thanks for the response. And I get what you're saying, but to play devils advocate, again, I dont think there is a physical breakthrough here. I understand demand is less but the same process that Ls1 company is using to make those pipes is being used here...the wheel is not being reinvented. Maybe being rounded out a bit on a higher tech machine, but not reinvented. I dont think that justifies the cost. Something can be said about supply/demand, but something else can also be said about someone just making other peoples ideas fit in this engine bay.

I see a gaping hole here for someone with a superior product to introduce headers where they are still making PLENTY of profit, and absolutely blow the other guys out of the water on price, and bring this niche group back down to reality.

Its literally insulting to me to be charged x amount just because I "can" pay for it, and I feel all tuners in this genre are doing it. Someone should break the mold.

 

So if what you're saying is true, the C63's stock baseline (from Oct '08) with 100 miles on the vehicle was on a 90-100 degree day, when it posted a relatively pedestrian 330 whp:

https://mbworld.org/forums/c32-amg-c...55-vs-c63.html

And it's post-header DD runs (2/11/10 I think?) were weather conditions of a high of 64, and a low of 44 in Scottsdale, AZ according to weather.com

That at least answers one question that was posed, I think.

 

I was refering to the day they tested these new headers. According to Weather Underground history it was in the low 50's and the humidity was 40% on 2/10/2010 in Scottsdale, Arizona. I didn't think that could be misunderstood.

 

So far 90% of everything posted in this thread is just someone's opinion.

 

ah. well i thought you were asking about october. clearly, others were and am glad i addressed that date.

per the Feb 10 date:

http://www.wunderground.com/history/...tename=Arizona

from hours of operation, scottsdale temperatures ranged from a low of 54 to a high of 59....so still not quite 50 degrees, nor low 50s.

and regarding humidity, during the hours of operation, humidity ranged from a low of 47% to a high of 62%. it was never at 40%.

and what about the altitude difference i mentioned? hmm? what is your altitude on your dyno? surely below 345 ft and not above 1250 like ours......

this is a stupid argument. seriously. ......

....what kind of rims/tires were they running? what were the IATs at the time of the pull? how many fans? where were they placed? how heavy was the person dynoing your car? what did he have for breakfast? was it a breakfast burrito? with or without potatoes? hot sauce too?

i'm literally LOL....right now.

 

i gave you straight facts about 321. there is no arguing with facts.
i gave you facts about a single flange. maybe you should contact a real/serious company like american racing and ask them why thats what they make for Z06s and Vipers. they make more headers in a year than any of these companies have ever made. period.
in your opinion it is overkill to double-wall weld....then so be it. my opinion (and evidently MBH's) takes into consideration extra safety precaution. better err on the side of overkill.

the only opinions in this thread are those that you are saying....saying so and so is better than so and so.....but you never back it up. i still havent seen a picture of a cracked 321 flange....please post a picture of one when you find one. i'm curious.

till then, i'm done with this thread. bottom line is that the MBH headers are less expensive and put down more power. the dyno is there. the price is there. if you are interested in the headers, then awesome. if not, then awesome. keep the extra partisan/biased crap/opinions out of here and stick to the facts. thanks

 

BTW.......why no comment from Brad@Evosport regarding your violation of the TOU? you've been viewing this thread all day and nothing. hmm? Spoke with Hooley and he did not condone posting of that private message.

 

Guys why does it have to be a fight over everything?Why can't we just learn from each other,and be civil

 

John,

I did not post a PM, I posted one line out of a lengthy PM after Mike replied that he had no idea what I was talking about. Certainly you are missing the context (I think by choice) and it is nothing that is out of line with what anyone else could/does do on this site.

Again, the attempts to deflect rather than answer the questions posted is unreal. It is also unreal how aggressive that Mike and his buddies (ie: YOU, who I am sure was called by Mike and asked to help him out) are against anyone that asks honest questions.

FACT: Mike invited me to post in his threads
FACT: Once I did, he exploded (and I did not post anything even about his product) stating that it was a "sham" and "BS"
FACT: That is hypocritical

FACT: Josh and Keith (DadsC63) asked legit questions
FACT: Mike refuses to answer them, and instead deflects and plays the "shell game" which is a tactic that has never worked on the web!

If Mike would simply answer questions rather then call for his web-warriors to back him up, and if he would take his own advice (ie: "to be professional") then he would be getting more respect.

There is a reason that tuners last 5, 10, 15 years - and it is not with "smoke and mirrors" and "deflection" - it is with honest talk and good product. Does Mike have these? We don't know and that is what people are trying to figure out.

