dodger63

Yes you would figure it would fly. Someone needs to step up. Drop these kleeman tubes and get a set of l/ts made!!!

propain

I thought they "Bolted right in"

Dodger, the power loss could have been from the dent and ovaling the holes on the manifold to push it over to clear the steering column bolt. Did it port match perfectly after that mod? Was there any carbon buildup on the Kleemans after removal?

The true sign will be on the dyno after it was cleaned up by TTM. If he shows power gains then the install was the culprit. If he shows no gains and it wasnt the install than the Kleemans suck.

I agree being a guinea pig sucks, but you cant let the guy out of the shop and say "All done" if you suspect there will be problems.

I'm only asking you because you seem to be the voice of RPM right now on this. Pictures really are needed.

Glad you got your car back Albert. I heard you smoked a CTSV over the weekend!

AlbertM

Guys, I think you are missing an important point here. It is not just about power loss, it is the fact that K2 for W211 did not perform on W212 chassis. There actually no need to run yet another dyno, I have done enough dynos to back that up. The install was not clean, header dented, cats were shot, welded bad and rattling inside. It could have been a combination of all the factors, or maybe it is as simple as bad primary cats. Who knows.

It was just a bad experiment. Of course I can go with LT, but I don't really want to drop that kind of $$ into this car and open yet another can of worms. That is why I decided to go with a more conservative approach.

The point is that the installation should have been halted, that is all. There is no point in blaming at this point. What is done is done.

I think we can close this chapter. I am back to my stock manifolds and enjoying my car.


Edit: BTW, Mike I never disputed your suggestions and if I did it again I would most likely go with LT headers. I just though that LTs are little too much for an E63 -- hence the choice.
Hopefully there is something to learn from this experience especially for the W212 E63 audience.

DAGREEKNYC

I know there is some clearance issues with the LOng tubes on the 211 e63's . I had tried to have KOOKS build me a set but they delayed me back and forth for about a year .

Maybe its time to try American race header ????? Is any shop willing to step up to build a set for free if they get a test MULE ??????

DAGREEKNYC

My mistake that i did not dyno as ever bolt on went on the car. Once all parts were on then the car was Dyno'ed . total RWHP gain was 30 with the bolt ons and 26hp more with the Kleemann tune .

dodger63

I no arh might? Mbh will build anything. And Mhp would possible dive in.. I doubt free is feasible.. But the gains prob wouldn't be negligible like the kleemans.. To spend $4,000 to pick up 20hpdoesnt sound that appetizing

Staff@RPM

I just want it to be clear about what was done and why it was done. The headers were put on originally with no modification to the downpipe at all. The holes were opened on the header flange to clear some manifold studs. Now, I just want you to realize that only some of the holes were opened, not all the holes on the flange which was weird but that's how it was. It was not to shift the header in any way to clear anything like is being explained here to Albert and everyone else. If it was done in order to do that then all the holes would have had to have been modified. It was done to clear a few studs, there was no resulting leak from the flange due to any of this so I don't think that anyone can point to that as a result of anything. Kleemann was told about it and that was it.

The second point that I want to make is that there were no modifications done to the downpipes when we installed them. We installed everything, left them as they were delivered to us, checked for leaks and test drove the car. Albert came and picked up his car. He later returned and complained about a rubbing noise that it was making under certain circumstances. When you accelerated hard and had the wheel turned to the left it rubbed against the steering column. We dented the header slightly to make some clearance and took it for a test drive. Albert came back again later and told us it was better but still doing it. Basically if you were floored and turning left at full lock you can recreate the noise. I almost had to do a skidpad test to recreate it. We had to make more room. The headers were not modified to fall into place. I will not even suggest on here what other ways I was told to make the clearance happen, that's not for the forum. As for not finding that in our test drive, we don't race our customers cars. We took the car out, go over some bumps, turn around and come back. It's not my place to test how fast the car is, how well it handles, etc. If it's a test where I have to drive it hard we put it in 3rd or 4th gear on a nice safe road and put a heavy uphill load on it. We don't take high speed turns in someone elses car.

As for the cats rattling around and broken, I am really sorry to hear that in such a short time. I know when I had the car on the lift last Tuesday one of the things that I did was bang the cats to see if they were making any noise, I banged them pretty hard and they were quiet. I'm very surprised to hear that they are broken apart a couple of days after that. When did you take them out of the car?

