PC Valkyrie

Have you ever driven a AMG Speedshift automatic transmission on the track before?

If you are basing your conclusions on the standard 5 speed Touchshift automatic transmission from your S500, then you have no clue about the "full control" that the AMG tuned transmissions (with or without torque converter) can deliver.

All modern AMG Speedshift transmissions since the C55 and newer have a "M" (manual mode). This is not your S500 Touchshift feature. This is a third transmission mode other than the "S" and "C" modes. In this mode, there is full control of the gears........it will not upshift by itself at redline (it will simply bounce off the rev limter), and it will not downshift by itself even if you floor the throttle to the kick-down position. The only time it will dowshift by itself is when it wants to prevent you from stalling the engine when slowing to a crawl. So in other words, you do have FULL CONTROL of the gears, which may be important for people who track their cars so there won't be unexpected downshifts mid-corner when powering out of turns.

Having said that, the AMG Speedshift transmission is not the best in terms of shift speeds (whether it's the torque converter version in the C63, the MCT in the E/SL63, or the dual clutch in the SLS), when compared to the competition (Porsche PDK, VW DSG, or BMW M-DCT).

But still, even the 5 speed AMG Speedshift transmission in my C55 can shift faster than I can in my manual transmission 135i. And yes, my C55 transmission can shift faster than the Touchshift transmission in your S500. And because the AMG tuned transmission has a torque converter lock-up function starting in first gear, there is that "direct" drive feeling you don't have in your S500. I know, because I had the same transmission as you in my previous C240.

I do agree with you that paddle shifting is less involving and possibly less enjoyable than a proper stick shift with a clutch. But I'm pretty sure that a modern performance oriented automatic transmissions (torque converter or not) will yield faster laptimes than a stick shift assuming the same car and your average driver that goes to track days.

220S

If you look at his sig, you'll see he has another car. I pretty much see where he's coming from, though. The automatics are just that, an auto tranny with torque converter. What AMG should do is really differentiate these cars and put in automated manuals. The verdict is still out on the SLS's DCT, but I think if we saw a choice between, say a regular auto box and a true automated manual, then offering only 'auto' trannies would make more sense in the Daimler performance line (aka AMG.)

The problem at the moment is they have taken the old MCT from the SL and stuck it in the W212 E63. And aside from the SLS's DCT, all that's left is the standard 7G Tronic Speedshift auto tranny. MB transmissons are not something to be that proud of, imho. And they will have to deal with the jerkiness issue of both the current MCT and DCT for real world daily driving. Old rich farts who want an AMG to putt-putt around town with won't put up with it.

I do think it will all change soon. But in the meantime, it's sorta meh. After driving a PDK and then going back to the 7G, you realize what a slushy slush box it really is. I think the tranny (and not because it's not a manual) is a big weak spot.

And I tend to agree with him that the slushbox 7G is fine for a big sedan cruise car like a CL and S (and I'd add the E, although he considers it a crap car, I guess.) I don't mind the 7G that much in my E Class since it's simply my daily all around car. I have a MT in my P-car which I enjoy because it's not my daily and I want to specifically row my own just for fun. But if I were to replace it for a new 997.2, I'd personally go with PDK (I'm hooked on it now, it's blazingly fast.)

SMP

Nothing to be proud of??? At least AMG developed a transmission for their own cars. Porsche had to go to AMG and buy transmissions for all their Tiptronic cars, incl. the 996/997TT. Ever saw one on the rack, big old Mercedes Benz star on the transmission. I had one of the first SMG M3's, which was a great transmission in my opinion, but everyone complained how jerky it was. Same with my M6. And since you're so impressed with the new PDK (here I agree with you), but those shift paddles, or lack there off, are counter intuitive and plain awkward to use. I haven't owned a car yet that everything was perfect, and I do buy my cars new and in their heyday.

220S

Relax, nobody's doubting that you buy your cars new and in their heyday. Whatever that's supposed to mean. It's okay, I think you just read something else into my post. You have a fine car, don't worry.

