C63 vs, CTS-V both being 2009's which is better value?
#76
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'15 E63S wagon
LT1? thats like saying when the cell phones first came out. I guess you still live in the stone age.
Pushrods only are used in drag racing b/c the engines are rebuilt every run? Jon, you keep digging yourself deeper into the "I have no f&&king clue what I'm talking about" pit
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#77
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02 CLK 55 AMG,09 C63 loaded with P30
How about adding to that argument:
-timing belts vs. timing chains vs. timing gears
-solid vs hydraulic tappets/lifters
-auto vs manual
-air to air vs. water to air intercooling
-struts vs multilink
-rack and pinion vs. recirculating ball
-projector vs ffr headlights
-vw vs mb coolant
-paint colors
It's simply a different philosophy, and in case you don't remember, Chevy did make a DOHC engine, and it was in the form of the original ZR1 and considered fairly exotic at the time. 375-405 hp in 1990 from 5.7 liters, normally aspirated, with old technology. It actually put enough power to the ground at the time to break world land speed records. That was well ahead of Mercedes and many exotics at the time. GM has no problems producing OHC engines, in varying forms, around the world. The design philosophy is not only what the engine is, but how it will be used, and you don't seem to be able to get over yourself and internet speculation about what is better, when the evidence would likely prove you wrong, in the form of a test drive. I love ****ting on GM, but you're very wrong about this and your grounds for establishing "power capability". You still don't even know what OHC was developed for, something that Chevy, using new technology, addressed in the developments of their pushrod v8 since 1993. Personally, I like OHC, but in this case, it's truly a preference, rather than any definitive "one is better than the other". You still don't know why, which is unfortunate.
The fact that you are equating the valvetrain design ONLY to power is truly indicative of how little you know of this topic.
-timing belts vs. timing chains vs. timing gears
-solid vs hydraulic tappets/lifters
-auto vs manual
-air to air vs. water to air intercooling
-struts vs multilink
-rack and pinion vs. recirculating ball
-projector vs ffr headlights
-vw vs mb coolant
-paint colors
It's simply a different philosophy, and in case you don't remember, Chevy did make a DOHC engine, and it was in the form of the original ZR1 and considered fairly exotic at the time. 375-405 hp in 1990 from 5.7 liters, normally aspirated, with old technology. It actually put enough power to the ground at the time to break world land speed records. That was well ahead of Mercedes and many exotics at the time. GM has no problems producing OHC engines, in varying forms, around the world. The design philosophy is not only what the engine is, but how it will be used, and you don't seem to be able to get over yourself and internet speculation about what is better, when the evidence would likely prove you wrong, in the form of a test drive. I love ****ting on GM, but you're very wrong about this and your grounds for establishing "power capability". You still don't even know what OHC was developed for, something that Chevy, using new technology, addressed in the developments of their pushrod v8 since 1993. Personally, I like OHC, but in this case, it's truly a preference, rather than any definitive "one is better than the other". You still don't know why, which is unfortunate.
The fact that you are equating the valvetrain design ONLY to power is truly indicative of how little you know of this topic.
#78
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c200k
I don't get where you get they have to use bigger displacement to get the HP emissions legal. This isn't 1972 and the Clean Air Act era.
#79
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c200k
Can you provide any evidence to that effect and what market they were trying to get the conformity for? You're also not understanding that power generation isn't a single peak number like you're displaying. It's how the power is made, which is why many cars with less power can out accelerate many with higher horsepower to weight ratio cars.
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02 CLK 55 AMG,09 C63 loaded with P30
Please provide a link to data ANYWHERE that makes this type of blanket black & white statement?
I live in the information age. I've learned a lot about engines over the many years motorsports, and I'm FAR from a know-it-all (I learn something new every day)...but I do my best to not claim to know things I have no idea about. Again, how old are you...20?
Pushrods only are used in drag racing b/c the engines are rebuilt every run? Jon, you keep digging yourself deeper into the "I have no f&&king clue what I'm talking about" pit
Ignorance. It gets under my skin and I should let it go...which I'm doing now. Peace gentlemen.
I live in the information age. I've learned a lot about engines over the many years motorsports, and I'm FAR from a know-it-all (I learn something new every day)...but I do my best to not claim to know things I have no idea about. Again, how old are you...20?
