Drove new PPP and my non PP on track
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From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
SLS Irridium silver,2014 GL350 BT Irridium, 2015 White Dodge RAM Hemi Quad
Drove new PPP and my non PP on track
Well, after numerous laps yesterday at Calabogie Motorsports Park in Ottawa, I finally had the opportunity to drive numerous AMG models including the new 2010 C63 PPP equipped car while attending the Mercedes Benz Driving Academy which was offered by my dealer....anyway, after driving the 2010 performance equipped car, I will say that the extra 30 horsepower along with the PP brakes and stiffer suspension didnt make the car feel any faster than my 2008 C63 non PP(wasnt offered yet). What the professional driving instructors from Mercedes did say, is that only after many many hot laps will you notice the very slight advantage of braking with the different brakes. The car did not feel much flatter than my car and the horsepower after driving the two back to back on a road course was negligable. Keep in mind that this extra 30 horsepower really only tranlsates to 6.8% increase in power, so very very minimal. I who tends to track cars every now and then, would probably opt for the PP, but for someone who rarely or never tracks their car is simply wasting their money. This of course is my opinion only and I know there may be some of you who have this package will bash me, but really, if you have the PP where else would you reap the benefits or slight advantage over a non PP car besides on a road course.
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From: Japan
c63
WOW that is not good. I think important part is not number on how much HP gain, etc its what you feel with paying extra money. I thought 30hp is good amount but I guess not.
I think what AMG should have done is make car lighter. I had E46 M3 CSL and if you compare this to normal M3 its just totally different. On track or street. Engine, trans, suspention, etc was all different. So maybe for next C63 it will be great to have light weight C63 with Carbon parts of course the roof also. Then I think people will know the difference more and be happy to pay extra money.
I think what AMG should have done is make car lighter. I had E46 M3 CSL and if you compare this to normal M3 its just totally different. On track or street. Engine, trans, suspention, etc was all different. So maybe for next C63 it will be great to have light weight C63 with Carbon parts of course the roof also. Then I think people will know the difference more and be happy to pay extra money.
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From: Shanghai, Long Island(NY)
C63
Yes LSD is offered with performance package.
The only reason that lured me into getting pp is rear differential. I am careless about brake, top speed delimit but I love my steering wheel! But it doesn't look right that the only thing in my car covered in arcantara is my steering wheel, only 1/3 of it.
I haven't driven non pp on the track, but I think LSD definitely helps on the track. I feel achieved that I could hang with a F430 at Monticello motor club. I just simply love my car!
The only reason that lured me into getting pp is rear differential. I am careless about brake, top speed delimit but I love my steering wheel! But it doesn't look right that the only thing in my car covered in arcantara is my steering wheel, only 1/3 of it.
I haven't driven non pp on the track, but I think LSD definitely helps on the track. I feel achieved that I could hang with a F430 at Monticello motor club. I just simply love my car!
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From: Relocated
2010 Irridium Silver MB C63 AMG Sedan
My thoughts, gut feeling, and understanding (after asking A LOT of people who track/race constantly and after reading up on it) all along. Thats also why I asked about major difference on LSD vs. Non LSD. These are things that I considered when purchasing and deciding how I wanted to own this animal and how much I was going to spend/throw away on upgrades...
Thanks for a fair, real life assessment.
Thanks for a fair, real life assessment.
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Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 258
Likes: 1
From: Bellevue, WA
'10 C63 AMG P31, '88 Porsche 911 Carrera Coupe, '78 Toyota FJ40, '10 Audi Q7 TDi
For the 2010 MY there is no "PPP" package, so there's something not right with what the OP wrote.
In 2010 there is a P31 package (named "AMG Development Package"):
This also does NOT include the LSD. But LSD is an option for 2010.
There is NO P30 package for 2010.
(My 2010 C63 has P31 and LSD).
I'm not debating how the car felt in terms of power and braking (I have no experience other than with my car), but it should be no surprise it didn't handle any differently.
It is possible the car you drove was a 2009.
