forcefed6.4ford

It's not that it's hurting their sales. But how many more would they sell if you felt comfortable having all that power on ice and snow with AWD.

That is exactly why I bought an S5. A 500hp rear wheel drive car can be a hand full in the winter.

Diabolis

Actually, the only reason why the P30 suspension isn't available in the US any longer is because of ride quality complaints by too many customers, so you do have a valid point.

Having said that, I see that you're on 19" wheels. The difference between the 18" and 19" wheels in terms of ride quality is night and day. The extra 1/2" of sidewall height and the lower pressures that the 18" wheels require (the 19s need at least 5 psi higher pressures to achieve the load rating) make a *huge* difference. It's not the suspension's fault - it's because we're running thin rubber bands tightly stretched over solid metal which is what passes for wheels these days. Put on some 18s at 39 psi and enjoy the ride!

P.S. I've got both so I am speaking from experience.

Diabolis

Well- that's only partially true. I just sold my B7 S4, which I had every intention of keeping as a winter car, but after driving the C63 in the show I decided that the quattro wasn't really necessary. I do have the APX package with an LSD, which indeed makes a difference as it drives both wheels, but the *ONLY* difference between FWD, RWD or AWD in the snow is how quickly you can accelerate. When it comes to stopping and/or turning, it's all in the tires and the weight of the car.

I just posted on another thread about how much more fun the Audi is in the snow (which it is, without a doubt), but strictly from a safety perspective, it is actually more misleading because it lulls you into a false sense of how much grip you have - until you have to suddenly change direction or stop. At least with the C63 you know exactly how slippery it is underneath.

Karl901

I found the perfect solution. I bought the new KW DDC suspension.
It has 3 setting Comfort , sport , track. And it 0 to 100 % adjustable front/rear with your I phone.
And it a big ride difference from track to comfort.

swagkingcole

Agreed - the P30 suspension is so firm its ridiculous. Having tracked the car and done autocross, I do appreciate the performance and feedback that the car has in those arenas. Yet in daily driving it can sometimes be laughable harsh.

Once I switched to Pilot Sports I did notice quite an improvement in ride quality though. So I dont think I'll be going back to all seasons again any time soon.

Diabolis

+1 on both comments above. The Michelin PSS is an excellent tire for the C63, both in terms of traction AND noise/comfort levels.

HiLimit

Here in T-town the rumors are that the air intake will be on the side where normally the exhaust is, and the turbo arrangement sits in the top - V of the engine (where normally the intake is). The exhaust then goes back over the top of the motor and down each side of the tranny. (1/2 model year). Rumor is around 580HP.

rnorthen

Your comments on the P30 are interesting to me. In my opinion, the C63 without the P30 doesn't really provide the handling that this car should have, feels way too much like the E63. I suppose that's why it's common to lower with spring or add adjustable coilovers. After test driving with and without P30, it seemed that to get the full benefit of 500hp, you need handling to match, so that option became a requirement for me.

I do run Pilot Super Sports on 19" rims. My wife and kids don't complain at all about a harsh ride...

swagkingcole

I do agree with you. The handling on the the P30 is great as compared to other cars. The more I pay attention to it, the more I appreciate the precision that it has. The harder you push it, the more you appreciate it.

Ive been considering upgrading to 19' wheels. What are you running?

Diabolis

I agree completely re the handling and precision. We test drove both APX and non-APX cars over some badly patched, bumpy roads to make sure that the wife had no issues with the ride quality on the stiffer suspension (she didn't), and got the APX package (Canadian P30+P31+LSD). It is indeed much more precise.

Running Michelin Pilot Super Sports 245/35-19 on 8.5" wide fronts and 275/30-19 on 9.5" rears. Will likely get new outer barrels for the fronts to make them 9" wide over the winter and run 255/35-19 on the front.

rnorthen

I'm running 245/35-19 and 275/30-19 Michelin Pilot Super Sports on HRE P47 rims - 8.5 in front and 9.5 at the rear. Great set-up, works really well here, although I haven't had it through a winter yet. Don't think it will matter much, as I'll drive the A6 Quattro in nasty weather...

