Poor Experience with Brian@GTPro
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: South Florida
Fast Cars!
Thanks Neil, I agree completely. I too am curious to know what Renntech, Kleemann, or even Evosport would do in this situation with a customer who installed their parts at another shop outside of their own. Btw, these long-tubes were in Brian's possession for weeks if not months. He sent pictures to me and showed them in person. I do believe there should be some quality control not only for the flange welds, but the angle of the collector, which is a lot easier to notice once placed on a block.
In addition to why I didn't have GTPro install his own personal designed headers at his shop. Besides the almost ridiculously high installation price (1600 dropped to 1,250 for me) and the almost suspiciously high install time for a company that designed the headers (2 days vs 6-8 hours by ACG or DC performance who never saw the pieces before quoting me), when I went to their shop in late April I met Brian and purchased the headers. He basically told me that GTPro was 'bought up' by another company TRD (sp?) and that they re-hired Brian and some of his coworkers (Erwin and a mechanic, I believe) to continue the european car division. I was a little skeptical that GTPro was bought out. When I also visited in late april, the shop was nothing but drywall and construction equipment, with the back auto shop relatively in tact. I didn't get a good gut feeling to have my car installed there when I saw that there were more construction workers than employees and cars combined. It looked like the shop was coming out nice, but there were a million other tasks going on and wasn't sure that my car would best in the shop this early. I was also considering what Erwin explained to me as loosening engine mounts and moving the motor on their last header installation. Plus, the K2 tune would take 3 days with shipping at GTPro vs. 10mins at ACG. So why not go to a cheaper, faster, more reputable shop in ACG or DC.
All of this contributed to why I initially didn't want GTPro for the installation and I refused to have them do it even for free after. I sort of feel lucky in a way and I believe now that I might of saved myself serious headache in a year's time from a cracked header weld and would be left in a very bad situation.
In addition to why I didn't have GTPro install his own personal designed headers at his shop. Besides the almost ridiculously high installation price (1600 dropped to 1,250 for me) and the almost suspiciously high install time for a company that designed the headers (2 days vs 6-8 hours by ACG or DC performance who never saw the pieces before quoting me), when I went to their shop in late April I met Brian and purchased the headers. He basically told me that GTPro was 'bought up' by another company TRD (sp?) and that they re-hired Brian and some of his coworkers (Erwin and a mechanic, I believe) to continue the european car division. I was a little skeptical that GTPro was bought out. When I also visited in late april, the shop was nothing but drywall and construction equipment, with the back auto shop relatively in tact. I didn't get a good gut feeling to have my car installed there when I saw that there were more construction workers than employees and cars combined. It looked like the shop was coming out nice, but there were a million other tasks going on and wasn't sure that my car would best in the shop this early. I was also considering what Erwin explained to me as loosening engine mounts and moving the motor on their last header installation. Plus, the K2 tune would take 3 days with shipping at GTPro vs. 10mins at ACG. So why not go to a cheaper, faster, more reputable shop in ACG or DC.
All of this contributed to why I initially didn't want GTPro for the installation and I refused to have them do it even for free after. I sort of feel lucky in a way and I believe now that I might of saved myself serious headache in a year's time from a cracked header weld and would be left in a very bad situation.
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Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Philadelphia, PA
2008 A8L, 2002 996TT X50, 2009 X5
Quality control over products for these high-end cars is a MUST if a company plans on having a strong stand in this market. I understand Brian went far and beyond to make things right, which is another very strong and much needed characteristic nowadays, but honestly this situation could've been avoided with a simple validation procedure: someone would go over each header (or part) after it has been created checking thoroughly for flaws/defects before final delivery. Each product carries the company's image and reputation, so it must be well-protected. I for one, as a Mercedes-Benz enthusiast (and as a consumer), am very picky when it comes to products for my car. I cannot accept a product with any flaws especially if it is for something that I love so much as my car. Consequently, I always try to seek companies with the highest reputation and excellent quality parts.
Well said; agree with most of it. The only thing that surprises me a bit is the gushing by many about how stellar the vendor's customer service is in this instance. Other instances may be great, but I just don't see it here.
This was allegedly the second set of headers made, and it's not like the fitment was minimally "tweaked" - it was laughably off, from the poor fabrication. So the fabricator so far has a 50% QC failure rate - wouldn't give me warm fuzzies, to be certain. Obviously zero quality control evaluation was performed by the vendor prior to shipment, as others have mentioned. Which, IMHO, is bad CS, and easily could've been avoided with a minimum of care and attentiveness on the part of the vendor. It's not like dozens of sets of these headers are flying off the shelves, and one bad apple fell through the cracks. This was the first set sold to a customer.
The offer to replace the defective product is standard CS (afterall, the vendor isn't likely offering these at cost, and would like to keep the sale and profit if at all possible). The offer for free install on the replacement headers is also, IMHO, pretty standard after what the OP went through... and reinforces that there's enough profit in the product to still make that a worthwhile avenue for the vendor to offer. And the original install quote was awful - is GTPRO's labor rate $200 per hour?
It honestly stinks a bit of the "bait-and-switch" sales practice of offering a 'great-deal' on a product hardware sale only to make it all back and then some on the install labor. Which, if true, would also be bad/unethical CS.In all fairness, there are two positive CS aspects of note: The 55 bucks paid for the inconvenience of the whole ordeal, and the offer of a free rental car if the OP was willing to go through "Round 2" with GTPRO. Everything else, though, is pretty much status quo. My $0.02.
