Cheep headers from one of the best german companies
06-08-2010, 11:50 PM
#77
MBWorld Fanatic!
Dad'd63,
I appreciate your response and the time that it took you to write. There is no doubt in my mind that you enjoy your headers everyday (I would too). I think most of the people here arguing the prices (like me) show a great deal of frustration. We know that for instance MHP(just an example) makes great headers but most of us are looking at a more reasonable set of headers(price wise).
I hardly read of any complaints on headers made for the most popular american muscle cars, people are more than happy to pay ($1200-$1600) for a V8 set of headers, for the most part people don't care much of the "hand built" factor as long as they don't crack and they produce good power.
Obviously the demand plays a large role into the price but I insist that there is a large margin of profit that makes the purchase of the header questionable. I think Kook could make headers for C63 for a reasonable price just like most companies could.
Please look at this:
http://www.lgmotorsports.com/catalog...oducts_id=2113
Please tell me that the quality isn't there!!
I appreciate your response and the time that it took you to write. There is no doubt in my mind that you enjoy your headers everyday (I would too). I think most of the people here arguing the prices (like me) show a great deal of frustration. We know that for instance MHP(just an example) makes great headers but most of us are looking at a more reasonable set of headers(price wise).
I hardly read of any complaints on headers made for the most popular american muscle cars, people are more than happy to pay ($1200-$1600) for a V8 set of headers, for the most part people don't care much of the "hand built" factor as long as they don't crack and they produce good power.
Obviously the demand plays a large role into the price but I insist that there is a large margin of profit that makes the purchase of the header questionable. I think Kook could make headers for C63 for a reasonable price just like most companies could.
Please look at this:
http://www.lgmotorsports.com/catalog...oducts_id=2113
Please tell me that the quality isn't there!!
Last edited by C63newdude; 06-08-2010 at 11:54 PM.
06-09-2010, 12:33 AM
#78
MBWorld Fanatic!
I don't have any header on my car so I cant say anything about who is good or bad. I think MHP makes great product. But I think always expensive = great product. And cheap= bad product. There is product that is out there that is cheap in price and great product with a lot of HP gain. No one here ever compared all the LTH but if you do cheap price one may give you huge power or same as MHP LTH. I think that all the companies product is great if the person who bought it like it.
06-09-2010, 07:57 AM
#80
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2014 Audi RS7
I cannot and was not trying to advertise for MHP. I was only informing you of the challenges manufacturing a high quality header like Renntech, MHP, or others in very limited quantities. If you want to see pictures you'll have to go to their website.
06-09-2010, 08:21 AM
#81
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2008 A8L, 2002 996TT X50, 2009 X5
http://www.supersprintna.com/categor...tegory_id/139/
Pay attention to the "notes" - LT headers with cats would run almost $10,000. LT headers w/o cats would be a little north of $5,600.
Last edited by c32AMG-DTM; 06-09-2010 at 08:24 AM.
06-09-2010, 09:06 AM
#83
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2021 Porsche TTS
Dadc63, no one is questioning the quality and the output of your headers, and your reasoning regarding $$ spent per minute of ownership is a very valid point.
However, I still contend that it does not cost that much to produce our headers. See my link on a prior post regarding 911 Turbo headers for 800ish dollars.
Furthermore, it is apparent that the older the car, the cheaper the prices are which would seem to go inline with the thought that the demand is what drives the price.
As an analogy, look at the carbonfiber rear diffuser, some companies want to charge $1300 whereas others are content to charge $300. Other than for minor cosmetic changes, they are the same. Someone is making a $1,000 profit per diffuser...
However, I still contend that it does not cost that much to produce our headers. See my link on a prior post regarding 911 Turbo headers for 800ish dollars.
Furthermore, it is apparent that the older the car, the cheaper the prices are which would seem to go inline with the thought that the demand is what drives the price.
As an analogy, look at the carbonfiber rear diffuser, some companies want to charge $1300 whereas others are content to charge $300. Other than for minor cosmetic changes, they are the same. Someone is making a $1,000 profit per diffuser...
