_AMG_

ARE YOU KDDING ME?? Go look into KOOKS headers out in NY, they make TOP QUALITY headers for the Z06 and the ZR1 corvette and its not half as expensive as the the companies you mentioned above.

Ive asked my friend who is a Master certified tech at Mercedes and has worked there for over 13 years. I asked him what he thought about RENNtech and i wasn't expecting the answer he gave me. Hes worked on cl65 that had nothing but renntech parts on it, he said they make an excellent product but its not worth the price. They are a great company but all your paying for is the name. I mean who in there right mind would pay $2,500 for sound pipes?!?!? Im not here to bash any company, Ive loved RENNtech for years and the products they make. I cant say anything for MHP because i have no experience with them. But these companies, even though they make a great product are over charging by an obscene amount.

If i wanted headers and piping for my 63 i would go to burns stainless and have them custom make me an exhaust.

Dads C63

You missed the point. Kooks makes great headers and top quality. In fact I had Kooks headers on my F-body. How many headers do you think Kooks will make for the C6 Zo6 or ZR1? Call them and ask.

I would encourage you to call Burns Stainless and get a quote and see what they say for a one off. I think you will be shocked but keep us posted.

_AMG_

Ok, Let me ask you the same question. How many headers will MHP make for the c63? I dont know if there is a high demand for LTH for the 63, So i really cant answer that question unless you contact MHP and ask.
How many headers will KOOKS make for the zr1? I dunno, probably Not too many, considering you rarely see ZR1's on the street let alone modded ones. Even then the price on the zr1 headers are considerably less expensive then those of the 63's.
I guess it all boils down to the manufacturing process and the name your paying for.

Boost Gomez

He just said the price for the Z06 and ZR1 headers are less than half that of the C63 headers, and I'm pretty sure as implied by your post that they won't be making many of the Z06 or ZR1 headers. So even in limited quantities (maybe just as limited as the C63's), the headers are a small fraction of the price.

Dads C63

No, I insinuated that they will make many more of the Z06 and ZR1 than any of the manufacturers will make the C63. Call Kooks and ask them for a quote. Then call Burns and get a quote. This wasn't intended as an argument. Just a statement that do the homework and see what these guys tell you before claiming that the guys already making them are charging too much. You get what you pay for. This debate has been on many threads and not the first manufacturer has stepped up and offered to make them for less. Let us all know what you find and good luck.

In the mean time I'll keep enjoying the heck out of mine and blowing the competition away!!

Sincity

I know this type of discussion (AMG Tax) has been beaten to death, but it is refreshing to see a well-known tuner offering a product that is still less than what our US tuners (insert name of tuner offering C63 headers) are charging. Also consider that the price is lower (per ACGSD $2970 in the US) even after the Euro conversion, taxes, duty, shipping, etc is factored in. PLUS, this includes the profit margin for Cargraphic USA and ACGSD. So, we know there is a good-sized margin.

Hooley Boy proved that it can be done by offering his headers less than what was being sold before he came onto the scene with his 63 headers. Brian is also offering a lower cost (I'm sure he'll resolve his QC issues) alternative as well. But I think there is still a lot of room left.........

BTW Dad, I didn't pay top dollar for the car. I got it on sale last year.

Sincity

Also, from the same page, are these replacement DPs?

superlubricity

Yes and based on the description they bolt up to the factory manifolds and use the same mid pipe section as the headers with no CEL issues.

_AMG_

EXACTLY!!

blindfold

unless the headers are made of inconel or titanium or some other type of exotic heat resistant/light weight alloy, I refuse to pay at the current price point. I don't agree with the price, I won't pay, pretty simple.

However I am sure that in due time that long tube header prices will come down because those who are willing to pay at the higher price point would have bought them already. Therefore exhausting the demand at the particular bracket and could be potentially forced to move left along the supply line, just my optimistic guess.

emericr

I would be willing to bet that Kooks will sell less ZR1 headers than Renntech selling C63 headers. This issue has been debated many times.
ZR1 production numbers are about the same as C63 i.e. very low quantity
http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/...-released.html
Because they are people that think like you, the prices remain high.
Finally just because you have custom shops that do it this stuff by hand does not mean that you can't do them using a mass production system (i.e. computer based). This is how humanity evolves and how Chinese are kicking our ***.
It can and has been done otherwise how would you explain 911Turbo headers for $800.00
http://www.vertexauto.com/ShowItem/1...rformance.aspx

Sincity

14XX ZR1s is not too many units as compared to the C63. Also, there are probably a lot of content ZR1 owners that will probably not add headers so the numbers of headers being sold is quite low. Excuse my ignorance, but can the Z06 and ZR1 use the same header?