Pushrods only are used in drag racing b/c the engines are rebuilt every run? Jon, you keep digging yourself deeper into the "I have no f&&king clue what I'm talking about" pit
![slap](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/slap.gif)
#82
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02 CLK 55 AMG,09 C63 loaded with P30
Can you provide any evidence to that effect and what market they were trying to get the conformity for? You're also not understanding that power generation isn't a single peak number like you're displaying. It's how the power is made, which is why many cars with less power can out accelerate many with higher horsepower to weight ratio cars.
#83
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I think if you had the opportunity to sit down for a cold one with most of the guys you consider "lecturers" in this thread you'd find that they are hard-core "car guys". Before the internet, random gatherings (hangouts, the track, garages, etc.) is where car guys had just these types of discussions/arguments. At least that's where I did. Part of being a car guy is being able to hold these discussions intelligently across multiple brands, platforms, etc. ![nix](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/nixweiss.gif)
You are right on the money though, the OP should drive both and choose the one that pushes HIS buttons the best.
![nix](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/nixweiss.gif)
You are right on the money though, the OP should drive both and choose the one that pushes HIS buttons the best.
Hard to say. With information so easily accessable these days (google) it wouldnt come as a surprise to me if half these people never touched an engine in their life other than adding some oil and coolant.
![Big Grin](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
#84
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'15 E63S wagon
![slap](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/slap.gif)
I did read what I posted, and I'm correct (I even gave you the benefit of the doubt, misquoting you).
Top Fuel engines are rebuilt after every RUN. You are more ignorant about engines and racing than I thought.
You are way outgunned in this conversation, why not step away and drop it?
I'm still waiting on a link to your blanket statement about pushrods vs DOHC engines. Never mind that pushrod engines are smaller, lighter, generally more fuel efficient and cheaper to make.
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c200k
You are way outgunned in this conversation, why not step away and drop it?
Last edited by sknight; 03-14-2011 at 01:23 PM.
#86
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'15 E63S wagon
![slap](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/slap.gif)
Pushrod engines are often MORE fuel efficient than DOHC equivalents b/c they can spin at a lower RPM, make the same or better power, and get better fuel mileage.
Can you find a 505HP DOHC engine that gets 24-26MPG on the freeway like Chevy's SEVEN liter Z06? Make sure to check fuel economy on similar power engines, like Ferrari and Lambo, and tell me what you find. The only one that comes close is Porsche's Turbo F6 engine, which needs forced induction to make its power.
Do a search for his posts. My assessment will be painfully obvious.
Last edited by VCA_AMG; 03-14-2011 at 01:26 PM.
#87
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'14 911S (garage queen) '13 X3 (family hauler)
wow, this thread just keeps going on and on![rolf](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif)
I left a comment this morning came back after a day of working and the sword fight continues.
At least Jon has had a birthday in the mean time--you went from 19 to 20, good for you man![thumbs](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Seriously, I don't know how old Jon is, but if he's 20, I only ask the "engine gurus" what they knew at 20 years old?
I don't know if there's any validity to Jon's claims or if he's wiki-ing, but either way I think we all know who's measuring longer--sorry Jon, but these guys are just thicker and longer![EEK!](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif)
Mods, can we change the title to read "Which engine is a better value, C63 vs CTS-V" because this thread may be confusing for the three guys that use the search button![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
thanks man, just tryin to keep things simple and OT
![rolf](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif)
I left a comment this morning came back after a day of working and the sword fight continues.
At least Jon has had a birthday in the mean time--you went from 19 to 20, good for you man
![thumbs](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Seriously, I don't know how old Jon is, but if he's 20, I only ask the "engine gurus" what they knew at 20 years old?
I don't know if there's any validity to Jon's claims or if he's wiki-ing, but either way I think we all know who's measuring longer--sorry Jon, but these guys are just thicker and longer
![EEK!](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif)
Mods, can we change the title to read "Which engine is a better value, C63 vs CTS-V" because this thread may be confusing for the three guys that use the search button
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
thanks man, just tryin to keep things simple and OT
![drive](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/driving.gif)
#89
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'15 E63S wagon
wow, this thread just keeps going on and on![rolf](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif)
I left a comment this morning came back after a day of working and the sword fight continues.
At least Jon has had a birthday in the mean time--you went from 19 to 20, good for you man![thumbs](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
I don't know if there's any validity to Jon's claims or if he's wiki-ing, but either way I think we all know who's measuring longer--sorry Jon, but these guys are just thicker and longer![EEK!](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif)
![rolf](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif)
I left a comment this morning came back after a day of working and the sword fight continues.
