propain

Get the file put back on. Maybe a pulley. Play with the cats.

Or as MB Forever said.. Just get the long tubes....

I really want to know why you didn't make power though... No explanation yet?

AlbertM

Naah, I spent too much time and money (more then I expected) at this point. I don't want to mess around with it anymore + long tubes are very expensive as well. I think tuners have not worked out all the kinks for the W212 body yet, which seems to be different than W211. I was probably the only "fool" to play with my brand new W212 and experiment the way I did. But on the positive note, I learned a lot about cars, tuning, headers, exhausts etc. Did tons of research myself as well. There is seems to be some structural limitation here, don't know what it is.

The funny thing is none of the pros including people at Kleemann understand why this setup made no power at all. In fact most likely lost a bit.

Also there is so much confusing and conflicting info out there. Sheesh. How does anyone mod anything here??? I talked to 4 different people (pros) and get 4 different answers. How can that be? Nobody can explain how this "machine" works and why it does what it does, just theories and conjectures, which to tell you the truth cost me a nice penny.

So with all that experimentation, I conclude that stock setup is the way to go at this point. Oh well.

themyst

ouch, that must be a huge hit to your wallet, sorry to hear that. Did OE tuning not have a tune file for headers? Seems to be a strong, reliable tune based on the C63's dyno and real-world results.

AlbertM

OEtune has the file for the headers, but I dont think it is the tune. Kleeman header tune did not work, so I doubt OEtune will. There seems to be something fundamentally wrong here, don't know what it is and sure looks like nobody does.

SonnyakaPig

I'm not a tuner, but I would think it would be easier to tune the C63 because you're removing the factory de-tune and then maybe trying to find safe, reliable power beyond that.

But, so long as the C63 tune makes as much power as the other, full power M156-equipped 63's and runs well, the tune was a success.

Isn't it a little more difficult to find extra power in the E63, which is the most powerful 63, besides the SLS.

The E63 has a more efficient OEM catback exhaust system than the C63; namely, because the tubing is 1/4" larger diameter. So, to me, it would seem entirely plausible that E63's do not gain as much power from the better-than-stock flowing Kleeman manifolds.

I have not spent enough time on the E63 forums to know what kind of power E63's can make with a tune, but I was under the impression that an aftermarket tune can net 15-25 rwhp gain? Also, how much of a gain in trap speed can an aftermarket tune by itself net a W212 E63?

518 bhp for W212 63 multiplied by .82 = 424.76 rwhp. Is that a reasonable figure for a stock W212 E63? Maybe 10-15 rwhp less depending on the dyno?

The question is whether E63's will make the same gains as a C63 when Kleeman manifolds and an appropriate tune and filters, perhaps are added?

AlbertM

Well, I am nowhere near 424, I am bearly breaking 400 rwhp. Something is wrong. Funny thing, is that even before the headers just OETune I dynoed 395 RWHP same shop, same dyno. Today identical numbers with KLeeman ECU+Headers.

SonnyakaPig

Albert, 424 rwhp was just a general figure. Like 518 bhp is what is SAE certified for your car, but here's the thing: E63's will make more power on 93 octane then they will on 91 octane. And honestly, I don't even know, perhaps they can handle higher than 93 octane because the sticker on the gas tank door says "minimum 93."

So, an E63 in CA, using 91 octane should make less power than an E63 in NY, using 93 octane.

Higher octane enables the car to safely advance more timing. Increased hp can be generated from increasing your car's timing. There's a lot more to tuning than that, obviously.

But, if you're making 400 rwhp on a dyno or 395, that's your baseline at that dyno. It doesn't mean your car makes 400 rwhp. You may never know what your car makes, hpwise. But, at that dyno, you make 400 rwhp. Good.

Did the tune net you any hp beyond the 400 rwhp baseline? Forget the headers right now, just the tune?

Edit: Just saw that tune made 400 rwhp. Edit # 2: I see you're in LI, so I assume you use 93 octane. yes?

SonnyakaPig

I'm confused. On the first page of this thread, you said your baseline was 424 rwhp. Now you say it's 400 rwhp.