Or it might have been a 2010 with P31. With or without LSD. Just because it has P31 does not mean it has LSD. That could have a huge impact on how it felt on the track.
In 2010 there is a P31 package (named "AMG Development Package"):
- lightweight AMG forged pistons
- lightweight connecting rods
- revised crankshaft (lightweight?)
- revised ECU
- red-painted brake calipers
- CF trunk spoiler
- exclusive engine intake runners in titanium grey finish
- top speed increased to 174 mph
- power increase (+30 hp)
- AMG performance steering wheel in black premium leather with Alcantara side grips
- AMG high-performance braking system with compound front rotors 14.2" with 6-piston fixed calipers at front axle, perforated and internally ventilated for optimum weight and enhanced fatigue strength
This also does NOT include the LSD. But LSD is an option for 2010.
There is NO P30 package for 2010.
(My 2010 C63 has P31 and LSD).
I'm not debating how the car felt in terms of power and braking (I have no experience other than with my car), but it should be no surprise it didn't handle any differently.
It is possible the car you drove was a 2009.
Or it might have been a 2010 with P31. With or without LSD. Just because it has P31 does not mean it has LSD. That could have a huge impact on how it felt on the track.
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Joined: Apr 2010
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BMW
Can the OP advise whether the 2010 C63 PPP that he tracked was equipped with the LSD option?
I believe the PPP option code is APX and the defunct PP was APP. I have a 2011 C63 on order and am going nuts with the lack of information about what I am getting. I opted out of the PPP/APX option but added LSD (a must). If APX included the LSD I would have gotten it for the price of the current PPP (hearing me MB!?). For now, the cosmetic bits on the PPP are too obnoxious to justify the small performance gains IMO.
I believe the PPP option code is APX and the defunct PP was APP. I have a 2011 C63 on order and am going nuts with the lack of information about what I am getting. I opted out of the PPP/APX option but added LSD (a must). If APX included the LSD I would have gotten it for the price of the current PPP (hearing me MB!?). For now, the cosmetic bits on the PPP are too obnoxious to justify the small performance gains IMO.
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 258
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From: Bellevue, WA
'10 C63 AMG P31, '88 Porsche 911 Carrera Coupe, '78 Toyota FJ40, '10 Audi Q7 TDi
You seem to be implying that there is an option for 2010 called the Performance Plus Package.
This is not true. Per what I wrote above, MB changed things significantly for 2010.
There is NO "PPP" option for 2010 MY C63 cars.
There is NO "P30" option for 2010 MY C63 cars.
There IS a "P31" option for 2010 MY C63 cars. See above for what it includes. It is called "AMG Development Package"
There IS an LSD option for 2010 MY C63 cars. It is standalone option 471. It is NOT included in P31.
FWIW, my MY 2010 C63 has EVERY option available in the US market with the exception of carbon fiber interior trim.
P02 Premium 2 Package
320 Multimedia Package
318 AMG Seating Package
P31 AMG Development Package
471 Rear Limited Slip Differential
359 Mercedes-Benz mbrace
889 Keyless Go Card Key
218 Rear Electronic Parking Aid With Camera
293 Rear Side Airbags
201 Black Leather Interior
792 Palladium Silver Metallic
Black Maple Wood Trim
-cek
Last edited by cek; May 6, 2010 at 01:39 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,204
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From: Palos Verdes
'09 C63
Jae,
You seem to be implying that there is an option for 2010 called the Performance Plus Package.
This is not true. Per what I wrote above, MB changed things significantly for 2010.
There is NO "PPP" option for 2010 MY C63 cars.
There is NO "P30" option for 2010 MY C63 cars.
There IS a "P31" option for 2010 MY C63 cars. See above for what it includes. It is called "AMG Development Package"
There IS an LSD option for 2010 MY C63 cars. It is standalone option 471. It is NOT included in P31.
FWIW, my MY 2010 C63 has EVERY option available in the US market with the exception of carbon fiber interior trim.
