AdvancePerformance

I wanted to share the results of a recent H&R Spring Install we did for one of our loyal local customers. He posted some photos of his car here in this thread https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...sw-wheels.html

Here are some before and after photos of the drop. Keep in mind this is fresh after the install prior to any settling. We like the drop

Thaa kiid Jlee

h&r sport springs dropped him that much :o

M3EvoBR

Can you still align the car to the specs ?

CoolBDPhenom03

Yes, but you may have to go to the dealership unless there's a good shop you can trust who is capable.

M3EvoBR

I wouldn't align a bicycle at the dealership. I only use string alignment in my GT3RS and the C63 gets the same treatment. I wonder if the springs keep the same rake in the car. (rake is ride height difference between front and rear) The rake in important to balance the weight, and make the car handle properly.

jcarlucci1

Nice pics - I didn't realize it dropped that much..For anyone in the Tampa are I highly recommend Advance Performance for wheels/springs, etc.

DuaneC63

Funny you should mention that. I found a guy in San Diego that only works on Porsches and only does string alignment. He's really old school and won't even align your car unless it has coilovers on so he can corner balance it.

CoolBDPhenom03

I think the rake is the same.

I'm not sure what kind of archaic dealership you go to, but MB of Walnut Creek does laser alignment.

dubaudi

How's the ride quality with H&R's?

I'd love to hear a few opinions since these are on my short list of upcoming mods.

AdvancePerformance

No problem performing an actual alignment. We are a qualified shop that many other shops actually use. With the lowering you will see more camber.

CoolBDPhenom03

It definitely gives the car a more planted feel. H&Rs and some good tires make you want to max your speed out in every curve. The ride is also pretty firm. On some city streets in SF, it's like the Indiana Jones ride at Disneyland. Otherwise, on good roads, it's a great feeling to know exactly how your car is going to handle and it'll go exactly where you want.

Haven't done a track day so my experience is only on the streets.

M3EvoBR

That's the proper way to do. It's really funny that people are 99% of the time concerned about looks, and forget about the functionality of the suspension/car.

M3EvoBR

Ok, so by seeing more camber, you mean, you won't be able to bring the camber back to the factory tolerances. Not saying that the factory settings are the best, but some times you can't bring the camber back using just eccentric bolts.
As you are used to do alignments, would you be able to tell if H&R springs would keep the factory rake and if so, what that would be ?

Thank you for your input.

M3EvoBR

Not my car, but this is the set up I use to align my cars.

AdvancePerformance

Nice setup. That's how race teams do it. Gives the correct results. just like using an alignment machine, it is only as good as the person making the adjustments, and as good as the equipment is calibrated. If the strings aren't perfectly parallel, you will get bad toe numbers. Same with an out of spec machine. This is one of the reasons I personally like the camera based aligners like we use. Nothing to drop and knock out of calibration like with the infrared style. On those if a tech drops a head you can bet your a$$ it will knock the sensors inside off. Shop should have setup recalibrated anytime that happens. With a camera style setup, the cameras are mountes high on wall or beam where they don't get hit. The targets are fixed plates with an image board which the camera sees and reads. If dropped, nothing gets knocked out of whack.

as for camber settings, most Mercedes have no adjustment for camber in rear. Just toe. You are stuck with the camber gain you get after lowering. The car is scheduled to come back next week for an aligment. If you guys are interested, I can post up the #'s as well as take measurements of fender height at each corner.

Mike

DuaneC63

Mike,
If a C63 has no rear camber adjustment, and you end up with so much negative camber that you start eating the inside edge of the tires (like these cars need more help eating rear tires) what are your options:
1. Adjustable upper links (dog bones).
2. Symmetrical tires and swap have them remounted side to side every few thousand miles

M3EvoBR

Mike,

thank you for taking your time to respond. You're 100% correct that the alignment as good as the person who does it.
So with no rear adjustment, we already have a problem, I'll put the car on the lift next week and check the suspension design, to verify if the camber is controlled by upper control arms (which it shouldn't) or by the lower control arm.
The reason why it shouldn't be controlled by the upper arms is that changing the length of the upper arm, you will change the dynamic adjustment of the suspension. By that I mean, by the time it compresses and decompress.