_AMG_

No one is starting an argument, And trust me ive done my homework, and the numbers speak for themselves.

KOOKS C6 Z06/ZR1 LONG TUBE HEADERS With 3" x pipe = $1685.91

MHP C63 AMG LONG TUBE HEADERS = $4495.00

You said that companies like Renntech or MHP don't take advantage of people or they're money. And all Im saying is that you are only paying for the name. Again, these companies make great products but they are VERY overpriced. So I'm asking why don't other companies (KOOKS, CORSA, ETC.) that make a parts with the same quality, and use the same engineering knowledge for a $120,000+ ZR1, have products considerably less expensive then that of a $70,000 C63? I dont wanna go around in circles discussing this subject over and over again, but i am assuming the point im making is clear.

_AMG_

AGREED 100%, producing Headers or exhausts made from super alloys such as inconel or titanium are very expensive, which would justify the high price, which i totally understand. But the metals used on the 63's are Stainless steel. I cant imagine how expensive titanium headers on a 63 would be. To be honest with you, i wouldn't even want to know haha.

hhughes1

Bottom line is do what ever you want....it's your car. I have had a Kleemann tune and MHP headers on for a year now. For about $6200(installed); I picked up ~100rwhp, improved the street driving experience beyond words and along with suspension and tire upgrades the car is top of the food chain at DE track events. A 575bhp C63 and a 451bhp C63 are two completely different cars. Compared to $2500 for 8 ounces of CF trim or the thousands of dollars being spent for glue on cosmetics, this was money well spent in my opinion. For those waiting for the price to drop.... every day is one less post mod and one day closer to parting company with the car.The formula would be $spent/days of ownership remaining.

Comparing to mass produced pricing for Ford and Chevy is just not relevent. I would estimate maybe 2 dozen members on this forum have LT's and MAYBE twice that number are waiting and would buy if the price dropped in half. MOST C63 owners would not consider the mod at all due to concerns about warranty coverage.

The ZO6 community is different and thousands of owners plan from day one to mod the crap out of their cars. This would also apply to the entire LT motor line(perhaps not the LT9) and all the Ford and Mopar V8's and V10's as well.


So wait if you want to but don't be surprised if there still aren't "affordable" headers available the day you are out shopping for your next car.

c32AMG-DTM

Can't speak to legal issues, but IMHO there are certainly moral/ethical issues with buying a product with the sole intent of shipping it off to China for reverse-engineering and cheap production. Regardless of that, I'd expect the point is moot - I'm confident that their definition of "short production run" would likely differ from yours by a large magnitude. IIRC, MBH looked into that for s' & g's, and an overseas fabricator isn't even interested in tooling up for your product and making an exhaust component production run unless you're ordering hundreds (if not thousands) of units at a pop. That's second-hand via the interwebz of course, so take it for what it's worth, but meshes with other similar accounts I've heard/read.

I would be really interested to learn the reply to that question - even if just an informal request, it'd be good knowledge for the subforum and might hopefully shed some light on this ceaseless debate.

cls55

what do you guys think of supersprint?are worth the money?i`m realy thinking of getting the set(headers,Centre exhaust + "X-Pipe,Front Pipes R.- L. (Replaces cats.,Connecting sleeves R.- L.)it`s for ml63.

Sincity

Supersprint makes a header for the ML63?

cls55

yes they do.

cls55

and a NICE one too.
http://www.supersprint.com/USP000merml07.asp

Sincity

Thanks for the heads-up. Looks like they will have one for our cars too:

http://www.supersprint.com/USP000mer2041.asp

Dyno: http://www.supersprint.com/USPG000mer2041.asp



Also looks like they may have a DP option as well.

alqamzi

^^ it looks good. And the price is less then other companies the guys mentioned...

Sincity

Looks like the Europeans (Cargraphic and Supersprint) adopt the usage of the stock secondary cats. I wonder why? TUV? Noise level restrictions?

HIRO63

When you are not in Europe and you buy product out side of that country do you still have to pay tax? When I bought product from Vath I did not have to pay tax so it was a good price.

That Supersprint header sure looks good

Dads C63

From one of the header manufacturers domestically: I ask the question,

Why do C63 LT Headers cost more than Camaro/ZR-1/Z06 Headers?

1) Being what you would call a "boutique" manufacturer (we do it all ourselves, just not 100 sets at a time) we can't buy steel tubing at 80 cents a foot like the big guys, more like 9 times that cost. Big deal you'd think since the headers aren't even 4 feet long, but the truth of the matter is that over 95FT (19, 5 foot sections) of stainless steel tubing goes into the 4 primary tubes alone in one set of our headers--this doesn't include the mids just the headers. This is because with a 1.5 D bender you have to allow for a certain amount of straight/untouched pipe after a mandrel bend--3ft going into the bender and 1 ft for it to grip on each side of the bend.