At least Jon has had a birthday in the mean time--you went from 19 to 20, good for you man
![thumbs](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
I don't know if there's any validity to Jon's claims or if he's wiki-ing, but either way I think we all know who's measuring longer--sorry Jon, but these guys are just thicker and longer
![EEK!](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif)
Seriously, I don't know how old Jon is, but if he's 20, I only ask the "engine gurus" what they knew at 20 years old?
Last edited by VCA_AMG; 03-14-2011 at 03:53 PM.
#90
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c200k
I'm not an engine guru, but starting in high school, I began taking advantage of the school's pre-engineering program, despite not going into engineering for more than two semesters in college (subsequently changing). I wanted to get a better understanding of how things worked and physics and why things were designed the way they were, so I began getting donations on my own, of vehicles and machinery to take apart (even attempt a couple rebuilds) and analyze. It was a great exercise in initiative to make contacts to get entire vehicles- delivered for free, so I could rip apart a transmission just to find out about torrington needle bearings or how valve bodies and front pumps worked. Fortunately, those teachers were the guidance I needed to figure out what to do later, rather than do nothing. In my current life, I no longer have the time to rebuild an entire car (Audi turbo quattros was my thing) and restore it from a storage unit piece. I have no time to reverse engineer, nor do I have the money to buy a Star machine just for one car. However, in the future, I predict, and already see, ways of getting around that and will find a nice project piece to take six months off for, keep my mind sharp, while keeping it out of my career for a bit, and reconnect those neural pathways to my hands to get them dirty again and figure problems out during the course.
Incidentally, that HS program was when I learned about the LT1 and what the differences between it and following generations and older generations were, along with learning about different layouts, supercharging, calculations (all in the old Edelbrock catalogs!), and differences in design philosophy between various manufacturers and different countries. OHC, Pushrod, whatever. It didn't matter. I learned to understand why each team did what they did, no matter what the design.
Incidentally, that HS program was when I learned about the LT1 and what the differences between it and following generations and older generations were, along with learning about different layouts, supercharging, calculations (all in the old Edelbrock catalogs!), and differences in design philosophy between various manufacturers and different countries. OHC, Pushrod, whatever. It didn't matter. I learned to understand why each team did what they did, no matter what the design.
#91
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'14 911S (garage queen) '13 X3 (family hauler)
Passive-aggressive posts like this are internet forum classics...always provoking and hiding behind the "I'm just joking!" excuse. And what's with your awkward ***** reference obsession? Must be a C63 thing?
If this is aimed at me, 1) I'm not an engine guru, and 2) what I knew at 20 was to not post about things I didn't understand. He puts a target on his back with almost every post.
If this is aimed at me, 1) I'm not an engine guru, and 2) what I knew at 20 was to not post about things I didn't understand. He puts a target on his back with almost every post.
![rolf](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif)
I'm just trying to be "nicer" on here so I don't get banned again--too aggressive, now passive aggressive, I can't win
![nix](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/nixweiss.gif)
![Big Grin](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
As for the "***** reference obsession," I think it's fair to say that this is exactly what these debates are all about--I didn't invent the ***** size metaphor, I would say it's pretty much a societal classic and favorite.
In case you don't get the metaphor (maybe you've been under an engine block for half a century) it relates to a man's bravado or manhood.
Whether you face it or not, having lots of money, big muscles, a powerful job, a fast car--men are attracted to lots of this stuff because "we" think that's what women want (and most of them do) and this all circles back to us as men attracting woman so we can screw and continue our existence.
We're all animals and have deep seated desires and aspirations that exist for one reason, procreating with the best available women, end of story.
In our modern civilization we try to mask and hide from this stuff, but it comes through in all of our daily decisions and as MEN we are combative/competitive by nature because we must impress the WOMAN.
Anyway, that's where the ***** reference comes from, I think we're all pretty clear on it, hopefully that helps explain it to you VCA
![thumbs](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Either way, I've already said that you (VCA) and sknight are bigger and thicker on this topic of engines vs our "boy" Jon, but no one likes to have their nose pushed in it.
I'm an expert at my industry and explain and teach and discuss things with people all of the time and I try like hell to not come across like a no-it-all about my industry/business and it just boils me a little to see people being so condescending--whatever, I gotta go get some more tiger blood...
![Big Grin](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
BTW I can call it a pee-pee if **** is too much for you VCA--sorry if you're so afraid of it--I can't seem to stop tuggin on mine
![EEK!](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif)
![rolf](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif)
#92
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Passive-aggressive posts like this are internet forum classics...always provoking and hiding behind the "I'm just joking!" excuse. And what's with your awkward ***** reference obsession? Must be a C63 thing?