I have a lot of my own "opinion" and "fact" about his headers, the design and the build quality - some good, some bad. However, I have not stated one publicly or privately, nor will I do so. That is not my place.

However, when Mike and his buddies start attacking my customers and other C63 enthusiasts with untruths and low-blows, it makes me take interest!

Thanks
Brad

 

Brad,

Not sure if you noticed, but I actually answered some of those questions asked. Take a look at my posts directed at C63Guy (Josh).

with regards to "I did not post a PM, I posted one line out of a lengthy PM after Mike replied that he had no idea what I was talking about. Certainly you are missing the context (I think by choice) and it is nothing that is out of line with what anyone else could/does do on this site."

context has nothing to do with it. he may or may not have invited you to post in the thread. that i do not know nor will know. furthermore, inviting you to post in a thread does not grand you the right to post information from a PM, email, etc.....without expressed/explicit consent......i DO know you posted part of a PM....and whether you posted one line of a PM or an entire PM, you are still violating the TOU.

and i thank you for not stating your opinions publicly or privately. not that i think that is what upset MBH, but rather that the questions did not seem genuine and more in the form of an attack against his product.

...and its Josh, not john. (did i post somewhere my name was john? lol. lots of J's)

 

Josh (Sorry about that),

When someone tells me one thing privately then attempts to state the opposite publicly in an effort to tarnish my reputation, you can bet that I will reply - PERIOD. This site has always allowed that and will always allow that from my understanding.

Further, as to the questions asked, regardless if he "felt" they were genuine, there are 100's if not 1000's of users here that would surely want to know the same info. So rather then answer and inform everyone, he elected to take "pot-shots" at fine quality people.

Mike opened the can of worms, he will have to deal with the consequences!

Thanks
Brad

 

This is so childish, I love it! What was this thread about again...?

 

Brad you are making an assumption that is completely false. In fact its unfounded. You can assume that I'm calling folks on the phone or rallying the troops per-say. In fact Its my phone thats blowing up not me blowing up other peoples phone.

The questions asked are by people with no intent to use an MHB/DC product. In fact the people asking both have competitors header components on their cars.These questions are not genuine, They are not from a person who truly wants to know.

All question sent to me via PM have been replied to the best of my ability. Those are from genuine folks. These are the people that dont ask condescending, probing, or messages with ill intent. I am more than willing to answer any and all questions, Thats If I feel they are coming from a good place... From an honest person, with honest intent.

By no means will I field a question from someone who 's only intent is to rebut my answer. Or by a person who bashes me at the beginning of the post they praises me at the end. I know what thats about. I know what trying to save face is too. No one wants to look like the "bad guy" So they end there post with.. "Great work" or "good job" only after they try to rebut my statements.


It is disheartening when I'm afraid to say "Mine are the best" or "I only use the best" in my thread. When I put my many of late nights, my money, and a tireless effort into build a product not only I can be proud of, But others too. All this in fear that a Moderator/Admin/sponsor will come down with the wrath of god if I make a claim that my product is a "grade A" piece of work and craftmanship.

I am very proud of the end result... It bring me great pride and satisfaction to offer a world class product at a reasonable price. To me its more than selling something. Its about bringing a smile to someones face that shares the same passion about their car that I do.

In the end this is just one more product available for the C63. Its an honor to be considered by a potential buyer when they are looking for a part that meets their needs and wants. Now if I can save them a buck or two in the process... It makes me feel great.. Knowing the money they save could go to something else.

I consider it an honor to be shopped around with the likes of EVOsport. That is something I hold in high regard.

Its a cool feeling knowing when someone steps on the gas with a car equipped with MBH headers and it brings a smile to their face. This is not about money for me at all. This is about a passion.

As for those questions I will answer them tonight.

 

What an absolutely ridiculous thread. Seems like a lot of people don't have much to do.

 

Hooley I think there are many people that knew his exact intent with the questions and that came very apparent when he told you he had an issue of what you were saying at the track. It doesn't matter if he is affiliated with evo at all. He is friends and that is reason enough to have started this. Also we know you are not an engineer or programmer to have these answers off the top of your head. I have a lot of opinions on all of this, but I don't care to get involved. Just tell your bro not to make statements for you as well as he is making you look bad (sorry don't mean to sound like a jerk) I am sure others see things the same way as I do so don't get too upset. We know what you are here for and what you are trying to do for everyone. You and EVO sport should just take it to PM delete this thread and start over! This thread has no winners and is bringing everyone down. Good luck to both of the parties involved.