06-09-2010, 09:22 AM
#84
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2014 Audi RS7
I'll close with this final comment. The 63 platform is in its last few years of production so the aftermarket demand will diminish due to the limited number produced and the even further limited number of guys that will be modding them due to the cost. Keep waiting for the cheaper headers and you may not end up with a set at all. I'm glad I bought mine and enjoying them every day if desired.
06-09-2010, 11:29 AM
#85
A car does not have to be in production to command interest in the aftermarket demand, one example would be the MkIV Supra, last production was in 1998, 12 years later, parts are are still ample. So the thought of not finding header after production terminates is somewhat reasonable but unnecessary.
06-09-2010, 01:51 PM
#86
MBWorld Fanatic!
Dadc63, no one is questioning the quality and the output of your headers, and your reasoning regarding $$ spent per minute of ownership is a very valid point.
However, I still contend that it does not cost that much to produce our headers. See my link on a prior post regarding 911 Turbo headers for 800ish dollars.
Furthermore, it is apparent that the older the car, the cheaper the prices are which would seem to go inline with the thought that the demand is what drives the price.
As an analogy, look at the carbonfiber rear diffuser, some companies want to charge $1300 whereas others are content to charge $300. Other than for minor cosmetic changes, they are the same. Someone is making a $1,000 profit per diffuser...
However, I still contend that it does not cost that much to produce our headers. See my link on a prior post regarding 911 Turbo headers for 800ish dollars.
Furthermore, it is apparent that the older the car, the cheaper the prices are which would seem to go inline with the thought that the demand is what drives the price.
As an analogy, look at the carbonfiber rear diffuser, some companies want to charge $1300 whereas others are content to charge $300. Other than for minor cosmetic changes, they are the same. Someone is making a $1,000 profit per diffuser...
06-09-2010, 02:15 PM
#87
MBWorld Fanatic!
From one of the header manufacturers domestically: I ask the question,
Why do C63 LT Headers cost more than Camaro/ZR-1/Z06 Headers?
1) Being what you would call a "boutique" manufacturer (we do it all ourselves, just not 100 sets at a time) we can't buy steel tubing at 80 cents a foot like the big guys, more like 9 times that cost. Big deal you'd think since the headers aren't even 4 feet long, but the truth of the matter is that over 95FT (19, 5 foot sections) of stainless steel tubing goes into the 4 primary tubes alone in one set of our headers--this doesn't include the mids just the headers. This is because with a 1.5 D bender you have to allow for a certain amount of straight/untouched pipe after a mandrel bend--3ft going into the bender and 1 ft for it to grip on each side of the bend.
2) Note the amount of "cut-and-welds" necessary to complete a properly designed and fabricated set of headers for a C63 even with a 1.5/1.0 D bender. Now look at a set of Camaro/Corvette Headers. There are none in any of the chevy's, each cut and weld (in our fixtures) adds 1 hr of welding to just weld (not bend/cut). I'm not going to say how many cut and weld's our headers have in them (trying to educate consumers not competitors ) but you can get a decent idea by looking at the pics below. There are several obviously.
We make our headers using an on-site mandrel bender, we do NOT use pre fabricated and bent (generic) 30/45/60/90 degree tubing and throw them together as others do.
3) What I pay my employees and keeping $ in American hands. All of our hardware is designed, and manufactured by us here in the USA. Sure I could outsource the production to China and cut price at least in half, however I'm not going to do that for more reasons than I can count, the most important of which are:
a) I'd rather go under than take business/jobs out of our country for reasons of greater profit.
b) Quality Control, doing it in-house with salaried employees means we have ultimate control, going overseas means you have Zero.
c) I pay my certified master TIG welders (each with over 15 years of experience and not one with a single set ever returned) what they deserve to be paid for putting out the craftsmanship they do set after set. Anyone that is good at what they do deserves to be paid a fair rate, my guys do world class work (look at the pics, our customers pics, and the call the shops that install them) and I pay them accordingly. Because of my faith in them we have a 100% lifetime warranty on all parts and workmanship.
d) Outsourcing to another country is a great way to get your stuff knocked off.