Last but not least was the connection to the stock pipe. The only reason that I left the angle on the downpipe at the bottom was to insert the Kleemann downpipe into the larger width section of the removed cat. The only reason that I did it that way is because Albert wanted all his stock stuff back to go back to stock when he got rid of the car and this would make that a lot easier. As for my welding, I can't say that I am the greatest welder out there. It was mig welded, not tig welded.

I am sure that Albert will confirm that these are the circumstances in which the modification was made because everyone seems to think things are a lot different. If I could not drop the header in the car because it was hitting on something I would not have continued with the install, it would have been a very easy time to put the car back to stock.

dodger63

I'm not getting at you just giving my opinion.

In my opinion kleemen manifolds are not going to give u a noticible difference. Just my opinion.. If I was spending the money to upgrade my 100k car id do allot of research and would definatly have found away to do l/ts.. Drop off at AMH a well none shop near me and let then have a wack.. It prob cost 4,000 or more but....

Staff@RPM

[QUOTE=propain;4395821]I thought they "Bolted right in"

Dodger, the power loss could have been from the dent and ovaling the holes on the manifold to push it over to clear the steering column bolt. Did it port match perfectly after that mod? Was there any carbon buildup on the Kleemans after removal?

The true sign will be on the dyno after it was cleaned up by TTM. If he shows power gains then the install was the culprit. If he shows no gains and it wasnt the install than the Kleemans suck.

I agree being a guinea pig sucks, but you cant let the guy out of the shop and say "All done" if you suspect there will be problems.

I'm only asking you because you seem to be the voice of RPM right now on this.
[
! /QUOTE]

Just to explain that Mike is his own voice. I don't ask anyone to speak on my behalf to anyone on the forums, ever. I don't call my customers and ask them to post there experiences with me, it is entirely up to them. I can speak on my own behalf, don't worry. Mile will say what he feels whether it is positive or negative and he will let me know when he feels I screw up, he's good like that.

One thing you will never hear from me is bad mouthing any other shop on here or to a customer. It is just not the right way to do business. Believe me when I hear about other people all the time but no customer will ever say that anything negative ever came out of my mouth. That's just not the way me or any of the other guys that work here do things. We had one guy that continued to bad mouth everyone else and he is no longer employed here because of it.

I have no negativity towards anyone involved with this, I will be happy when the initial criticism about the power loss is resolved. Now that the car has the factory manifolds and factory cats back on it I think one more time on the dyno will be good. I will make sure that the dyno does not cost anything, I think it is the right think to do for eveeyone involved.

DAGREEKNYC

i meant "MY MISTAKE " as in i shouldve tested every part to know what i am getting .

Kleemann was the only game in town at the time .

dodger63

Yes I no.. Really still are! But someone needs to dive in! Or it'll be the only thing available for a long time?

AlbertM

Craig, I am not trying to be negative or attack anyone, and it is true I never heard anything negative from you about anyone. I just wanted to share my experience, my user experience. I am sure there are reasons for doing this and that, but I think the point is that I was left holding the bag. I just hoped that your shop would have picked up on the problem early on and raised a red flag. I can tell you that I am a very picky customer, and I pay attention to details, you know that. It just felt like the job was done quick and dirty without much thought about the end goal -- gain power, not simply make them fit into the car. Mike's suggestion to go to some exhaust shop does not apply, since I thought that is what you guys at RPM do.

BTW, the cats were taken down last week Wends/Thursday and I inspected them personally -- the whole thing was loose inside, both of them.

Again as I stated before, it is not about the power loss only. The whole reason to do headers is to gain power, not loose some or even stay the same. That is the only reason for me. So even no power loss and 0 gain would have been a show stopper and a red flag.

Of course it would be nice if you guy's at RPM step up and cover at least some part of the cost of me going back to stock. It would be nice indeed.

propain

I thought you were getting a refund through Kleeman? What were the extra costs. It was really nice of Kleeman to give you the headers for free and you would pay the labor. I thought the refund was for the labor if it didnt work.

dodger63

I don't think kleemen charged him? Maybe the job was rushed idk about that. I'm not trying to defend rpm that much since most who no Craig have very high complements for him and his dedication for performance.. Or atleast towards me.. I'm just trying to point out that you are blaming things that are unknown!! If in fact u removed the manifolds and fixed whatever it was that you or whomever thought the problem was and then in fact brought it to the dyno and saw considerable gains I would be behind you 100% but when others with the same mod find neglegable gains as you did... How could u as much blame the install as appossed to the parts themself!

