Cheep headers from one of the best german companies
06-10-2010, 08:31 AM
#101
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2021 Porsche TTS
MBH, please don't insult our intelligence by telling us you are running a shop for the fun of it and you are not making any money.
I have posted on this thread and asked 2 questions which still remains unanswered regarding $800 for headers for a 911Turbo or $300 diffuser versus $1,300 ones.
I am a CFO as well for am manufacturing firm and it is easy to manipulate the numbers and state that you have 50K invested and only sold X amount of headers.
Bottom line as previously stated, supply at this price point for headers will remain if demand is there. It appears there are plenty of people with deep pockets who will pay. I respect both the buyers and the sellers. More power to them.
Once this is gone, price will go down and people with limited budget like myself will jump on the bandwagon.
I have posted on this thread and asked 2 questions which still remains unanswered regarding $800 for headers for a 911Turbo or $300 diffuser versus $1,300 ones.
I am a CFO as well for am manufacturing firm and it is easy to manipulate the numbers and state that you have 50K invested and only sold X amount of headers.
Bottom line as previously stated, supply at this price point for headers will remain if demand is there. It appears there are plenty of people with deep pockets who will pay. I respect both the buyers and the sellers. More power to them.
Once this is gone, price will go down and people with limited budget like myself will jump on the bandwagon.
06-10-2010, 09:17 AM
#102
Former Vendor of MBWorld
MBH, please don't insult our intelligence by telling us you are running a shop for the fun of it and you are not making any money.
I have posted on this thread and asked 2 questions which still remains unanswered regarding $800 for headers for a 911Turbo or $300 diffuser versus $1,300 ones.
I am a CFO as well for am manufacturing firm and it is easy to manipulate the numbers and state that you have 50K invested and only sold X amount of headers.
Bottom line as previously stated, supply at this price point for headers will remain if demand is there. It appears there are plenty of people with deep pockets who will pay. I respect both the buyers and the sellers. More power to them.
Once this is gone, price will go down and people with limited budget like myself will jump on the bandwagon.
I have posted on this thread and asked 2 questions which still remains unanswered regarding $800 for headers for a 911Turbo or $300 diffuser versus $1,300 ones.
I am a CFO as well for am manufacturing firm and it is easy to manipulate the numbers and state that you have 50K invested and only sold X amount of headers.
Bottom line as previously stated, supply at this price point for headers will remain if demand is there. It appears there are plenty of people with deep pockets who will pay. I respect both the buyers and the sellers. More power to them.
Once this is gone, price will go down and people with limited budget like myself will jump on the bandwagon.
If you want real cheap priced long tubes, I can make that happen. I've been approached many of times to take my product over seas. I could get the headers made for like $400 then sell them for $1500 all day long and still have a much bigger profit margin. I heard some over seas stuff is good quality too. However there is a downside to that. On a local level, it takes away from work my fabrication team needs to stay employed.
People say biz is biz, but when the people helping to make these projects possible are your friends. Its becomes different. The one thing this industry lacks is loyalty. Blinded by $$$, people quickly forget who help put them on the map. I wish my fab team and partners were not my friends, but they are and its something I hold higher than any header profit margins.
06-10-2010, 09:21 AM
#103
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2008 A8L, 2002 996TT X50, 2009 X5
EVOMS:
http://www.evoms.com/marketplace/Mar...25F5D8D312E%7D
Switzer:
http://www.switzerperformanceinnovation.com/ (website's down for a revamp, unfortunately)
Supersprint:
http://www.supersprintna.com/categor...ategory_id/139
FVD:
http://www.fvd.de/us/en/Porsche-0/99...8/Headers.html
Aside from the fact that they mostly seem to be roughly $2k+ (most $3k+) headers, you're also dealing with a rear-engined flat-six - the headers are pretty small compared to a front-engined V8. So, it's not the material costs driving that price - it's supply/demand (as you correctly point out) and the realization by the manufacturers/vendors that their R&D costs will be recouped over a much more limited number of sales. Just a guess on my part, but I'd also estimate that more 997 Turbo headers are sold than C63 headers... so again, pricing efficiencies exist because costs are spread over a larger unit base.