P02 Premium 2 Package
320 Multimedia Package
318 AMG Seating Package
P31 AMG Development Package
471 Rear Limited Slip Differential
359 Mercedes-Benz mbrace
889 Keyless Go Card Key
218 Rear Electronic Parking Aid With Camera
293 Rear Side Airbags
201 Black Leather Interior
792 Palladium Silver Metallic
Black Maple Wood Trim
-cek
You seem to be implying that there is an option for 2010 called the Performance Plus Package.
This is not true. Per what I wrote above, MB changed things significantly for 2010.
There is NO "PPP" option for 2010 MY C63 cars.
There is NO "P30" option for 2010 MY C63 cars.
There IS a "P31" option for 2010 MY C63 cars. See above for what it includes. It is called "AMG Development Package"
There IS an LSD option for 2010 MY C63 cars. It is standalone option 471. It is NOT included in P31.
FWIW, my MY 2010 C63 has EVERY option available in the US market with the exception of carbon fiber interior trim.
P02 Premium 2 Package
320 Multimedia Package
318 AMG Seating Package
P31 AMG Development Package
471 Rear Limited Slip Differential
359 Mercedes-Benz mbrace
889 Keyless Go Card Key
218 Rear Electronic Parking Aid With Camera
293 Rear Side Airbags
201 Black Leather Interior
792 Palladium Silver Metallic
Black Maple Wood Trim
-cek
Different name same thing. I'm used to 1 year ago, as are some of the members here.
Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 100
Likes: 2
From: Loughborough, UK
AMG GT-S & GLE 63S Coupe
There is a package called PPP for MY2010 - I've just bought one. It's just that in the USA, it's not called PPP!
PPP stands for 'Performance Pack Plus' and is what P31 is referred to in Europe (P31 is meaningless over here). PPP (or P31 to those outside Europe) is the 30hp increase, composite brakes and red callipers and carbon rear lip. The LSD is an extra on top of PPP in Europe but may differ elsewhere.
I disagree with the OP that you cannot tell the difference between a PPP (P31) equipped car and one without - I have owned a non-PPP (P31) C63 (but with an LSD) and have now covered 1500 miles in my new PPP-equipped one; the only difference between the two cars is the extra 30hp and whilst I agree that there is little difference up to around 5000 rpm, above this and up to the red line it is noticeably quicker. In fact I reckon AMG have been a bit pessimistic with their 30hp claim; it feels like more (but of course I can't prove this yet!)
PPP stands for 'Performance Pack Plus' and is what P31 is referred to in Europe (P31 is meaningless over here). PPP (or P31 to those outside Europe) is the 30hp increase, composite brakes and red callipers and carbon rear lip. The LSD is an extra on top of PPP in Europe but may differ elsewhere.
I disagree with the OP that you cannot tell the difference between a PPP (P31) equipped car and one without - I have owned a non-PPP (P31) C63 (but with an LSD) and have now covered 1500 miles in my new PPP-equipped one; the only difference between the two cars is the extra 30hp and whilst I agree that there is little difference up to around 5000 rpm, above this and up to the red line it is noticeably quicker. In fact I reckon AMG have been a bit pessimistic with their 30hp claim; it feels like more (but of course I can't prove this yet!)
Thread Starter
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From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Alright, I am back...the car I drove is a 2010 C63 with the full P31, I termed it PPP previously as when it was first introduced it was known as that to distinguish it from the "old" performance pack, yes it had the red calipered brakes and carbon fiber wing on the trunk and the upgraded motor. As I stated, in real world driving as in day to day, light to light, this upgraded package feels no different than my 2008 C63. On the track there hardly seems to be a noticeable difference in performance, unless I bang off 20 consecutive laps in the PPP car, then only will there be a difference in braking performance. I did not see any entrance speed difference approaching corners and same on exit speed....this package will only be appreciated by the tracking rats. If I had a choice when I ordered my 2008, I would have opted for this performance package as I will somewhat utilize the small advantages on a track, unfortunately, it was not offered at the time. Again, I am not bashing or insulting, I just had the opportunity to drive this car the way it is supposed to be driven and had my car to compare with, I appologize if anyone feels dissed, but in real world driving, I think this P31 is great for bragging rights but utterly useless on the streets.
