SUPERCHARGED m156, 63 amg !!!!
#227
Just regarding your last point here: is it because of the nature of the transmission design that it just could never consistently handle torque of a supercharger or that no-one is smart enough yet to figure it out. Is is a design limitation or a lack or R&D. From what you are saying brabus MKB etc who dont want for R&D $$, just could figure it out which would ijply the design could never take the power of a turbo supercharger etc?
1) Trans software, again without the ability to tune for the changes, hardware is useless (reference Keith's built trans that lasted 120hrs?).
2) The stall converter, even with custom billet stator fin it doesn't have the ability to hold that kind of torque.
When I say that kind of torque, this is a 11.3:1 motor and it's going to be fed by a small twin screw supercharger. There are absolutely huge gains to be had in the torque department running high static compression with a TS blower. Being a small blower for the size of the motor it's also going to be making boost right off idle, basically putting additional load on the trans throughout the entire powerband. For those running street tires, their trannys will last longer than those paired with drag radials or bias plys due again to the tires themselves being the slip point in the system. The downside is with that kind of torque and the relatively narrow width tires we have to work with (less that ******* Josh ) you're going to be spinning, a lot. Spinning is not winning.
3) Trans hardware. Again some development has occured but nothing in terms of a complete overhaul kit with billet shafts, etc. The key to the hardware market is software, and that statement holds true to all makes/models. Until we can tune for it, no one's (relatively few and certainly not full kits) going to spend the $ to R&D one.
Now there are additional variables here as well. Due to the compression ratio and port fuel injection (for sake of comparison S65 M3s have piezo electric injection which is even superior to DI, so the 12:1 C/R is actually more boost friendly than the M156s) and not wanting to use a standalone engine management system (as weistec stated for their base kit) you won't be able to run more than 4-6psi of intercooled boost. That's going to be a nice boost but it's not going to shatter any HP records either.
Brabus had help from Bosch in the form of custom ECUs for their TT ML63s, rescaled A/F and timing maps to handle the boost. Additional boost would require standalone or a piggy back and that's not Brabus's style.
This blower (base kit) may very well turn out to be a great mod for heavier M156 platforms like the R, S, and CLs. I'm going to wonder about IAT and discharge temps especially in hotter climates until we see data, the smallish blower and high compression are going to combine to make some heat.
Now if you want to make say 550rw+ reliably aside from the trans/converter issues you're going to have to rebuild the bottom end, add a fuel system, use standalone or piggyback tuning, as well as make the induction tubes much larger. Want 600rw+ and you can tack on the need for a larger supercharger as well.
Estimate $75K for something like that, but again we don't have the trans/converter to handle that kind of build so back to square 1.
Do you think the trans of an SL63 is a different kettle of fish in terms of accomodating supercharger, or is it even more delicate?
Last edited by RStevens63; 01-08-2011 at 04:54 AM.
#228
Josh
Edit: one detail definitely worth mentioning is that when my local trans guy did the adaptations with the star tool, he said the fill time values were like a brand new trans. The acceptible range is from -30 to +30 milliseconds from "ideal", lower values being tighter (and better). For shifts 1-2 and 2-3 mine were both at -20. Pretty much duck's butt territory. 3-4 was -11, and the rest were slightly negative, around -6. Needless to say I'm very happy.
Last edited by C63 Guy; 01-08-2011 at 02:16 PM.
#229
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Vath ML63 Brabus C63 SL63 CLK63BS C63BS
It's a serious problem because there are 3 major hurdles. In order of importance:
1) Trans software, again without the ability to tune for the changes, hardware is useless (reference Keith's built trans that lasted 120hrs?).
2) The stall converter, even with custom billet stator fin it doesn't have the ability to hold that kind of torque.
When I say that kind of torque, this is a 11.3:1 motor and it's going to be fed by a small twin screw supercharger. There are absolutely huge gains to be had in the torque department running high static compression with a TS blower. Being a small blower for the size of the motor it's also going to be making boost right off idle, basically putting additional load on the trans throughout the entire powerband. For those running street tires, their trannys will last longer than those paired with drag radials or bias plys due again to the tires themselves being the slip point in the system. The downside is with that kind of torque and the relatively narrow width tires we have to work with (less that ******* Josh ) you're going to be spinning, a lot. Spinning is not winning.