By the way, you might not know the history of MBH Motorsports, but hooleyboy started it as a side project (and in conjunction with Dyno Comp) for bringing certain hardware (primarily, headers) to MB/AMG enthusiasts. As it's a relatively recent endeavour for him, I don't doubt his figures for a minute - each time MBH orders a jig for a new set of headers, I'd bet he needs to sell at least 5 sets at retail (maybe more than 5) before they'd even break even on the product.
But theres nothing wrong with wishful thinking as long as you don't let the day dreams interfere with your reality. 
Last edited by c32AMG-DTM; 06-10-2010 at 09:24 AM.
06-10-2010, 09:54 AM
#104
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2021 Porsche TTS
You guys are really funny.
if according to you, what drives the price is the cost, then it does not matter whether you are trying to sell a product for a 10 year old car or a 2 year old car.
The company selling $800 headers is a very reputable German manufacturer (Schnell) and I would dare to venture that his personel cost is the same as the US whereas Easter countries.
MBH, I respect the fact that you want to keep the jobs in the US but at least you are honest to state that headers could be produced at a cost of $400 and sold for $1,500.
Thanks for the honest and "non bashing" responses from everyone.
if according to you, what drives the price is the cost, then it does not matter whether you are trying to sell a product for a 10 year old car or a 2 year old car.
The company selling $800 headers is a very reputable German manufacturer (Schnell) and I would dare to venture that his personel cost is the same as the US whereas Easter countries.
MBH, I respect the fact that you want to keep the jobs in the US but at least you are honest to state that headers could be produced at a cost of $400 and sold for $1,500.
Thanks for the honest and "non bashing" responses from everyone.
06-10-2010, 12:23 PM
#105
MBWorld Fanatic!
The development cost alone on the C55 turned out to be upwards of 14K, Just for one model car. About $3800 for the headers and $10K for the jigs.... In the end the product was awesome, but that means crap if I got about $$$ wrapped up in a set of headers. In fact it feels like a blunder
Blunder, because I've only sold 1 set of C55 headers ever! Knowing how soft the C55 market was, I then tossed out another $10K to make E55 header jigs. With a mild tweak of the E55's design I got them to fit both the E55 and CLS55. Shelling out another $1500 to alter the design slightly.
I've got over $50k invested just in headers and jigs. I dont feel bad about it at all, I could and would have lost it in the stock market. If I didnt make headers. However investing in Wall St. Is not my idea of fun. I do this because it is fun. I like to make cars I care about go faster. In the end, you hope after making a big investment, that there is some reward at the end.
Smaller shops that sponsor this site, basically work around the clock making sure things are in order. In fact to even make this header game remotely possible, I still work a day job, as The CFO of a family run ESD/Anti-Static/Clean Room business. I'm in a great position in life that I can take a few hours, install a set of headers then head back to work with some dirt still under my finger nails.
The gaol is... Yes, to make some money. But the real goal in this monster of a project is, just to try and break even. If I can do that?? It works out as a win win for a lot of people. That would otherwise not have an option like this to choose from.
If I new I would sell 200 sets of headers per model, The price would be much lower. Until then, pricing is this... Risk+time+money+demand=????
The truth is I want to get you guys a good deal on headers. Something that wows you when you first open the box, all the way past the last gear in your car.
Blunder, because I've only sold 1 set of C55 headers ever! Knowing how soft the C55 market was, I then tossed out another $10K to make E55 header jigs. With a mild tweak of the E55's design I got them to fit both the E55 and CLS55. Shelling out another $1500 to alter the design slightly.
I've got over $50k invested just in headers and jigs. I dont feel bad about it at all, I could and would have lost it in the stock market. If I didnt make headers. However investing in Wall St. Is not my idea of fun. I do this because it is fun. I like to make cars I care about go faster. In the end, you hope after making a big investment, that there is some reward at the end.
Smaller shops that sponsor this site, basically work around the clock making sure things are in order. In fact to even make this header game remotely possible, I still work a day job, as The CFO of a family run ESD/Anti-Static/Clean Room business. I'm in a great position in life that I can take a few hours, install a set of headers then head back to work with some dirt still under my finger nails.
