RStevens63

I understand what you're saying, obviously getting to the track isn't the most important thing for most owners. But with that being said, there isn't any data (none that I can find?) for an OE car at the track. Again that I can find and I've looked.

My point was I just find it odd that by now with as many cars as they've tuned that we haven't seen any yet especially with all the positive comments on the forum. I believe MBForever has posted that there will be some running at his next rental and we have propain testing headers and tuning out at an east coast track. Just nothing yet.

Nothing less, nothing more

Take Care

dodger63

I've been saying for a long time. What we need is some of these dedicated guys to bring there cars to the track.. If it's so that it's not important to them what there car can do at the track then why are they so hung up on dyno #s and talking down other tuners.. I don't think I've ever bad mouthed or even talked about a different company.... Let's get to the track get your own dr's and let's all prove what we have....

propain

All good points. All I can do is imagine at this point what my car will do. Hopefully I can put some numbers up soon. Im thinking on doing an E-town right after Thanksgiving.

For the record I completely respect the MHP tune. Its numbers are amazing on the track. If the numbers on the track match the extra $$$ over the OE tune I would consider switching. No question.

In the end though I just want some good competition. Its good for business and its good for guys like us to sling a little poop now and then.

RStevens63

I know the numbers will be good, now just how good, that's the question

Agreed, competition is good for everyone I'm thankful we can have this debate (talk whatever lol).

Remember to factor the weight gained during Tday into your times LOL.

propain

I always drop about 10 before the holidays just to balance them out. Been running and working out like a freak for the past month!

propain

JON!! This is your calling!! Represent!! Dont come home without at least an 11.5 on DR's!!

RStevens63

Now that's using your head! Smart man.

RStevens63

LOLOLOL!!!! That's putting it out there!

sflgator

Patience...in due time, in due time. In the meantime, what would be fun though is to get a few tuned C63's together for a few hwy runs...say a OE tuned/MBH LT header C63, a MHP tuned/header C63, and a Kleemann K2 tuned/header C63 or RENNtech tuned/header C63.

RStevens63

For sure that would be awesome that and tune only as well, I would almost pay to make that happen. There have to be customers of each brand in the same state, you would think?

Maybe we should start another thread trying to find members that are able and willing to meet at the same track on the same day? Or at least have a playoff system in 2 cities? I like the way you're thinking Mr. non DTC
:P What if all the tuners that wanted to compete chipped in $500 each (or whatever) toward a set of DRs to help make the event happen? I think that would be a fair price for some good old fashioned free marketing.

OP, sorry to hijack your thread!

dodger63

Highway runs are fun!! But we all no they are no proof of anything an m3 could show you what's up at the right speed if he got the jump on you.. O wait did I say m3 I meant isf.. O wait no nevermind I meant gallardo... Haha

sflgator

Not necessarily; hwy runs from a roll are more about power, while running from a light or at the track are more about traction (DRs or no DRs?) and getting a good launch. Even if someone gets a slight jump on me, if I have significantly more power than they do, I'm going to catch up at the very least if not pass.

RStevens63

I'll take any kind of race as long as it's fair. Highway runs as you said tend to take less emphasis off launch and showcase what the cars are capable of by in most instances eliminating traction as an issue depending on roll speed. I know the LT header guys are spinning at 60mph in northern states now.

The more (proof) the better.

MB_Forever

Actually there has been some indirect data floating around.... a bit weak and indirect but still somewhat relevant: there were some Powerchip tuned cars at Famoso last year, which was before Jeremy ever left Powerchip and started tuning for his own company OE Tuning. Those cars were not only at the private event but also in summer of 2009 during public test-n-tune events. None of the street-tired C63s broke 12.1 @ 117 mph and the only one with drag radials and headers hit one 11.9 and then a bunch of 12.0. I'm not sure who was the actual tuners on those cars and it is hard to draw solid conclusion based on their performance, but it is still offers an educated suggestion/guess into this debate.

Some of it actually is a secret. You're right that most tuners modify "mostly" the same parameters. But with cars ECUs (especially nowadays) being as complex as they are and being controlled by so many maps and tables, some tuners may modify a few tables/parameters that others ignore and vise versa. This would have an effect on other tables/values as the ECU reacts differently to different input, and eventually the whole tuning file becomes a little different. The deeper the tuner digs into these files, the more R&D they end-up doing, the more they understand about the firmware, and the more they advance our tunes. So even though the tunes maybe mostly similar, they are definitely NOT identical.... yes they do differ.

Dyno numbers are very unreliable. And the way the car reacts on the dyno is different than what happens on the street, as the ECU is constantly reacting to different parameters, such as intake air temps, engine rpms, car load, air being sucked into the intake, etc.... that are inherently hard to simulate on the dyno. This could consequently create conditions where the car performs good on the dyno and bad on the street. Not to mention that comparing dyno numbers from two dyno machines in the same shop is very unreliable let alone comparing dyno numbers from across the country To give you hard evidence: my car dynoed at 536 rwhp on a Mustang Dyno (100% stock) while the car swore up and down that the dyno was correct. You and I know that is impossible given that I'm only running 12.1 @ 118 mph in the 1/4 mile. I dynoed again at other dyno shops and I was all over the place: 409 rwhp, 445 rwhp, 454 rwhp, 415 rwhp, 419 rwhp, 437 rwhp, etc... Another example is bassn_07's car. On the other extreme is bassn_07's car: he dynoed at a couple of Mustang Dynos and his car came in at 447 rwhp but it runs 10.77 @ 135 mph. It also dynoed at 500 whp, 519 whp, 550 whp, 580 whp, etc.... he tried different dynos from dynojets to dyno dynamics to mustang dynos and so on. In the end, how the car reacts on the street when driven hard is a more reliable measurement. The track just gives you a fancy timing equipment to help you gauge your progress

So far, we've seen time and time again MHP-equipped cars show very similar and very consistent results. These results are all shown on different cars with different drivers at different tracks. This should be held in a different status than having only one car perform good but not too many others.