2) Note the amount of "cut-and-welds" necessary to complete a properly designed and fabricated set of headers for a C63 even with a 1.5/1.0 D bender. Now look at a set of Camaro/Corvette Headers. There are none in any of the chevy's, each cut and weld (in our fixtures) adds 1 hr of welding to just weld (not bend/cut). I'm not going to say how many cut and weld's our headers have in them (trying to educate consumers not competitors ) but you can get a decent idea by looking at the pics below. There are several obviously.

We make our headers using an on-site mandrel bender, we do NOT use pre fabricated and bent (generic) 30/45/60/90 degree tubing and throw them together as others do.

3) What I pay my employees and keeping $ in American hands. All of our hardware is designed, and manufactured by us here in the USA. Sure I could outsource the production to China and cut price at least in half, however I'm not going to do that for more reasons than I can count, the most important of which are:

a) I'd rather go under than take business/jobs out of our country for reasons of greater profit.

b) Quality Control, doing it in-house with salaried employees means we have ultimate control, going overseas means you have Zero.

c) I pay my certified master TIG welders (each with over 15 years of experience and not one with a single set ever returned) what they deserve to be paid for putting out the craftsmanship they do set after set. Anyone that is good at what they do deserves to be paid a fair rate, my guys do world class work (look at the pics, our customers pics, and the call the shops that install them) and I pay them accordingly. Because of my faith in them we have a 100% lifetime warranty on all parts and workmanship.

d) Outsourcing to another country is a great way to get your stuff knocked off.

4) Look at the overall design and execution of the headers (chevy vs our C63s), there are obvious differences in quality all around. Most importantly, I don't use $50 collectors, buying 10 sets at a time from the manufacturer (the only part of our headers that we don't make and that does have to be sourced outside the U.S.) my cost is $800 per set. Why? Because they are the best high velocity merge collectors I can find, spun 316 stainless, and the collector is the MOST important part of a longtube header. Not only does no North American header manufacturer uses the same collectors we do, but when they buy them they buy 200-300 sets at a time.

Next look at the primary's themselves, look at the radii of both the first and second set of bends. Notice how abrupt they are on the domestic offerings and how smooth (as obtuse as possible) they are with ours? Also notice that the cut and welds are perfectly aligned on our headers; if not perfectly aligned a single cut and weld can destroy significant power and torque.

Now look at how much tubing (straight) after the second bends that lead back to the collectors, and note the angle of the primaries entering the collectors. Our tubes come in parallel immediately after the second bend (if not before) on the mass produced camaro/chevy headers you'll see angles of 15 degrees or more--you want as much straight tubing as possible leading into the collector that's a fact.

Also important to note that the ease of installation of our headers combined with the fact that there is no cutting or welding of either our system or the factory system (pure bolt-in design) means we save you labor costs on installation. We actually have multiple users that installed their own longtubes, props to them.

Flanges, we use a laser cutter and we purchase a fraction of 316 stock that our larger competitors do, cost is exponentially higher for us again here.

5) Volume...This factor alone justifies the cost in this specific case. We MAY sell 50 sets of headers EVER for this platform (W204 C63), Kooks will sell 100 sets of ZR1 headers this year, SWorks sold over 300 sets of 2010 Camaro headers in the first 6 mos. I can go on but I think you get the idea.

There are many more facets to this break-down than I have posted here, but hopefully most will digest the info above and realize that the person that's truely making out at the end of the day is the consumer--netting 100rwhp/60rwtq SAE from headers and a tune on an N/A platform is pretty insane. I will flat out state publicly that my cost to make these headers (in-house) is over $2700 per set. Now factor in that most sets are sold through dealers/distributors and that we have to allow them to make a profit as well. So straight up from the horses mouth we make less than $1000 per set of headers sold, less than a 25% profit margin on something we designed and continue to create. I'm sure MBAs all over are biting their tongues but the fact remains we do things the way we do them because we know they work, we're never going to profit by selling American jobs, and the market we cater to is highly specific.

The bottom line is that we will never compromise performance for cost savings, even if it means losing sales to competing entities--we cater to racers and serious performance enthusiasts, those that can discern the difference between actual race hardware and other "also ran" offerings.

BTW, Burns Stainless does not build headers, they fabricate and design components that the end user uses to build their own headers. However if you were to purchase the tubing, collectors, flanges, from them I can guarantee you that even when using a "decent" fabricator to put them together, you will be over $7k a set.