Maybe this line of questioning can zero in on some things:

1) Where did you first dyno your car? and
- How much did it make? 405 rwhp
- What were the mods? OE tune

2) Did you dyno your car at another location(s)? Yes

- If so, where, and how much did it make? 424 rwhp
- What were the mods?

Edit: I'm just trying to fill in the dots, because after reading through this thread again, there is so much disorganization it's hard to follow.

AlbertM

OK, lets back trace a little. I did 4 dyno in total:

1) Dyno # 1: OEtune+K&N+airbox mod @ NRG Racing, Dynojet
Best Run 4th gear pulls: 405hp uncorrected, 395 SAE corrected.

2) Dyno #2: OEtune+K&N+airbox mod @ Great Neck, dynojet
Best Run 4th gear pulls: 437 uncorrected, 424 SAE

Did the Kleeman Headers:

3) Dyno #2: Kleeman Headers+OEtune+K&N+airbox mod @ Great Neck, dynojet
Best Run 4th gear pulls: 422 uncorrected, 409 SAE -- this run raised a red flag (power loss as compared to the Dyno #2).

4) Dyno #4: Kleeman Headers+KleemanECU+K&N+stockairbox @ NRG, dynojet
Best Run 4th and 5th gear pulls: 415 uncorrected, 395 SAE @4th gear, 410 uncorrected 390SAE @5th gear

I always use 93 octane gas.

SonnyakaPig

Thanks for clarifying, Albert. There are many people thinking about this, so I'm sure you'll get everything worked out to your liking.

Okay, IMO, this dyno should only be looked at for the OEtune. The airbox mod and K&N filters don't mean squat on the dyno. On the street/track, sure, but some would disagree, but it's all good, because in this example we're talking dyno.

Same here, this is an OEtune run.

So far, your car makes 395 rwhp on one dyno and 424 on another. (only look at corrected SAE). No biggy, this is normal.

Here, I don't see what the surprise is, you changed your exhaust manifolds but didn't adjust the tune accordingly. The power loss is not that great. I would be more concerned with the way your power lines (hp and tq) looked during this run, and the AFR.

I suppose you can gain power with this combination but it would only be due to luck because at this stage the tune was not mapped for these aftermarket manifolds

Here, I still am not sure whether the Kleeman tune was adjusted for the headers. If so, then the headers provided you no gain. Again, not surprising to me because I wouldn't expect these manifolds to provide an E63 with the same gains that they provided a C63 that comes from the factory with a more restrictive exhaust system.

Then again, I'm not saying other people that have gained power on the E63 with these manifolds are fibbing (I'm sure they did gain power), but I thought it was accepted that E63's don't make power as easy as say, a C63?

AlbertM

ECU was sent to Kleemann for reflash specifically for Kleeman headers. So the answer is yes, ECU was tuned for Kleemann headers for the Dyno #4.

SonnyakaPig

Have you taken it back to the dyno where you made 424 rwhp with the K2 tune (for the new manifolds)?

AlbertM

Not yet, but based on run #4 it should not be far off from the 424, which means that Kleemann headers+ECUtune (basically K2) yielded no additional power.

Edit: I assume this based on Dyno #1 and Dyno #2 runs, the 2 dynos seems to be around 19-20hp apart.

SonnyakaPig

If you like the sound of the manifolds on your car, you could get with one of your tuners, do some data logging, find out exactly what your car is doing.

You need to know things like whether your car is detonating (even the slightest bit) and throwing knock retard, and pulling any timing. Also, what your AFR's are doing. Fuel trims can be seen through data logging. I imagine you can see whether the fuel delivery is on point.

You can get a real good picture of what's going on in your car.

I'm sure Kleeman or OE tuning can figure this out. They are both at the top of their craft.

Edit: I wasn't trying to act like you're on your own with that last statement. It's just that if you really are curious about this and you like the way the manifolds sound on your car, and your car is rather unique with them installed, there is more that can be learned about this issue. Ultimately, you may prefer to return to stock or stock with a tune.

I can tell you many people have gone through this with the modification game. I once gained 60 rwhp with a centrifugal blower installed on a 6.2L V8, supposedly running 7.5 psi. Turns out the tune was the problem. (Blower manufacturer's own tune) Needless to say, I swiftly removed that blower and found one that actually delivered power with a proper tune.