4) Look at the overall design and execution of the headers (chevy vs our C63s), there are obvious differences in quality all around. Most importantly, I don't use $50 collectors, buying 10 sets at a time from the manufacturer (the only part of our headers that we don't make and that does have to be sourced outside the U.S.) my cost is $800 per set. Why? Because they are the best high velocity merge collectors I can find, spun 316 stainless, and the collector is the MOST important part of a longtube header. Not only does no North American header manufacturer uses the same collectors we do, but when they buy them they buy 200-300 sets at a time.
Next look at the primary's themselves, look at the radii of both the first and second set of bends. Notice how abrupt they are on the domestic offerings and how smooth (as obtuse as possible) they are with ours? Also notice that the cut and welds are perfectly aligned on our headers; if not perfectly aligned a single cut and weld can destroy significant power and torque.
Now look at how much tubing (straight) after the second bends that lead back to the collectors, and note the angle of the primaries entering the collectors. Our tubes come in parallel immediately after the second bend (if not before) on the mass produced camaro/chevy headers you'll see angles of 15 degrees or more--you want as much straight tubing as possible leading into the collector that's a fact.
Also important to note that the ease of installation of our headers combined with the fact that there is no cutting or welding of either our system or the factory system (pure bolt-in design) means we save you labor costs on installation. We actually have multiple users that installed their own longtubes, props to them.
Flanges, we use a laser cutter and we purchase a fraction of 316 stock that our larger competitors do, cost is exponentially higher for us again here.
5) Volume...This factor alone justifies the cost in this specific case. We MAY sell 50 sets of headers EVER for this platform (W204 C63), Kooks will sell 100 sets of ZR1 headers this year, SWorks sold over 300 sets of 2010 Camaro headers in the first 6 mos. I can go on but I think you get the idea.
There are many more facets to this break-down than I have posted here, but hopefully most will digest the info above and realize that the person that's truely making out at the end of the day is the consumer--netting 100rwhp/60rwtq SAE from headers and a tune on an N/A platform is pretty insane. I will flat out state publicly that my cost to make these headers (in-house) is over $2700 per set. Now factor in that most sets are sold through dealers/distributors and that we have to allow them to make a profit as well. So straight up from the horses mouth we make less than $1000 per set of headers sold, less than a 25% profit margin on something we designed and continue to create. I'm sure MBAs all over are biting their tongues but the fact remains we do things the way we do them because we know they work, we're never going to profit by selling American jobs, and the market we cater to is highly specific.
The bottom line is that we will never compromise performance for cost savings, even if it means losing sales to competing entities--we cater to racers and serious performance enthusiasts, those that can discern the difference between actual race hardware and other "also ran" offerings.
BTW, Burns Stainless does not build headers, they fabricate and design components that the end user uses to build their own headers. However if you were to purchase the tubing, collectors, flanges, from them I can guarantee you that even when using a "decent" fabricator to put them together, you will be over $7k a set.
Why do C63 LT Headers cost more than Camaro/ZR-1/Z06 Headers?
1) Being what you would call a "boutique" manufacturer (we do it all ourselves, just not 100 sets at a time) we can't buy steel tubing at 80 cents a foot like the big guys, more like 9 times that cost. Big deal you'd think since the headers aren't even 4 feet long, but the truth of the matter is that over 95FT (19, 5 foot sections) of stainless steel tubing goes into the 4 primary tubes alone in one set of our headers--this doesn't include the mids just the headers. This is because with a 1.5 D bender you have to allow for a certain amount of straight/untouched pipe after a mandrel bend--3ft going into the bender and 1 ft for it to grip on each side of the bend.
2) Note the amount of "cut-and-welds" necessary to complete a properly designed and fabricated set of headers for a C63 even with a 1.5/1.0 D bender. Now look at a set of Camaro/Corvette Headers. There are none in any of the chevy's, each cut and weld (in our fixtures) adds 1 hr of welding to just weld (not bend/cut). I'm not going to say how many cut and weld's our headers have in them (trying to educate consumers not competitors ) but you can get a decent idea by looking at the pics below. There are several obviously.
We make our headers using an on-site mandrel bender, we do NOT use pre fabricated and bent (generic) 30/45/60/90 degree tubing and throw them together as others do.