The gaol is... Yes, to make some money. But the real goal in this monster of a project is, just to try and break even. If I can do that?? It works out as a win win for a lot of people. That would otherwise not have an option like this to choose from.
If I new I would sell 200 sets of headers per model, The price would be much lower. Until then, pricing is this... Risk+time+money+demand=????
The truth is I want to get you guys a good deal on headers. Something that wows you when you first open the box, all the way past the last gear in your car.
Hooley, thank you for being open about this. I didn't know the cost of having the jig made was so expensive. But if the 1st jig costs $10k and 2nd is $5k, didn't he overcharge on the 1st one? That is a huge price differential. About the overseas comment. I do not know your sales figures, but my interpretation from what you are saying, you are selling many or enough to keep your fabrication team employed. Also, you stated you would have a higher margin if made overseas; if I read it correctly. From a strict business standpoint, it would seem that you would profit more having them made overseas, right? This seems to be a dilemma for the US right now. We are begining to move away from our industrial roots to satisfy our demand for lower priced, foreign-made goods.
BTW-great welds on your headers. Can't wait to hear bhamg's car when he brings it over.
Last edited by Sincity; 06-10-2010 at 02:54 PM.
06-10-2010, 12:42 PM
#106
MBWorld Fanatic!
Bingo. Same header/exhaust company - and yet they sell 63 AMG headers for almost 2x what their Z06 header sells for. I can see it now, some folks thinking "well, well... that's just 'cause they know the AMG owners are dumb enough to pay that much." LOL. No, it's called economies of scale, and apparently is a concept some folks just cannot (or will not) grasp.
06-10-2010, 03:21 PM
#107
Yes and no. In the M5 community I have heard of headers leaking at the spring joint...some are choosing to weld there instead. My E39 M5 Supersprint exhaust tips are off center...I was going to return the whole exhaust after it was installed and then I found out they were all like that.
06-10-2010, 05:50 PM
#110
You guys are really funny.
if according to you, what drives the price is the cost, then it does not matter whether you are trying to sell a product for a 10 year old car or a 2 year old car.
The company selling $800 headers is a very reputable German manufacturer (Schnell) and I would dare to venture that his personel cost is the same as the US whereas Easter countries.
MBH, I respect the fact that you want to keep the jobs in the US but at least you are honest to state that headers could be produced at a cost of $400 and sold for $1,500.
Thanks for the honest and "non bashing" responses from everyone.
if according to you, what drives the price is the cost, then it does not matter whether you are trying to sell a product for a 10 year old car or a 2 year old car.
The company selling $800 headers is a very reputable German manufacturer (Schnell) and I would dare to venture that his personel cost is the same as the US whereas Easter countries.
MBH, I respect the fact that you want to keep the jobs in the US but at least you are honest to state that headers could be produced at a cost of $400 and sold for $1,500.
Thanks for the honest and "non bashing" responses from everyone.
Headers
022 242 101 Price: $5,667.25
Each header incorporates CNC laser cut port matched flanges. Primary tubes are mandrel bent using the latest CNC tube bending equipment.
06-10-2010, 10:23 PM
#111
MBWorld Fanatic!
The 911 uses a boxer engine and the headers are exposed facing down and they are much shorter. The Cayene instead run much longer headers, more quantity and they are more difficult to create.
They are both Porsche cars but different configurations. Also the Porsche 911 style headers has been aaround for like 40 years(similar configuration), the Cayene's motor is very new and there is not a whole lot of space. I have had a 911 (964)Carrera 4 Cabriolet and that is why I know the undercarriage of the 911. You have way more room to work on them and they have almost no obstruction. My .2c
06-10-2010, 10:33 PM
#112
Not to start an argument but the 911 turbo headers and the Cayenne are absolutely differentheaders by all means.
The 911 uses a boxer engine and the headers are exposed facing down and they are much shorter. The Cayene instead run much longer headers, more quantity and they are more difficult to create.