3) Trans hardware. Again some development has occured but nothing in terms of a complete overhaul kit with billet shafts, etc. The key to the hardware market is software, and that statement holds true to all makes/models. Until we can tune for it, no one's (relatively few and certainly not full kits) going to spend the $ to R&D one.
Now there are additional variables here as well. Due to the compression ratio and port fuel injection (for sake of comparison S65 M3s have piezo electric injection which is even superior to DI, so the 12:1 C/R is actually more boost friendly than the M156s) and not wanting to use a standalone engine management system (as weistec stated for their base kit) you won't be able to run more than 4-6psi of intercooled boost. That's going to be a nice boost but it's not going to shatter any HP records either.
Brabus had help from Bosch in the form of custom ECUs for their TT ML63s, rescaled A/F and timing maps to handle the boost. Additional boost would require standalone or a piggy back and that's not Brabus's style.
This blower (base kit) may very well turn out to be a great mod for heavier M156 platforms like the R, S, and CLs. I'm going to wonder about IAT and discharge temps especially in hotter climates until we see data, the smallish blower and high compression are going to combine to make some heat.
Now if you want to make say 550rw+ reliably aside from the trans/converter issues you're going to have to rebuild the bottom end, add a fuel system, use standalone or piggyback tuning, as well as make the induction tubes much larger. Want 600rw+ and you can tack on the need for a larger supercharger as well.
Estimate $75K for something like that, but again we don't have the trans/converter to handle that kind of build so back to square 1.
The SL's MCT wet clutch seems to be more abusive on the 7G than a standard stall converter, in my opinion it's going to be more frail than a 7G with conventional stall.
1) Trans software, again without the ability to tune for the changes, hardware is useless (reference Keith's built trans that lasted 120hrs?).
2) The stall converter, even with custom billet stator fin it doesn't have the ability to hold that kind of torque.
When I say that kind of torque, this is a 11.3:1 motor and it's going to be fed by a small twin screw supercharger. There are absolutely huge gains to be had in the torque department running high static compression with a TS blower. Being a small blower for the size of the motor it's also going to be making boost right off idle, basically putting additional load on the trans throughout the entire powerband. For those running street tires, their trannys will last longer than those paired with drag radials or bias plys due again to the tires themselves being the slip point in the system. The downside is with that kind of torque and the relatively narrow width tires we have to work with (less that ******* Josh ) you're going to be spinning, a lot. Spinning is not winning.
3) Trans hardware. Again some development has occured but nothing in terms of a complete overhaul kit with billet shafts, etc. The key to the hardware market is software, and that statement holds true to all makes/models. Until we can tune for it, no one's (relatively few and certainly not full kits) going to spend the $ to R&D one.
Now there are additional variables here as well. Due to the compression ratio and port fuel injection (for sake of comparison S65 M3s have piezo electric injection which is even superior to DI, so the 12:1 C/R is actually more boost friendly than the M156s) and not wanting to use a standalone engine management system (as weistec stated for their base kit) you won't be able to run more than 4-6psi of intercooled boost. That's going to be a nice boost but it's not going to shatter any HP records either.
Brabus had help from Bosch in the form of custom ECUs for their TT ML63s, rescaled A/F and timing maps to handle the boost. Additional boost would require standalone or a piggy back and that's not Brabus's style.
This blower (base kit) may very well turn out to be a great mod for heavier M156 platforms like the R, S, and CLs. I'm going to wonder about IAT and discharge temps especially in hotter climates until we see data, the smallish blower and high compression are going to combine to make some heat.
Now if you want to make say 550rw+ reliably aside from the trans/converter issues you're going to have to rebuild the bottom end, add a fuel system, use standalone or piggyback tuning, as well as make the induction tubes much larger. Want 600rw+ and you can tack on the need for a larger supercharger as well.
Estimate $75K for something like that, but again we don't have the trans/converter to handle that kind of build so back to square 1.
The SL's MCT wet clutch seems to be more abusive on the 7G than a standard stall converter, in my opinion it's going to be more frail than a 7G with conventional stall.
#230
Yeah, there's a builder that Keith's mechanic works with that specializes MB transmissions. Without getting into details, it's practically a new transmission inside and they're all tested on a transmission dyno before being shipped. If you need contact information send me a PM.