CoOlSlY

The solution is to make two versions of the C63 AMG One AWD and one rwd, everybody would be happy

callmiro

The actual solution is to have a driver selected dynamic diff that allows you to dial in rear traction (i.e. turn off AWD when you want and turn it on when you need the traction / and then have a dynamic setting that kicks the 4Matic into play when you need more grip)

If I can select Automatic vs Manual mode, then why can't I select 4Matic On and Off?

Diabolis

Cost and reliability.

The first-gen 4Matic systems had this. They had proper centre and rear limited-slip diffs, with electronically controlled clutches and they had three modes: RWD only, 35/65 f/r or 50/50 f/r. Too much complexity and too many reliability issues.

The newer (current) cars all use open diffs front, centre and rear and only apply the brake at whatever wheel is slipping so the power goes elsewhere. Very simple and cheap.

callmiro

They said the same thing when dual clutches came out (vs manuals and autos) and look at where they are now...pretty much the standard

Diabolis

Well, the technical challenges can all be solved, but it all comes down to dollars vs. performance and the perceived value of the final product. There is a significant price premium for a proper DCT, just like there is one for a proper performance 4WD system or for that matter a simple limited slip differential.

Over 80% of the C63s out there do not even have an LSD and most of them use crappy tires to boot, which to me is outright ridiculous, yet this very forum proves that the vast majority of C63 owners will gladly spend their money on carbon fiber diffusers, spoilers, hoods, grilles, mirrors, loud exhausts and expensive rims, which are all about looks instead of actual performance.

If the average C63 buyer doesn't even care whether the car has 2WD (i.e. a proper LSD), a complex 4WD system is going to be even less appealing. From a financial perspective, there is no incentive for Daimler to develop and put something on a car that would only appeal to a very small subset of their customers. It's simple economics.

Pickles

Yeah, I don't understand the LSD thing either...it was always a "must have" for us (should be standard IMHO), but talking to the AMG guy at our Dealership, he said maybe 10% option it?!
Cheers, Pickles.

VividRacing

maybe its because an aftermarket LSD works better and costs less

I just want to see this thing!

Diabolis

Agree 100%. It was a must have for me as well, but as your dealer told you, 90% of the C63 owners couldn't care less about the actual performance, at least not from a personal enjoyment perspective. Sure, they do care about what the numbers say, but it's all got to do with status and looks. A Quaife LSD costs about the same as a CF diffuser, but I bet you anything that there are at least 10 CF diffusers sold for every LSD. It's the same thing with Porsche, Audi, BMW and every other premium brand out there. 90% of them buy it for the badge alone and simply aren't interested in the performance aside from the bragging rights it gives them. Everyone is buying wheels, cosmetics, exhausts, lowering springs etc. but all that gives you in terms of actual performance is maybe 2/10ths of a second a lap on a track, yet a set of better tires or an LSD will easily shave off 2 seconds or more and be even more useful on the street.

Don't think so (I am not talking about the cost or the performance of an aftermarket unit vs. OEM - you may indeed be correct there). People are not buying them because they don't drive the car anywhere near what the car is actually capable of. How many LSDs do you guys sell to Mercedes owners in relation to all the other mods and goodies that do very little for the actual performance?

EDIT: I see you are a proper performance/race shop (which is great), but that also means that you cater to people that are more concerned with actual performance instead of looks. I think you'll agree that in general more people buy spoilers, diffusers and air filters instead of a decent set of brake pads for example.

edwardsflight33

Just by throwing on any AWD system it's going to make the car more appealing to population groups that see cold/snow. Most non-gear heads don't understand what a LSD is and if you ask if they've got one they will think you're looking for drugs. The concept that AWD increases safety because all it increases traction is much better understood (not saying they understand how it works, just AWD traction > RWD traction).