3) What I pay my employees and keeping $ in American hands. All of our hardware is designed, and manufactured by us here in the USA. Sure I could outsource the production to China and cut price at least in half, however I'm not going to do that for more reasons than I can count, the most important of which are:
a) I'd rather go under than take business/jobs out of our country for reasons of greater profit.
b) Quality Control, doing it in-house with salaried employees means we have ultimate control, going overseas means you have Zero.
c) I pay my certified master TIG welders (each with over 15 years of experience and not one with a single set ever returned) what they deserve to be paid for putting out the craftsmanship they do set after set. Anyone that is good at what they do deserves to be paid a fair rate, my guys do world class work (look at the pics, our customers pics, and the call the shops that install them) and I pay them accordingly. Because of my faith in them we have a 100% lifetime warranty on all parts and workmanship.
d) Outsourcing to another country is a great way to get your stuff knocked off.
4) Look at the overall design and execution of the headers (chevy vs our C63s), there are obvious differences in quality all around. Most importantly, I don't use $50 collectors, buying 10 sets at a time from the manufacturer (the only part of our headers that we don't make and that does have to be sourced outside the U.S.) my cost is $800 per set. Why? Because they are the best high velocity merge collectors I can find, spun 316 stainless, and the collector is the MOST important part of a longtube header. Not only does no North American header manufacturer uses the same collectors we do, but when they buy them they buy 200-300 sets at a time.
Next look at the primary's themselves, look at the radii of both the first and second set of bends. Notice how abrupt they are on the domestic offerings and how smooth (as obtuse as possible) they are with ours? Also notice that the cut and welds are perfectly aligned on our headers; if not perfectly aligned a single cut and weld can destroy significant power and torque.
Now look at how much tubing (straight) after the second bends that lead back to the collectors, and note the angle of the primaries entering the collectors. Our tubes come in parallel immediately after the second bend (if not before) on the mass produced camaro/chevy headers you'll see angles of 15 degrees or more--you want as much straight tubing as possible leading into the collector that's a fact.
Also important to note that the ease of installation of our headers combined with the fact that there is no cutting or welding of either our system or the factory system (pure bolt-in design) means we save you labor costs on installation. We actually have multiple users that installed their own longtubes, props to them.
Flanges, we use a laser cutter and we purchase a fraction of 316 stock that our larger competitors do, cost is exponentially higher for us again here.
5) Volume...This factor alone justifies the cost in this specific case. We MAY sell 50 sets of headers EVER for this platform (W204 C63), Kooks will sell 100 sets of ZR1 headers this year, SWorks sold over 300 sets of 2010 Camaro headers in the first 6 mos. I can go on but I think you get the idea.
There are many more facets to this break-down than I have posted here, but hopefully most will digest the info above and realize that the person that's truely making out at the end of the day is the consumer--netting 100rwhp/60rwtq SAE from headers and a tune on an N/A platform is pretty insane. I will flat out state publicly that my cost to make these headers (in-house) is over $2700 per set. Now factor in that most sets are sold through dealers/distributors and that we have to allow them to make a profit as well. So straight up from the horses mouth we make less than $1000 per set of headers sold, less than a 25% profit margin on something we designed and continue to create. I'm sure MBAs all over are biting their tongues but the fact remains we do things the way we do them because we know they work, we're never going to profit by selling American jobs, and the market we cater to is highly specific.
The bottom line is that we will never compromise performance for cost savings, even if it means losing sales to competing entities--we cater to racers and serious performance enthusiasts, those that can discern the difference between actual race hardware and other "also ran" offerings.
BTW, Burns Stainless does not build headers, they fabricate and design components that the end user uses to build their own headers. However if you were to purchase the tubing, collectors, flanges, from them I can guarantee you that even when using a "decent" fabricator to put them together, you will be over $7k a set.