Josh
Edit: one detail definitely worth mentioning is that when my local trans guy did the adaptations with the star tool, he said the fill time values were like a brand new trans. The acceptible range is from -30 to +30 milliseconds from "ideal", lower values being tighter (and better). For shifts 1-2 and 2-3 mine were both at -20. Pretty much duck's butt territory. 3-4 was -11, and the rest were slightly negative, around -6. Needless to say I'm very happy.
Josh
Edit: one detail definitely worth mentioning is that when my local trans guy did the adaptations with the star tool, he said the fill time values were like a brand new trans. The acceptible range is from -30 to +30 milliseconds from "ideal", lower values being tighter (and better). For shifts 1-2 and 2-3 mine were both at -20. Pretty much duck's butt territory. 3-4 was -11, and the rest were slightly negative, around -6. Needless to say I'm very happy.
#231
850nm=626lb/ft at the crank that's only 513rwtq (assuming 18% DT loss ) or 470awtq (assuming 25% DT loss) due to electronic limitations. This is not to say Brabus may have modified the trans, it's entirely possible given their budget and ability however I still have to wonder about the software end. For as many as they build it's possible that MB may have worked with them on a TCU but I cannot say for sure either way. Again though limiting the engine's output by using small turbos only spooled off 3 of the 4 cylinders per bank, and electronic limiters no doubt help keep it alive.
Brabus is unlike any other tuner in the world, in that they are the largest tuner of any make or model vehicle in the world and have the financial backing and factory connections to make projects like this happen.
Now the real question is, with all their resources why is a TT M156 limited to 516rwtq or 470awtq? My WAG is that they are counting on the e limiters to save the trans, maybe they did beef up the hardware but they are putting out nowhere near the torque that Keith did on his larger shots.
Take Care
Last edited by RStevens63; 01-08-2011 at 06:31 PM.
#232
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2007 E63 w/P30 and Eurotech CF Diffuser
It is because of the very reasons you cite (driveline breakage) that no FI kit exists. Others have gotten as far as Weistec aka Brabus, MKB and others, however they couldn't get past the trans and converter issues.
Problem is no one can upgrade the parts necessary to do so.
Problem is no one can upgrade the parts necessary to do so.
#233
7Gs have been around for how long and there has been ZERO development done on them why? Software.
You can't keep increasing power when the software doesn't let you. Sorry torque limiters and superencrypted software haven't been around for decades.
You think all these mega $ companies just said screw it we don't feel like finishing this project, let's cut our 6 or 7 figure losses and just not do it? Come on lol.
#234
http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/63tcm.html
just randomly saw this... dont have the most knowledge about this tranmission issue just want to get some opinions on this tcm ungrade from hennessey....
just randomly saw this... dont have the most knowledge about this tranmission issue just want to get some opinions on this tcm ungrade from hennessey....
#235
http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/63tcm.html
just randomly saw this... dont have the most knowledge about this tranmission issue just want to get some opinions on this tcm ungrade from hennessey....
just randomly saw this... dont have the most knowledge about this tranmission issue just want to get some opinions on this tcm ungrade from hennessey....
Thanks
#237
MBWorld Fanatic!
Kleemann posted this on their FB page. Xtra Power 63 Supercharger kit dyno video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK4nFksfbRQ
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK4nFksfbRQ
.
Last edited by olszowa12; 01-09-2011 at 07:42 PM.
#239
MBWorld Fanatic!
They added an entry on their Facebook page. Here is their thread - created a few minutes ago
EDIT: the thread was removed?!
EDIT: the thread was removed?!
Last edited by olszowa12; 01-09-2011 at 07:41 PM.
#242
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Vath ML63 Brabus C63 SL63 CLK63BS C63BS
so 2 potential supercharger kits to choose from!
perhaps...
Xtra-power says the supercharger has been in testing since May 2010
perhaps...
Xtra-power says the supercharger has been in testing since May 2010
Last edited by Maverick1975; 01-09-2011 at 09:01 PM.
#245
#247
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2011 Ultima GTR
http://au.finance.yahoo.com/echarts?...mbol=;range=5y
Cmon baby! 1:1 AUD-USD and 1:1 AUD-EUR would rock my MB jocks haha (Yes, I am an optimist haha)