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Joined: Nov 2006
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From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
In all fairness, there are two positive CS aspects of note: The 55 bucks paid for the inconvenience of the whole ordeal, and the offer of a free rental car if the OP was willing to go through "Round 2" with GTPRO. Everything else, though, is pretty much status quo. My $0.02.
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Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Philadelphia, PA
2008 A8L, 2002 996TT X50, 2009 X5
Although I would like to think that your statement above was indeed the standard, my experiences with many companies have shown me that it is definitely not the case (not even close to the standard nowadays). I can give you many examples of engines blowing up, wheels ordered never received in 6+ months (let alone receiving a replacement) or when received with defects/flaws, only partial refund is given, bad pulleys, bad tunes, etc.... and in each case, the company ends up screwing the customer by issuing partial refund, making them wait forever before issuing a refund, and if replacing parts, they would not install for free. Very few companies will actually have a higher standard nowadays... that's why I hold on very passionately to the ones that do.
And the fast (no hassle) refund is also another plus, as it allows the customer to move on quicker
And the fast (no hassle) refund is also another plus, as it allows the customer to move on quicker
Thread Starter
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Joined: Aug 2008
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From: Los Angeles
2009 C63
I forgot about this thread...I wonder if these are the headers I got.
https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...-fool-you.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...-fool-you.html
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Joined: Aug 2009
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From: Tucson, AZ
C63 AMG
I truley do feel bad, and I been in situations before I was in the business, and no matter what anyone says, unless its their own car, they won't feel the pain you wen't threw. I think in the end, you made a smart move, and also helped a lot of people. I would have also not spent the crazy install price GT was asking for. Milking the clock is not a thing any stand up place should do.
How about this, how about we don't speculate on how long it take to do the install. I am not on your side not Brian GT and I actually agree with you but how do you know how long does it take to install the headers?
The fair way here would be to use the oficcial mercedes benz standarized maintance guideline book(the one that the manufacturer mandates what is the "average" time to install a set of headers).
Brian threw a install figure of $1250. I personally don't know how much the dealer would charge for a header install but I am sure they do have a book that tells you how many hours are "calculated" on doing a header install.
Based on this we should be able to do a more accurate assesment on Brian's Gt install price. my .2c
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Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Vegas and Vancouver, BC
.
How about this, how about we don't speculate on how long it take to do the install. I am not on your side not Brian GT and I actually agree with you but how do you know how long does it take to install the headers?
The fair way here would be to use the oficcial mercedes benz standarized maintance guideline book(the one that the manufacturer mandates what is the "average" time to install a set of headers).
Brian threw a install figure of $1250. I personally don't know how much the dealer would charge for a header install but I am sure they do have a book that tells you how many hours are "calculated" on doing a header install.
Based on this we should be able to do a more accurate assesment on Brian's Gt install price. my .2c
The fair way here would be to use the oficcial mercedes benz standarized maintance guideline book(the one that the manufacturer mandates what is the "average" time to install a set of headers).
Brian threw a install figure of $1250. I personally don't know how much the dealer would charge for a header install but I am sure they do have a book that tells you how many hours are "calculated" on doing a header install.
Based on this we should be able to do a more accurate assesment on Brian's Gt install price. my .2c
Book time to R&I (Remove and Install) the two exhaust manifolds (2.5 per manifold) and the two downpipes including secondary cats is 5.2 hours. That is using OEM parts that are expected to fit. I think up to 6.5-7.0 max to fit aftermarket headers since you may have to "fit" the parts. I agree that the $1250 is on the high side. ACG was able to do it the same day you dropped the vehicle off? I would think you would have to drop it off overnight to cool down and then do the install and that is why you were quoted 2 days.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Aug 2008
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From: Los Angeles
2009 C63
ACG removed the stock system, installed aftermarket GTPro headers, removed those, and fully installed the stock system back on in 7 hours time. This was also a set of headers they've never worked on. Looks like 6-8 hours for a experienced shop is a very fair and comfortable quote. DC performance quoted me the same amount of hours 6-8. Mthis did the install in 1 full 24hr day I believe on jack stands with no prior experience.
Last edited by BerBer63; Jun 4, 2010 at 12:54 AM.
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MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,137
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From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
You're right, now that I think about it, and it portrays a sad state of affairs for the automotive aftermarket. How bad must things be when we praise a vendor for giving a timely refund for a poor quality, defective piece of hardware, that never should've shipped in the first place? "Yeah the install/uninstall hassle and expense sucks, but look at the bright side, you successfully got your money back for the defective parts." Depressing. I guess we're all a bunch of suckers, since we don't collectively demand better of our vendors. /rant
And you're right, unless people start taking a stronger stance as a group, it will remain the same. I have personally seen many respected members fall for this, and I have as well. The ones where I paid cash or with check were lost cases, but the ones where I paid with credit card, I was able to recover fairly easily.The best level of protection is always paying with a credit card. Credit cards offer very strong consumer protection which allows you to at least dispute the charge and receive your money back. It sucks if you're on the receiving end of the credit cards transaction as being a supplier or a company (you should read the contract they make them sign
), but it is a very good thing for buyers.