Horsepower: 620-685
Torque: 550-565
Block: LS7 with ARP studs
Heads: LS7 with ARP studs
Crank: Callies forged steel
Connecting rods: LS7 powdered-medal Titanium, rebushed (11:1 or 12:1), Callies H beam steel or optional Carrillo A-beam (13:1 or 14:1)
Pistons: Katech forged aluminum with DLC coated pins
Camshaft: World Challenge or GM Stage 3
Oiling system: Dailey 4 stage dry sump system
Throttle body: 90mm electronic or cable
Intake manifold: LS7
TOTAL = $9,400
I noticed MHP camshafts alone are $6000!!! So what makes MHP cams so special compared to The ones KATECH uses?? im sure they will both hold up just fine considering the KATECH z06 is putting down more power then the c63.
---THE POINT IM TRYING TO MAKE AGAIN IS...THE COMPANIES THAT MAKE PRODUCTS FOR THE C63 LIKE MHP, RENNTECH, ETC ARE OVERCHARGING BY AN OBSCENE AMOUNT. AGAIN, THESE COMPANIES MAKE GOOD PRODUCTS, BUT THEY ARE JUST TO OVERPRICED---
Last edited by _AMG_; 06-09-2010 at 02:19 PM.
06-09-2010, 02:34 PM
#88
MBWorld Fanatic!
I'll close with this final comment. The 63 platform is in its last few years of production so the aftermarket demand will diminish due to the limited number produced and the even further limited number of guys that will be modding them due to the cost. Keep waiting for the cheaper headers and you may not end up with a set at all. I'm glad I bought mine and enjoying them every day if desired.
Then how do you explain parts for the MKIV Twin Trubo Supra?? they still make parts for the Supra and it hasn't been in production in the U.S for over 12 years!!!
06-09-2010, 02:36 PM
#89
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2014 Audi RS7
If you could drive one with L/T headers and tune this entire thread would disappear. Its incredible!!
06-09-2010, 02:57 PM
#90
MBWorld Fanatic!
Is that why your sitting infront of your computer and waiting right now? or are you using a computer and racing as we speak?
Youll keep racing and winning??
Do me a favor, dont go around saying that to a Z06/ZR1 owner.
Yes, im sure it is incredible with LTH. I can go purchase MHP or RENNtech headers right this second, but i choose not too. because its overpriced.
This subject is being beat to s***t, So i suggest we leave it at that.
06-09-2010, 05:21 PM
#91
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'10 F150 FX4 SCrew. '14 S212S
I'll close with this final comment. The 63 platform is in its last few years of production so the aftermarket demand will diminish due to the limited number produced and the even further limited number of guys that will be modding them due to the cost. Keep waiting for the cheaper headers and you may not end up with a set at all. I'm glad I bought mine and enjoying them every day if desired.
A 25 year old will buy a $20-$25K C63 that is 5 years old and start modding right away.
06-09-2010, 05:26 PM
#92
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2014 Audi RS7
Top Gun Run - March 14th 2010
2009 ZR1 - 178.77 best run
2009 ZR1 - 179.00 best run
2009 C63 - 180.69 best run
This run is with tune, L/T, no cats, ported heads, stock cams. Wait until we get cams.
There was a couple highly modified Z06's that ran over 180.
Click on race results. http://www.topgunrun.com/
06-09-2010, 05:33 PM
#93
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I would normally agree with you 100% but most 25 year olds can't afford to damage or potentially blow up a $35,000 engine replacement. I do not believe you can get heads or other motor parts for these cars from the dealership. MB AMG is very tight with parts for these cars. Not sure why but they are. Call and try to buy a set of heads and they will tell you no. Parts for these cars are incredibly expensive and WAY too expensive for the younger crowd I would think.
06-09-2010, 07:36 PM
#94
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C63 AMG
Keep posting and waiting huh??
Is that why your sitting infront of your computer and waiting right now? or are you using a computer and racing as we speak?
Youll keep racing and winning??
Do me a favor, dont go around saying that to a Z06/ZR1 owner.
Yes, im sure it is incredible with LTH. I can go purchase MHP or RENNtech headers right this second, but i choose not too. because its overpriced.
This subject is being beat to s***t, So i suggest we leave it at that.
Is that why your sitting infront of your computer and waiting right now? or are you using a computer and racing as we speak?
Youll keep racing and winning??
Do me a favor, dont go around saying that to a Z06/ZR1 owner.