AlbertM

Well that was the original theory: detonation and pulling back timing. But we scanned AFR after the Kleeman tune and it was running fairly rich low 12s at WOT. Not sure why header install would suddenly cause detonation. And even with OEtune+Kleeman headers, AFRs at WOT were around 13-13.1, leaner then Kleeman ECU. I guess logging some data would be a good idea before making any decision one way or the other.

themyst

I am not sure how many degrees of timing the 63 DME can retard or advance, but if it is anything close to the 135/335 DME (which can advance or retard ignition upwards of 15 degrees) there is some extra power to be made on race gas.

BMW decided they should target a power level (306bhp), not a boost level with our car (which allows for a virtually idiot-proof DME) which means in cold temps, you see stock boost drop as low as 5psi, and as high as 10 depending on conditions.

MB_Forever

Albert, here is my analysis of the situation (although I do not know all the details yet):

- The headers were designed by Kleemann to make power on the W211. I'm sure Kleemann has done enough research, development, and testing before pushing out their products, and we've seen these headers show good gains on at least two different W211 E63s on this forum, so we know they do work as advertised (at least) on the W211 platform.

- If the headers bolted right into the W212 with no problems, given it is the same engine as in the W211 E63, I would've thought that the headers would make similar power or at least keep you at the same level you were before the headers (most definitely NOT lose ANY power).

- However, since the headers actually caused a loss of power (even with a tune), then they most likely did not bolt right in. I have a feeling that there were a bit more "modifications" done to the headers than a 2mm dimple, which I'm inclined to believe are causing the power loss. With these engines, even the slightest variation in back pressure (or any of the other variables it controls) will cause the ECU to react differently - possibly pulling timing.

Is there any chance you can take pictures of the headers and exactly the modifications done to them?

By the way, if you don't want to go to long-tube headers, RENNtech has a package that is designed and tested for the W212 to give you about 40 to 45 whp: shorty headers + carbon fiber airbox + ECU tune + sound pipe. They bolt right into the W212 with NO MODIFICATIONS necessary and I've seen a couple of dynos for them already showing incredibly consistent gains. Also, that way, you'll still be smog legal

http://www.teamspeed.com/forums/amg/...-e63-w212.html

If you really want good gains though, long-tube headers are the way to go

GHAZAN

I think Albert is over it at this point and will wait fro someone else to have proven gains and far from dropping 10k on that w212 package, IMO of course

SonnyakaPig

What's max boost on the N54 in stock form?

ZephyrAMG

a "get to the point" kind of guy. get this man a beer. However attachment of headers does sound most plausable for loss of power if everything else is in line and conditions are the same. You would definitely see a gain as it is the same engine...

themyst

I don't understand your question. In stock form, as stated previously, it targets a power output, not a boost level... so it could be anywhere from 5psi to 10psi.

The stock MAP sensor is good for about 22psi, but no one that I know of has pushed that much boost on the stock turbos. My tune limits peak boost at 20psi which I have yet to try. I did try 18.5psi with 93 octane + meth, which netted 424whp in 91 degree temps.

I imagine if I took that same setup to the same dyno in near-freezing temps, I would be in the 440-450whp range.

AlbertM

Very possible that other mods were, done. Unfortunately I don't have the pics. I would have to take the header off to see if other mods/adjustments were made, which wont be feasible at this point.
I am thinking about going back to stock or at least going back with stock manifolds and take it from there. So when and if I do that I shall know what other adjustments if any were made and most definitely will post again on this topic.

I want to see some more real world data on W212 before I make any changes to the car.
There has to be a simple and reasonable explanation to this problem. And most obvious is probably the answer.

propain

Whats the story Albert. Any updates on your ride? think it will be resolved by Sunday?

AlbertM

Yes, stay tuned for more. I am basically back to stock manifolds. More details will follow.

Edit: BTW, Me and Jon had a run with CTS-V today morning. Results??? Surprising .. I let Jon tell the story.

propain

Id like to hear that story. I guess it ended in a win. No surprise to me if the CTSV was stock.


Lets go Jon.... where is the Captree update???