 

I will have more pics very soon with up close macro pics.

 

 

Just some constructive criticism from a person with enough experience in the "competitive" performance market to see the flaws of marketing in this post.

Mike your passion for what you do may not make you the best spokesman for your company. I myself love to engineer but am not a people person and from what I have read you need a lot more work on your people skills. Don't expect to have no criticism and skeptics from experienced racers and laborers in the business when you put yourself on top of such a high podium when saying things like "the best headers made".

You showing picture after picture does nothing to impress the knowledgeable either. Nice welds and high grade material do very little for the main outcome which is to make power. Again from experience overkill may sound good but the main goal of making power and being reliable enough is what matters in the end. Don't expect to win a guy over like Josh with mentioning double welds when his 17 years of experience may say "what's the point. Personally you may be adding more cost in labor which raises your total cost and in any business cost is everything to be successful.

I have no affiliation with anybody and have never met anybody on this forum but again I can read who knows what and MBH seems a little green in the experience and knowledge department to making bold claims and their only defense is the out of control anger. I would do less talking on forums and get some more behind the scenes real world testing done first so you know exactly how to answer legitimate questions instead of having so many theories and angry outbursts.

I would take note of how Brad from Evosport conducts himself as it's a lot more professional. MBH has a hatred for MHP but your internet approach is the same. Too funny really.

 

And while you're at it look up the difference between mute and moot.

 

Seriously, as a potential customer, all I wanted were some facts.

 

well written.

 

I have no hatred at all. I take exception to people who have ill intent. Its wrong. This thread was about a cool product. Then was ruined buy someone trying to one up me every step of the way.

 

Mike,

Thanks for your reply. I feel like tones of both of our posts have gotten a little out of hand and I appreciate your response a few posts above. I based my opinion on your use of 321 as a cost/performance benefit thing and that's 100% your choice, not mine. In the end, it IS a better overall material, and it wasn't my initial intention to vilify you for using it, but like I said we get carried away. As was my assessment of the double side welding thing. I saw it as overkill, and you see it as safety factor. Again, it doesn't make the product worse, it just messes with my idealized production flow: Why do something that provides little, if any, benefit and and requires much additional labor? But I can see how the extra safety factor makes for warm and fuzzies. Fair enough. My information about the trans opening up comes from a MB trans specialist, so he could be wrong or embellishing. I don't know. But it seems pretty reasonable to me coming from someone who deals with only that every day.

I think it boils down to this: You talk a lot of ****. We all do. But when you defame something I'm proud to have been part of the creation of to promote your own product and state certain opinions as absolutes, that gets to me as a person and as a fabricator, and I retaliated by poking holes in your sales pitch.

I've said from the beginning that I think they're super cool looking, unique, and sellable for both those reasons alone, and I still feel that way. But it's clear to me that you also made decisions to differentiate yourself from the other products on the market based on the fact that they're simply different from the other products on the market. There's nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all. Lots of products are designed and sold that way. But to make the leap to them being better because of that is not reasonable to me. And, right or wrong, I judged your for that.

As far as this JTurkel guy's posts...

First off, please elaborate on the first part about my posts only being opinions. That interests me. Especially that bit about me being the ONLY person posting opinions. That's just lame and you know it.

Secondly, I didn't say they cracked I said it had a lower MOE and was more likely to crack in a rigid structure such as a single piece flange. It's actually pretty common on pressure vessels in the steam and oil industries for the 321 flanges to crack over time and that's what interested me when I saw that MBH's headers had flanges made from that material. What I find funny is that you dis 304 so hard when it's probably 95% of the material content of these headers.

But to get back to Mike, I do wish you the best of luck with these and I'm sorry if my posts have gotten off track and gone the other direction. My initial questions were looking for holes in your logic and design, and I now feel that they might have been out of line.

Josh

 

You first contacted me. I did say I like having other vendors post. That was intended to vendors that like and endorse other products. Comradery amongst vendors who try and put their beast foot forward to bring cool new things to the market. Vendors all know what kind of work goes into these projects. Its really great to hear from someone who know what it takes to make a project happen. By no mean is that an open invite to bring in the negativity.

You can post my PM's.. not once did I try to tarnish your rep. for you to say that is false. I was very respectful about your exception to my "research" claim. In fact I was sensitive to all your gripes.


Brad post the PM showing what you said! You completely contradict this statement!