Yes, im sure it is incredible with LTH. I can go purchase MHP or RENNtech headers right this second, but i choose not too. because its overpriced.
This subject is being beat to s***t, So i suggest we leave it at that.
Dads C63 can't face the fact that he paid an exorbitant amount for products that could be had for cheaper with equal or better quality, and now he resorts to justifying his purchases. I don't necessarily blame him though..
06-09-2010, 07:45 PM
#95
MBWorld Fanatic!
I would normally agree with you 100% but most 25 year olds can't afford to damage or potentially blow up a $35,000 engine replacement. I do not believe you can get heads or other motor parts for these cars from the dealership. MB AMG is very tight with parts for these cars. Not sure why but they are. Call and try to buy a set of heads and they will tell you no. Parts for these cars are incredibly expensive and WAY too expensive for the younger crowd I would think.
Last edited by _AMG_; 06-09-2010 at 08:07 PM.
06-09-2010, 07:48 PM
#96
MBWorld Fanatic!
Last edited by _AMG_; 06-09-2010 at 08:03 PM.
06-09-2010, 08:01 PM
#97
MBWorld Fanatic!
FYI:
Top Gun Run - March 14th 2010
2009 ZR1 - 178.77 best run
2009 ZR1 - 179.00 best run
2009 C63 - 180.69 best run
This run is with tune, L/T, no cats, ported heads, stock cams. Wait until we get cams.
There was a couple highly modified Z06's that ran over 180. Click on race results.
http://www.topgunrun.com/
Top Gun Run - March 14th 2010
2009 ZR1 - 178.77 best run
2009 ZR1 - 179.00 best run
2009 C63 - 180.69 best run
This run is with tune, L/T, no cats, ported heads, stock cams. Wait until we get cams.
There was a couple highly modified Z06's that ran over 180.
Click on race results. http://www.topgunrun.com/
Ever heard of the Nürburgring????
Take your c63 to a real race track like the Nurburgring, (which the ZR1 completley dominates) Not 1/4 mile. See how your c63 does against a ZR1 then. Ill tell you exactly what youll see, a happy zr1 owner and a c63 owner going home with its tail between its legs.
Last edited by _AMG_; 06-09-2010 at 08:15 PM.
....whatever you do tho, just don't buy GTPro headers 
06-09-2010, 11:16 PM
#99
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2013 Chevy 427 Torch Red
Super Pro Long Tube Headers
$1,495.00
NEW!
We are proud to introduce our 1 7/8" long tube headers! These are clearly the most powerful headers available for your Corvette! To get there we had to come up with a new full race merge collector that we could incorporate in a mass production header.
"Taken from LG Motorsports website"
30 or 40 C63 owners does not fit the "mass production" designation. If LG motorsports, Kooks or Hooker thought they could make money making headers for this car they would be there already.
The SuperSprint headers and mid pipe for an ML63 runs $5500 and their Z06 headers are $2900. Same company, same material just different production costs.
Nothing will change as the cars get older and depreciate within reach of a new class of buyers. E55's are there now and you don't see America's youth lining up to get one. They cost big dollars to mod (like a C63) and if something vital breaks it is BIG MONEY to repair.
I don't spend money without due consideration and it would have been nice to spend less than I did. BUT that option is not available at the moment and IMO will not ever be for this car. I would like to get a set of track wheels with proper load ratings, weighing less than 20 lbs each for about $300 a wheel. I would like a set of KW clubsport
coilovers for about $1500. Oh and a set of the EvoSport rotors for about a grand maybe with some Red Stuff pads thrown in as a bonus. Probably not gonna happen and I will have to ante up some serious cash to get what I want. But theres nothing wrong with wishful thinking as long as you don't let the day dreams interfere with your reality.
$1,495.00
NEW!
We are proud to introduce our 1 7/8" long tube headers! These are clearly the most powerful headers available for your Corvette! To get there we had to come up with a new full race merge collector that we could incorporate in a mass production header.
"Taken from LG Motorsports website"
30 or 40 C63 owners does not fit the "mass production" designation. If LG motorsports, Kooks or Hooker thought they could make money making headers for this car they would be there already.