AlbertM

Header (parts) were free, so no refund needed. I also did the Kleemann ECU and Kleemann would refund that as well, but I need to send the ECU out to Kleemann to flash it back to OEtune, so no problem there either. I meant the the labor costs associated with going back to stock.

I actually kind of like Kleemann tune, it is not as aggressive as OEtune, but it is also smoother then OEtune. So I am still debating whether I want to keep K1 or go back with OEtune. Power wise they seem to be pretty close. The last dyno I did showed almost identical numbers (granted headers showed no gain).

AlbertM

Mike, If you read my post carefully I never said that install is the only reason. I said there "maybe" multiple reasons including bad cats. Now, what did not help, is the poor quality of the weld and fit. It obviously raised red flags.

Cory @ Kleemann himself said that I should expect 440 RWHP, since that is what he gets with all W211 models, consistently.

Also, going back to stock was the only option left. I did k2, stock airboxes and still nowhere near the target. So why do I need the Kleemann headers at all on the car? No reason at all, so I went back to stock. Once we took the Kleemann cats out, we noticed there they were loose inside.

Now I am sure if you get Kleemann involved in this conversation, they would say that parts have nothing to do with this problem. So we have typical finger pointing here. That is precisely what I had to go through when I had OEtune, TTM airbox mode, Kleemann headers+RPM install. Everyone says "Not me". What should I do in this situation? What would you do?
That is why I decided to with Kleemann ECU, Kleeman headersm stock airboxes (thanks to you), and guess what same/similar results. After my report, Cory and RPM had nothing to say, nothing to suggest. So I went back to stock.


Also, Mike, I never said anything bad about Craig personally. He was always available, responsive and help me out many times. But I do question the quality of the work performed, that is all.

dodger63

I've given my thoughts and opinions on the matter good luck with your future journey! Let us no if you fund any better comparable equiptment for your car

propain

Gotcha. I guess Craig was speaking of the refund on the Kleeman file not the labor. My mistake.

For the record I met Craig at the beach and he seems like a nice guy. Hard to say "Hes a great guy" because I don't know him that well. I didn't know all those things about Jeremy either. Do you ever real know someone?

This isn't a witch hunt. This is about finding the cause of the problem and to learn from it. Also to see Albert get the right thing done for him. Hes a nice guy and he spent a lot of money to be the gunea pig. If it was all at cost he would have nothing to say I would think. I dont know what it cost him or what he lost in this being a test subject but I feel bad for him.

MB_Forever

Very interesting thread indeed..... but still no pictures of the headers before/after installation for us to judge ourselves? It would make it easier to visualize I would think No worries though.... if Albert does not want to post them, it's his choice

GHAZAN

We need pics, this thread is useless without. Someone owes you a refund if that was part of the deal.

AlbertM

I guess you are right. Pics are needed, so here we go. BTW, ceramic coating/paint is pealing as well. Let you guys judge. Obviously it is hard to demo rattling cats.

GHAZAN

Thanks it explains a lot of the situation and poor descriptions from some. The welding looks like it was done with a soldering iron and the dent is more than 2mm, but hard to appreciate unless it was off the car and in perspective with a surrounding circle. The angle is off clearly. Also, RPM said he banged on the cat to 'check' it, maybe that's what loosened it up or could have been defective from the beginning, who knows. It is clear the install wasn't going to work - should never dent primaries. It should've been aborted and money refunded with the steering column clearance issues. Bad on RPM's part.

MB_Forever

Honestly, I have no idea what kind of measuring device would measure that huge dent to be less than 2mm????? That dent may have compromised that header actually. It looks like someone literally got a rock and started punching the thing. Why wasn't this flattened out at least afterwords?



The welds are a complete different story all together....



I am at a loss of words. I initially didn't think the modifications done to the header was that bad, but now I have a whole different perspective.

SonnyakaPig

I think it is utterly rediculous and very unfortunate for Albert that a company would continue with a first installation of a product on a customer's car after it was apparent that the part didn't fit.

Banging on a primary to dent it to make it fit (these are exhaust manifolds, right, supposed to flow air and be as non-restrictive as possibl?) would not be an indication that a particular part is a natural fit on a new chassis that the part wasn't specifically designed to fit on.

And, I'm no welder, but just the angle of the connection where the poor welds are shows that the exhaust likely encountered another restriction at that point.

Looks like the manufacturer of the aftermarket manifolds were hoping like heck that these would fit on the W212, but these pics clearly show poor fitment and they certainly do not seem to reflect the high quality R&D that many people have come to expect from that company.

DAGREEKNYC

Glad i decided to drive the extra miles to route 110 .