They are both Porsche cars but different configurations. Also the Porsche 911 style headers has been aaround for like 40 years(similar configuration), the Cayene's motor is very new and there is not a whole lot of space. I have had a 911 (964)Carrera 4 Cabriolet and that is why I know the undercarriage of the 911. You have way more room to work on them and they have almost no obstruction. My .2c
The 911 uses a boxer engine and the headers are exposed facing down and they are much shorter. The Cayene instead run much longer headers, more quantity and they are more difficult to create.
They are both Porsche cars but different configurations. Also the Porsche 911 style headers has been aaround for like 40 years(similar configuration), the Cayene's motor is very new and there is not a whole lot of space. I have had a 911 (964)Carrera 4 Cabriolet and that is why I know the undercarriage of the 911. You have way more room to work on them and they have almost no obstruction. My .2c
06-11-2010, 10:27 AM
#113
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2021 Porsche TTS
You guys are too funny.
I get an example of a low production car but someone now states that the 911 has been produced for many years and that is the reason why you can find cheap headers. If that was the case, then find me cheap headers for the 2010 911 Turbo. NOT...
We could go on forever finding high end cars with ridiculous pricing for parts. The deeper the pocket, the more you will be charged.
I get an example of a low production car but someone now states that the 911 has been produced for many years and that is the reason why you can find cheap headers. If that was the case, then find me cheap headers for the 2010 911 Turbo. NOT...
We could go on forever finding high end cars with ridiculous pricing for parts. The deeper the pocket, the more you will be charged.
06-11-2010, 05:32 PM
#115
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2012 C63 AMG Sedan(with AMG Performance Package Plus, Premium & Premium Rear Seating Packages)
Is this cheap?
evosport pk2
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/e55-e...Q5fAccessories
Starting bid: US $2,275.00
evolution 2 Power Package
- evosport "shorty" performance headers (ceramic coated, easy bolt-in design)
- evosport 8mm plug wires
- Powerchip/evosport custom-tuned evolution 2 software
- Requires evo1 Power Package (Call for evo2 pricing without evo1)
No bids yet.
evosport pk2
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/e55-e...Q5fAccessories
Starting bid: US $2,275.00
evolution 2 Power Package
- evosport "shorty" performance headers (ceramic coated, easy bolt-in design)
- evosport 8mm plug wires
- Powerchip/evosport custom-tuned evolution 2 software
- Requires evo1 Power Package (Call for evo2 pricing without evo1)
No bids yet.
06-11-2010, 07:18 PM
#116
MBWorld Fanatic!
Is this cheap?
evosport pk2
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/e55-e...Q5fAccessories
Starting bid: US $2,275.00
evolution 2 Power Package
- evosport "shorty" performance headers (ceramic coated, easy bolt-in design)
- evosport 8mm plug wires
- Powerchip/evosport custom-tuned evolution 2 software
- Requires evo1 Power Package (Call for evo2 pricing without evo1)
No bids yet.
evosport pk2
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/e55-e...Q5fAccessories
Starting bid: US $2,275.00
evolution 2 Power Package
- evosport "shorty" performance headers (ceramic coated, easy bolt-in design)
- evosport 8mm plug wires
- Powerchip/evosport custom-tuned evolution 2 software
- Requires evo1 Power Package (Call for evo2 pricing without evo1)
No bids yet.
06-12-2010, 04:04 AM
#117
MBWorld Fanatic!
Oh well.
06-17-2010, 04:21 PM
#119
MBWorld Fanatic!
http://www.muffler-tech.com/custom_headers.htm
$1200 CAD for custom headers. I wonder if that is per bank?
$1200 CAD for custom headers. I wonder if that is per bank?
06-23-2010, 11:53 PM
#122
MBWorld Fanatic!
06-24-2010, 01:44 PM
#125
MBWorld Fanatic!
Good to know that MBW pricing will be less. Also good to know that you can also do my K2 tune and that Chubbs32 had a good experience with you trying to install the GT Pro headers. So, now need to save up for either K2 hardware or Cargraphic and convince the wife we need to take a 2-day trip to San Diego.