The SuperSprint headers and mid pipe for an ML63 runs $5500 and their Z06 headers are $2900. Same company, same material just different production costs.
Nothing will change as the cars get older and depreciate within reach of a new class of buyers. E55's are there now and you don't see America's youth lining up to get one. They cost big dollars to mod (like a C63) and if something vital breaks it is BIG MONEY to repair.
I don't spend money without due consideration and it would have been nice to spend less than I did. BUT that option is not available at the moment and IMO will not ever be for this car. I would like to get a set of track wheels with proper load ratings, weighing less than 20 lbs each for about $300 a wheel. I would like a set of KW clubsport
coilovers for about $1500. Oh and a set of the EvoSport rotors for about a grand maybe with some Red Stuff pads thrown in as a bonus. Probably not gonna happen and I will have to ante up some serious cash to get what I want. But theres nothing wrong with wishful thinking as long as you don't let the day dreams interfere with your reality.
06-10-2010, 01:45 AM
#100
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Like a lot of us on the forum, we have seen alot of headers in our day. I remember my rusted up mild steel headers for my first car, 82 Camaro. I thought they were awesome, but back then I was just entering automotive classes at 16.
Needless to say the automotive fans around the world will always love headers. Cheap ones, Ok ones, to high end ones. I started out Modding my C55 much like many people here are doing with their C63. Only knowing the existence of the big 4 (as I like to call them) RENNtech, Kleemann, Brabus, Lorinser. I joined MBWorld to see what other guys were doing. Thats when I learned of other shops, Like EVOsport, LET ( the Erik eara), VRP, AMS and what not. Regardless how anyone feels about any of these shops... When I was new, I was impressionable... Kind of taking other guys words as gold.
Then I contacted my old friend Rich at Dyno-Comp. I had not talked to him in a while, but after seeing a video on the local Mercedes dealers site of Rich's shop, being refured by a MB dealer. I was like "God I got to stop in and say hello"
Long story short, We became the best of friends and he helped me take my C55 to the max. During the building of my C55. We needed something more, Something that was not offered. Rich and I had a old friend who built headers for IRL race cars, and was the lead Fabricator at Billy Boat. I found out he was on his own. So Richard and I sat down with him, and brought him on board to make the first ever C55 long tube header available.
The development cost alone on the C55 turned out to be upwards of 14K, Just for one model car. About $3800 for the headers and $10K for the jigs.... In the end the product was awesome, but that means crap if I got about $$$ wrapped up in a set of headers. In fact it feels like a blunder
Blunder, because I've only sold 1 set of C55 headers ever! Knowing how soft the C55 market was, I then tossed out another $10K to make E55 header jigs. With a mild tweak of the E55's design I got them to fit both the E55 and CLS55. Shelling out another $1500 to alter the design slightly.
Sales started slowly trickling in for a few forum guys and local customers. However still basically upside down from bother header projects. I took a gamble on making C63 headers. I talked a local customer in to letting me use his car, in return for basically free C63 headers. With the goal in mind to be competitive in the C63 header market. With another 10K invested in jigs.
Then RARfinancial (Rick) Hits me up. Asking If I can make him a new set of long tubes for his CLS63. So now it would be dumb to just make the headers for only Rick, When Rick was dead set on having the headers jigged, just so other CLS63 guys could play with him. This time I got a deal and had the jigs made for $5k. Repeat customer thing
The My SL55 comes along, so I got to have a set of long tubes for that. We have them made and the jigs cost me another $5k.
With that said... I know offer long tube headers for these models: C55, C63, CLS55, CLS63, E55, E63, SL55, E500, SL500, CLS500, and others on there way.
I've got over $50k invested just in headers and jigs. I dont feel bad about it at all, I could and would have lost it in the stock market. If I didnt make headers. However investing in Wall St. Is not my idea of fun. I do this because it is fun. I like to make cars I care about go faster. In the end, you hope after making a big investment, that there is some reward at the end.
Smaller shops that sponsor this site, basically work around the clock making sure things are in order. In fact to even make this header game remotely possible, I still work a day job, as The CFO of a family run ESD/Anti-Static/Clean Room business. I'm in a great position in life that I can take a few hours, install a set of headers then head back to work with some dirt still under my finger nails.