I don't think the current option of transmissions is that fitting for AMGs (aside from the SLS, as I said.) That's what I meant about nothing to be proud of. Probably better to have said, "nothing to really write home about." The 7G is a pretty slow transmission, no two ways about it. Plus, as I said, things will no doubt soon change anyway.

fwiw, I wasn't getting into a value judgment about Porsche versus MB, but simple talking about conventional torque converter autos versus automated manuals. Who cares if Porsche sourced transmissions from Daimler or Getrag or ZF or whatever. The SLS is a Getrag DCT, so is BMW's. The SMG is a Getrag built tranny, too. So what? That's not the point, so don't worry.

btw, the 997.2 has conventional shift paddles available as an option with the three spoke wheel for those who can't quite get the hang of it. So that's done.

x838nwy

The whole tranny thing is a bit silly imo. A few years back, there was a clear divide between auto's and manuals; autos were slushy, dim-witted and slow and manual was the only way to go if you want speed.

These days things have so remarkably improved that the characteristics of an auto box can actually be tuned so that the same box/internals can be used to give totally different responses. However, as an aftermath of the original auto/manual divide, cars with auto boxes remain more comfort orientated (like an S500 4Matic or your standard C-class) so the majority of automatic gearboxes remain on the smooth/slow/wafty side of proceedings.

What doesn't help is the birth of dual clutch gearboxes. They're great and they were invented in such times when shift speed is something us mere customers are concerned about and thus the first ones were marketed with a 'sporty' tone (which basically means buyers are more likely to put up with any jerkiness). For reasons unfathomable, the world wrote off automatics overnight and ignored it's earlier flaws (jerkiness, unreliability, low torque capacity, weight, and in the case of the GT-R failure).

As a testament to automatic gearbox technology (by which I mean the 'old-style' auto) here's an extract from a magazine on the development of the Aston Martin DBS:

Mr.Doody is the Chief Programme Engineer for the DBS.

I've never driven a DBS. But I've driven the Jaguar XFR vs. the non-R XF and the Lexus IS-F & the LS (whence the IS-F's box came) and I can tell you the sportier versions have gearboxes that are hard to fault. I have only tried the Maserati Quattroporte with an automated manual and a Ford focus with a dsg, so I can't really comment on all DCT's and other more sophisticated systems. But from where I stand, there's only a hair between 'normal' autos and the dual clutch boxes. For me, they're even better cos they remain totally jerk free and predictable.

SMP

My next car is probably either a 997.2 TT or a Panamera TT with PDK to replace the M6. After I take delivery, I'll let you know if I get "the hang" shifting those paddles. In case I don't, wouldn't be the first time to say bye bye early and trade it for a TT M5/M6

220S

Don't worry, you'll master it in no time. I thought it was unintuitive at first, too. But only because I was used to something different. If PDK had been the first out there, we'd all think everything else was backwards. After spending time with it, you end up thinking like Porsche must have been thinking, and it all becomes 'normal.'

I have an old dog and I can still teach him new tricks.

SMP

Didn't know you traded your old dog, sorry, I meant C4S for a brand new Porsche with PDK. How do you like it?

VCA_AMG

I wouldn't call this the "worst review ever," but I would characterize it as poor journalism. He writes it as a comparison article, even though it's a single car review. Also knocks the car for options it didn't have on his test sample...? He also openly says that he reads other mag/internet reviews on the car in an attempt to influence his opinion/learn about the car...wrong way to do that too. Pretty sure this guy is a rookie.

His review of the Jaguar on that site sucked too.

Quadcammer

I'll be honest, I like seeing how riled up you guys get when someone doesn't profess their undying love for the C63. If you like the car, then why do you care what some review says?

Well, the 220 forum is quite boring, I must agree. That said, my "mommy" actually bought my 210 from me when I bought the 220, so it seems to be the opposite actually.

Of course its a sluggish boat. Its a luxo barge. Its slow as molasses in winter. Who cares?

And we go right to what I can afford. Lets simply say that if I wanted a C63, I would own one.

Quadcammer

A reasonable, intelligent, and well thought out post. That said, I have driven a speedshift tranny at the track, although it was the 5 speed in an SL55 my father owns. And it still didn't always give me the gear I wanted right away (more so on downshifts). Especially coming into a corner hot and needing to drop a couple gears, its quite annoying.

The MCT tranny is better. That said, the enjoyment is not there for me.