Duane, I understand you asking about the upper control arms (dog bones) on a porsche, but if you compensate camber using those, that's not the correct way to do. You should use the Porsche Motorsports lower control arms, which are divided, and use the lower shims to do so.

M3EvoBR

I believe from your ''tone'' that the dealership and laser alignment is the best that you can get. Guess what, you're wrong.
Your alignment is only as good as the person who does that, but a proper string alignment, which is proper way to do, just a lot more time consuming and also expensive, every time the equipment is set up, it also needs to be calibrated, so you don't run the same problem as major places like dealerships, by your equipment being out of specs. Also dealerships only care about putting the car into specs, and not being accurate from side to side, in every adjustment.

CoolBDPhenom03

Thanks for the education on alignments. Now I just wish the dealership didn't try to charge me 2x of other shops slightly further away. I'm willing to pay a premium because they're within walking distance, but not 2x.

Mabuhay

I actually like the original better. I don't like to see any part of the tire hiding behind the wheel well. I think the originals perfect.

CoolBDPhenom03

Eh, it just needs some skinnys.

DuaneC63

Hi M3evoBR,
Excellent suggestion re the Motorsports control arms. We tried those first but even with no shims in them they still left me with -2.2 degrees in the back and too much toe in that the stock eccentrics could not compensate for. Its great for track work but destroys rear tires on the street. (esp with 315's in the back). So I left them in and added rear dog bones with adjustable toe steer links which gives me a lot of adjustment and really stiffened lateral movement in the back end (along stiffer motor mounts).

AdvancePerformance

Please keep in mind I am answering over the weekend and have not talked to my alignment tech to confirm 100% that the C63 has no camber in rear, but that is the norm now for Mercedes. I am pretty sure the case is the same for C63. As you stated, changing a control arm to add camber adjust ability or swapping tires side to side are the only two options. We do the latter and pull out some of the extreme to in that comes from factory. A lot of these cars (different models not specifically C63AMG) spec +25 to +30. This is to help stability at super high speeds and help flatten out wear pattern due to high negative camber, but accelerates total overall wear. We usually pull out some toe (shoot for +15) and recommend flip flop tires at 8-10k. Having directional or symmetrical tires is needed.

Also the wider the tire the less camber you need. This is the exact opposite of what usually takes place. Most people lower after getting new/wider wheels and tires. Everyone should really complain to Mercedes for not having camber adjustment in rear. Everyone else does.

mike

M3EvoBR

Toe links are a must for sure. -2.2 is not way too much for a 996 chassis, but if street is your main focus, for sure will kill your tires.

For example I run -1.8 in the rear, using toyo RA-1 tires (335/30-18), and 2mm of toe in.
Just be careful not to run the car too low if keeping the pick up points in the suspension stock, this will change the kinematics in the suspension by a fair lot.

Kreuzfeuer

So, was I reading that correctly that there is no adjustable camber bars (rear) for the C63?

If so, we might have a solution (would have to present the idea to him first to make sure he wants to take on the project)

There's a guy on the Crossfire forums (MikeR) that has built camber bars, adjustable links, the whole nine. HIGH quality stuff and very inexpensive, no Mercedes Tax. He might need an OEM C63 bar for mock-up, but I'm sure he could work something out for you all. He also makes adjustable sway-bar links so the sway-bar isn't pre-loaded... makes a HUGE difference on the lowered Crossfires, as the suspension is allowed full articulation as if it were at factory height.

-2.2° camber in the rear is a tire-killer for sure.

Here's a link for a preview, you guys let me know your thoughts?

http://www.crossfireforum.org/forum/...-hardware.html