The gaol is... Yes, to make some money. But the real goal in this monster of a project is, just to try and break even. If I can do that?? It works out as a win win for a lot of people. That would otherwise not have an option like this to choose from.
If I new I would sell 200 sets of headers per model, The price would be much lower. Until then, pricing is this... Risk+time+money+demand=????
The truth is I want to get you guys a good deal on headers. Something that wows you when you first open the box, all the way past the last gear in your car.
Needless to say the automotive fans around the world will always love headers. Cheap ones, Ok ones, to high end ones. I started out Modding my C55 much like many people here are doing with their C63. Only knowing the existence of the big 4 (as I like to call them) RENNtech, Kleemann, Brabus, Lorinser. I joined MBWorld to see what other guys were doing. Thats when I learned of other shops, Like EVOsport, LET ( the Erik eara), VRP, AMS and what not. Regardless how anyone feels about any of these shops... When I was new, I was impressionable... Kind of taking other guys words as gold.
Then I contacted my old friend Rich at Dyno-Comp. I had not talked to him in a while, but after seeing a video on the local Mercedes dealers site of Rich's shop, being refured by a MB dealer. I was like "God I got to stop in and say hello"
Long story short, We became the best of friends and he helped me take my C55 to the max. During the building of my C55. We needed something more, Something that was not offered. Rich and I had a old friend who built headers for IRL race cars, and was the lead Fabricator at Billy Boat. I found out he was on his own. So Richard and I sat down with him, and brought him on board to make the first ever C55 long tube header available.
The development cost alone on the C55 turned out to be upwards of 14K, Just for one model car. About $3800 for the headers and $10K for the jigs.... In the end the product was awesome, but that means crap if I got about $$$ wrapped up in a set of headers. In fact it feels like a blunder
Blunder, because I've only sold 1 set of C55 headers ever! Knowing how soft the C55 market was, I then tossed out another $10K to make E55 header jigs. With a mild tweak of the E55's design I got them to fit both the E55 and CLS55. Shelling out another $1500 to alter the design slightly.
Sales started slowly trickling in for a few forum guys and local customers. However still basically upside down from bother header projects. I took a gamble on making C63 headers. I talked a local customer in to letting me use his car, in return for basically free C63 headers. With the goal in mind to be competitive in the C63 header market. With another 10K invested in jigs.
Then RARfinancial (Rick) Hits me up. Asking If I can make him a new set of long tubes for his CLS63. So now it would be dumb to just make the headers for only Rick, When Rick was dead set on having the headers jigged, just so other CLS63 guys could play with him. This time I got a deal and had the jigs made for $5k. Repeat customer thing
The My SL55 comes along, so I got to have a set of long tubes for that. We have them made and the jigs cost me another $5k.
With that said... I know offer long tube headers for these models: C55, C63, CLS55, CLS63, E55, E63, SL55, E500, SL500, CLS500, and others on there way.
I've got over $50k invested just in headers and jigs. I dont feel bad about it at all, I could and would have lost it in the stock market. If I didnt make headers. However investing in Wall St. Is not my idea of fun. I do this because it is fun. I like to make cars I care about go faster. In the end, you hope after making a big investment, that there is some reward at the end.
Smaller shops that sponsor this site, basically work around the clock making sure things are in order. In fact to even make this header game remotely possible, I still work a day job, as The CFO of a family run ESD/Anti-Static/Clean Room business. I'm in a great position in life that I can take a few hours, install a set of headers then head back to work with some dirt still under my finger nails.
The gaol is... Yes, to make some money. But the real goal in this monster of a project is, just to try and break even. If I can do that?? It works out as a win win for a lot of people. That would otherwise not have an option like this to choose from.
If I new I would sell 200 sets of headers per model, The price would be much lower. Until then, pricing is this... Risk+time+money+demand=????
The truth is I want to get you guys a good deal on headers. Something that wows you when you first open the box, all the way past the last gear in your car.
Last edited by MBH motorsports; 06-10-2010 at 01:47 AM.