Finally, without a decent amount of quantitative data, I think its hard to say whether a TC auto is faster than a manual.

Quadcammer

good post as well. I don't consider the E class a crap car at all, but I am VERY disappointed in the materials on the 212. The hard plastic is embarrassing, especially on the $97k E63.

Quadcammer

lol, he thinks I'm a broke chump because I didn't buy my 993 new like he did. Clearly the fact that I was 13 when the car was new didn't play into his statements.

bigben320e

Very good post. Why should anyone care...goes back into my question I asked how happy was everyone with their C63.

Another good one, and you are not alone with your disappointment.

Quadcammer

I don't think anybody like to read negative press on a car they just spent $60k on, but it just seems like people get very insecure about it. I don't see why. Its clearly not a car or mercedes for everybody. The review mentioned the prolific power, but complained about the tranny and some interior attributes...gripes seen on this very forum. Whats the big deal?

With respect to SMP, I guess I should have bought a 997TT even though I like the older 993TT better.

clkwork

C63 interior is absolute garbage! Why couldn't it have been more like this beauty - an absolute masterpiece of materials and design!



(just kidding, I like 993s too)

racetested

I personally enjoy Oliver's posts as he articulates his words very well IMO.

I agree that getting so bent out of shape because someone doesn't agree with loving a certain material object is ridiculous.

The "you can't afford it so that's why you're angry" is so juvenile. Oliver's S500 back in 05 bought new still cost as much as a new C63 does now so that jab made no sense.

People need to take the C-class for what it is. I only have the C350 (my first MB) but when I upgrade next year I will be taking the C63 off my list as the car is not nearly as well appointed for luxury overall as I am starting to like my cars to be.

Quadcammer

lol, in the 60s it sure was

Thanks.

The you can't afford it thing is one of the stupidest things I've seen. No one knows another person's financial status. The S500 had a sticker price of $115,000 in 2005. Should I be upset that I got it for less than half that 3 years later?

For me, the C63 falls into a gray area. Its a little brash, loud, and rough for a sport sedan with luxury aspirations, but it isn't quite enough to be a sports car.

I can't think of one car that does everything I'd want aside from maybe a 997TT, and even then, I'd want a rawer car for the weekend. I've literally been spoiled with two cars. Having the soft comfortable quiet car for the week, and the loud raw rough car for the weekend is great.

SebringSilver

Having Oliverk here to yank the chain of C63 owners is a sign that all's right in the world.

tasho3

i guess i put it wrong, my point was, you are not buying the car so why you sweating in here trying to argue with everybody!!!

GBlansten

I think you have me confused with other posters. I don't mind in the least the negative review.

Quadcammer

lol

Because I enjoy the discussion of automobiles.

wasn't really directed towards you. you've always seemed civil and can argue intelligently.

blilley18

Oliverk, I see how you can think that we all love the C63 and hate people who don't like it (like you). The fact is that we are all open to input and if you did your homework, EUGENE-Taiwan, a friendly poster on this forum, DOESN'T HAVE A C63. In fact, he has an M3. He thinks that our input on his car is valuable, even though he is posting on a forum of a car that is the M3's arch enemy. So, before posting, always remember to look at the history of what you are talking about.

HBC350

This car is not for everyone. That's for sure. But, aside from the seat backs being too narrow (I'm only 6'1", 210) I find it perfect for me, especially given the price. Yeah, the interior trim is a bit cheapish, but who really cares? It's also very clean and the controls are large and easy to navigate. I have a 2007 MDX and every time I look at the center dash I get a headache. Still can't find the a/c controls in under 5 seconds.

Show me a car that is the perfect blend of everything and I will buy it. Price, power, appointments, prestige, looks, function. Doesn't exist.

The C63 is a badass machine that delivers a lot of bang for the buck and gets huge cred from most who know anything about cars. Good enough for me. No matter what that a-hole Oliverk says. :-)

Quadcammer

From what I've seen, Eugene posts about his own car and doesn't provide opinions about the C63, positive or otherwise.

The fact that you think cars have "arch enemies" makes me laugh.

Furthermore, I'm simply providing my prospective.

I'd say I know the "history" of this forum far better than you.

I may provide my opinions in an abrasive fashion, but I'm ok with that.

why am I an "a-hole" again?