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,749
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From: PNW
'15 VW GTI
You definitely want a LSD, check my avatar, it's a quaife. I think the real question is for someone to get a stage 1 flash on a p31 car to see what you get. If it's the same as a non P31 w/ stage 1, say about 415whp, then i would skip the P31 and get the stage 1 flash.
Still loving my early-build 2008 as well!
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08 S65, 06 M3 CS(stick), 02 BMW X5 4.6iS, 07 R1 Raven, 08 F-450 4x4, 08 CooperS JCW
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PLAID
[QUOTE=cek;4062076]For the 2010 MY there is no "PPP" package, so there's something not right with what the OP wrote.
This also does NOT include the LSD. But LSD is an option for 2010.
There is NO P30 package for 2010.
*** Actually this is NOT accurate. The P30 was available on the C63 until the end of November 2009 (for build dates until Nov 2009). The P31 was offered starting Dec 2009 and thereafter. So, you could have a 2010 P30 C63 OR a 2010 P31 C63. ****
I have driven both and the P31 definitely from a butt dyno point of view feels quicker than a non P31 C63. Even though its only a 6% increase, power to weight wise its relevant. You can justify all you want not having a P31, BUT the fact is, its a superior package to the NON-P31 vehicle. I am referring to the original post about the AMG driving Academy. ***
(My 2010 C63 has P31 and LSD).
I'm not debating how the car felt in terms of power and braking (I have no
This also does NOT include the LSD. But LSD is an option for 2010.
There is NO P30 package for 2010.
*** Actually this is NOT accurate. The P30 was available on the C63 until the end of November 2009 (for build dates until Nov 2009). The P31 was offered starting Dec 2009 and thereafter. So, you could have a 2010 P30 C63 OR a 2010 P31 C63. ****
I have driven both and the P31 definitely from a butt dyno point of view feels quicker than a non P31 C63. Even though its only a 6% increase, power to weight wise its relevant. You can justify all you want not having a P31, BUT the fact is, its a superior package to the NON-P31 vehicle. I am referring to the original post about the AMG driving Academy. ***
(My 2010 C63 has P31 and LSD).
I'm not debating how the car felt in terms of power and braking (I have no
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Posts: 9,137
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From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
Well, after numerous laps yesterday at Calabogie Motorsports Park in Ottawa, I finally had the opportunity to drive numerous AMG models including the new 2010 C63 PPP equipped car while attending the Mercedes Benz Driving Academy which was offered by my dealer....anyway, after driving the 2010 performance equipped car, I will say that the extra 30 horsepower along with the PP brakes and stiffer suspension didnt make the car feel any faster than my 2008 C63 non PP(wasnt offered yet). What the professional driving instructors from Mercedes did say, is that only after many many hot laps will you notice the very slight advantage of braking with the different brakes. The car did not feel much flatter than my car and the horsepower after driving the two back to back on a road course was negligable. Keep in mind that this extra 30 horsepower really only tranlsates to 6.8% increase in power, so very very minimal. I who tends to track cars every now and then, would probably opt for the PP, but for someone who rarely or never tracks their car is simply wasting their money. This of course is my opinion only and I know there may be some of you who have this package will bash me, but really, if you have the PP where else would you reap the benefits or slight advantage over a non PP car besides on a road course.
I don't mean to complicate things further here, but the PPP (P31) option does not come with any suspension modification. The stiffer suspension came only as part of the P30 (old performance) package.
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From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
As answered above, the old Performance Package (P30) came with an LSD that was included in the package (although the first few cars shipped without it by mistake). However, the new Performance Package, named Performance Package Plus or P31 or AMG Development Package does NOT come with an LSD. However, the LSD is now available as a separate orderable option.
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From: Calgary, Canada
'10 F150 FX4 SCrew. '14 S212S