If this is aimed at me, 1) I'm not an engine guru, and 2) what I knew at 20 was to not post about things I didn't understand. He puts a target on his back with almost every post.
If this is aimed at me, 1) I'm not an engine guru, and 2) what I knew at 20 was to not post about things I didn't understand. He puts a target on his back with almost every post.
None of you are an authority on the subject. Its like watching watching a retard take a MENSA test. Unless your next post is engineering credentials for GM you are all just google ******.
![Smilie](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Was the internet even around when you were 20?
![Big Grin](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Lighten up.. move on. Its the internet.
![thumbs](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
#93
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'14 911S (garage queen) '13 X3 (family hauler)
I'm not an engine guru, but starting in high school, I began taking advantage of the school's pre-engineering program, despite not going into engineering for more than two semesters in college (subsequently changing). I wanted to get a better understanding of how things worked and physics and why things were designed the way they were, so I began getting donations on my own, of vehicles and machinery to take apart (even attempt a couple rebuilds) and analyze. It was a great exercise in initiative to make contacts to get entire vehicles- delivered for free, so I could rip apart a transmission just to find out about torrington needle bearings or how valve bodies and front pumps worked. Fortunately, those teachers were the guidance I needed to figure out what to do later, rather than do nothing. In my current life, I no longer have the time to rebuild an entire car (Audi turbo quattros was my thing) and restore it from a storage unit piece. I have no time to reverse engineer, nor do I have the money to buy a Star machine just for one car. However, in the future, I predict, and already see, ways of getting around that and will find a nice project piece to take six months off for, keep my mind sharp, while keeping it out of my career for a bit, and reconnect those neural pathways to my hands to get them dirty again and figure problems out during the course.
Incidentally, that HS program was when I learned about the LT1 and what the differences between it and following generations and older generations were, along with learning about different layouts, supercharging, calculations (all in the old Edelbrock catalogs!), and differences in design philosophy between various manufacturers and different countries. OHC, Pushrod, whatever. It didn't matter. I learned to understand why each team did what they did, no matter what the design.
Incidentally, that HS program was when I learned about the LT1 and what the differences between it and following generations and older generations were, along with learning about different layouts, supercharging, calculations (all in the old Edelbrock catalogs!), and differences in design philosophy between various manufacturers and different countries. OHC, Pushrod, whatever. It didn't matter. I learned to understand why each team did what they did, no matter what the design.
Sounds like a lot of fun!
I've always been fasinated by how things work too (natural and man made), unfortunately for me I was never around engines and cars as a kid, my dad always had nice new ones and I've always enjoyed reading the car mags, but that's about it for me.
Once I was old enough to drive, I got a 5.7 350 Z28 IROC and lightly modded it and enjoyed racing friends and strangers a like--finally crashed the thing into a couple telephone poles and learned to drive safer and smarter.
As my wallet got a little bigger I ventured into the German marques and have been enjoying this AMG car a lot--as my wallet grows and I get older, I start to value different things about my "toy" cars and for me, this beast is a blast
![thumbs](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Last edited by black-clk500; 03-14-2011 at 04:37 PM.
#94
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'14 911S (garage queen) '13 X3 (family hauler)
I think his point is more aimed at how ridiculous you guys sound. There is nothing wrong with an intelligent spirited discussion but honestly at this point you and the other guy are just as bad as he is right now.
None of you are an authority on the subject. Its like watching watching a retard take a MENSA test. Unless your next post is engineering credentials for GM you are all just google ******.![Smilie](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Was the internet even around when you were 20?![Big Grin](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Lighten up.. move on. Its the internet.![thumbs](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
None of you are an authority on the subject. Its like watching watching a retard take a MENSA test. Unless your next post is engineering credentials for GM you are all just google ******.
![Smilie](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Was the internet even around when you were 20?
![Big Grin](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Lighten up.. move on. Its the internet.
![thumbs](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
![thumbs](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
#95
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c200k
Its like watching watching a retard take a MENSA test.
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2020 Audi R8 V10, 2016 AMG GTS, 2018 E63S Edition 1, 2018 Porsche GTS Cab, 2012 C63 BS
What was this thread about again? ![Smilie](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Time to close as the point of the original discussion has long since vanished.
![Smilie](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Time to close as the point of the original discussion has long since vanished.