Not all C63 owners go to the track is a fact that affects all tuners equally. Why is it being held against MHP? In fact, it would actually be more of a handicap for MHP since they're the smaller company and therefore sells a lower number of tunes compared to bigger companies. It is a random selection process and not something that MHP has any control over They can't force their own customers to go to the track let alone try to force their competitor's customers

dodger63

Significantly more power.... Iwould say if I got a jump on you no matter what your dyno sheet says you will never catch me.. And I'm bot saying anything about a tune or a header or anything other then same car within a 50 Hp of each other put on a highway run say 40-?? If I got a .5 second jump on you you will never catch me.. And track can show much more then traction mph = power!!!!!

SonnyakaPig

I know that you are very into empirical data. And that's important.

But I don't see any reason that a DR/OE-tuned C63 shouldn't run high 11's in good weather.

I understand your point that without proven track results my above point is merely speculation. But even though dyno results vary -- drastically, sometimes -- the tunes for C63's (the parts of the re-mapping that are responsible for increasing power) most likely do not vary significantly because the bulk of the data banks in the ECU have to remain the same for an otherwise untouched C63 to run healthy.

We know how much hp/tq stock C63's make. And we know what kind of traps they run. And we also know that weather is a huge determining factor; so much so that even MHP tuned cars (the quickest and fastest cars and also the most sizable segment of the C63 tuned cars that visit the track regularly) recognize the difference in their cars' performance due to weather.

Just the same, OE-tuned cars will also perform differently based on weather.

And speaking of trap speed, even though it is a great indicator of hp, it still varies due to weather.

What I'm trying to get at is that this really isn't a mystery. OE-tuned cars are making good power on the dyno and even though the numbers seem on the high side of the tune-only cars, they are making significantly more power than stock and that should be enough to help propell a C63 town the 1/4 in the 11's, so long as the weather is also good.

_AMG_

Yo, somebody hook me up with popcorn and beer.

SonnyakaPig

In theory you are correct that because MHP is a smaller company and perhaps sell fewer tunes they run the potential of having a smaller track presence from their customers.

But, in practice, they have the biggest track presence. This is because MHP began tearing up the track when they started tuning the C63's. If I'm not mistaken it seems like MHP as a company is very involved in racing, they raced their own cars and they have a solid group of customers who go out there and run the best times.

So, the C63 owners who love to race at the track know which company has proven results. And they continue to purchase their tunes and most importantly go to the track.

MB_Forever

You're missing my point.... whether they sell more or less than another company, it is something that affects all companies equally. It is not their fault that when a customer buys their product, they go to the track to test it out.

All tuning companies run their cars.... it would be a little unfair to say MHP has the best track presence because they tear up the track with their own cars. MKB, for example, ran their cars on a track except they used high-speed runways when they first released their products for the 63 line-up. Then they recently actually used a 1/4 mile track for their 1000 hp SL65 Black Series and announced that they will continue to do so. RENNtech also did the same thing and took their car to the local track. Evosport and Brabus do the same thing as well. It is usually a good practice to test your products on the track. MHP is no different. They have customers who go to the track and those who do not. The difference is that all of MHP customers who go to the tarck seem to generate very close and very consistent results across multiple different cars in multiple different areas while others seem to vary somewhat inconsistently. I'm not knocking any company.... but I am stating that the fact that MHP customers happen to go to the track should not be used against them. They have no control over it. And all other companies have the same chance of being picked by a customer who happen to like going to the track.

propain

Ok, ill just say this one thing and then lets just let the numbers speak.

The reason why MHP is being looked at so much and things are being "Held against" is the fact that MHP charges double what every other tune costs. The numbers will come and if they are close, it will be MHP who will need to explain the extra cost to their customers if indeed 1/2 the price gets the same or close to the same results.

We have not seen any track numbers from OE tunes yet but OE is getting the tunes out there. They will come. Comparing it to powerchip is just speculation. This is by far a different tune. The Dyno numbers show it. Well see if the track does.

All this banter is making me and probably many others really get there now.

Dads C63

Just to clarify, I drive most of the time. In fact I was driving when we ran the 11.24 at PBIR. It does take practice and time behind the wheel but fortunately for the C63 it requires less talent because its so easy to drive.

Others drive my car because its a blast and for me its fun to watch the car go down the track every once and a while. The sound from outside the car is incredible. I love watching the reaction of the crowd everytime the car runs.

Set up some south Florida races and we'll do our best to show up.

propain

Hopefully I can get someone to drive mine so I can get it on video!

sflgator

FYI, gentlemen - Jeremy's OE tune is not the same nor a derivative of the Powerchip tune; the kind of power the OE Tuning ecu flash is making is more than many other tunes as he is able to lean out the AFR if running too rich and do a few other things that some of the others do not.

W203E35

Jeremy doesn't know what he is doing

He only got me +22wHp@5000rpm & +33wtq@3300rpm! while other advertise UP TO 16hp and 15tq

Jeremy is truly a master at what he does

brad @ evosport

To clarify, ALL tuners DON'T do this.

Evosport does not do this. We have all of ONE two customers that routinely do 1/4 mile runs (JRCart and City Performance in Australia).

Different tuners DO have disproportionate amount of customers in different niches. The vast majority of our customers are road racers/trackers or high end street guys.

To say that each company has the same amount of customers in each niche is incorrect and overlooks basic market trends.

Just clarifying.

Thanks
Brad