When I looked into the CLA, I saw it was primarily FWD, but could divert up to 50% to the rear. That was one reason I didn't get it. If it was RWD that sent power to the front when needed I think it would be more fun and misbehave a bit more.

Do most people look into the set up of their 4Matics. Probably not, they just brag about how they feel confident driving when the weather is bad (most likely partly cloudy) because their car is AWD. Never understood why there are so many AWD luxury cars in Florida. I refused to get the AWD on my Buick just because it hurts gas mileage (all the time) and since it is already FWD, I can get there by just taking my time and driving smart in the rain/snow (10% of the year, maybe).

I have a feeling if the AWD is an option, a lot of buyers won't get it. Partly because of the extra costs, but also partly because of the fun.

I'll step off my soap box now.

Diabolis

Exactly. The only aspect where AWD is going to have an advantage over FWD or RWD is acceleration - acceleration only, NOT braking or cornering - under slippery conditions. When the first snow of the year falls, the first ten cars in the ditch are always SUVs on all-season tires whose drivers thought that the laws of physics didn't apply to them because they had AWD. A set of snow tires on a FWD or RWD car is easily going to help you three times as much as having AWD if you're on all-seasons.

I suppose I should get off my soapbox too.

edwardsflight33

I will add that it does help driving up hills...which I guess is a form of acceleration.

Since my 507 is going to be my daily driver, I'm praying for a dry winter. I don't care if it is 0 degrees out, but I am a little concerned I won't be able to get up the hill to my house. I wasn't around last winter, but my wife said she had some problems with her Jeep Liberty even in 4x4. I comfort myself by saying it's because she is from Tx and never drove in the snow before.

Diabolis

I had a B7 Audi S4 (full-time quattro, 60/40 r/f torque split) which is arguably one of the best winter cars out there. On my way to pick up my C63 (with the performance package and LSD) in January, I had the same concerns as you - I thought "this thing is going to be a handful in the snow". Well, we had a fair amount of the white stuff this winter (not a lot quantity-wise at any one time, but frequent 2"-3" snowfalls), and with a set of snow tires, when it came to stopping and/or turning it was as good if not better than the Audi, probably because of the new tires and weight distribution (the engine on the Audi is WAY out front). In fact, after driving it for a few months, I decided that I really didn't need to keep the S4 as a winter car so I sold it. Come to think of it, I could even make an argument that it is a SAFER car in the winter because unlike the Audi and the 4x4 SUVs, you know exactly how slippery it is underneath. I have overcooked it in the S4 a few times in the snow and ended up with bent or broken rims, tie rods and control arms because I overestimated the available traction and slid into the curb.

The C63 is my daily driver as well. With a limited-slip diff and good tires it's not going to be any worse than any other passenger car on acceleration (start-up) either. All it takes is some grey matter in your skull and a gentle right foot. My wife found it easier to drive in the snow than her previous FWD-only Volvo, and way easier than the Audi because she didn't have a clutch and a gear lever to worry about. We're at the top of a small hill (with traffic lights halfway up and a sharp turn) and the C63 won't even roll back on an incline. She absolutely loves it - well, at least when she is the one driving it.

edwardsflight33

I appreciate the reassurance.

I'm still hoping MB gives the option to have AWD or not on the next C class AMG. I know it is on all CLA's. I hope they leave a RWD option for those of us with "gray matter," as you say.

We will see how the future goes. I know enthusiasts will fight to keep RWD, just like they did for manual transmissions. Now that there are automatics and DCTs that are faster than a stick shift could ever be, if you really care about performance you're gonna get the automatic. I wouldn't be surprised if the "nanny-state" makes AWD compulsory because of the perceived increase in safety (hopefully it won't ever happen, or atleast not for another 50 years). Good news is that technology will keep increasing. Maybe a future S-class will have a lateral force shock absorber to soften those blows from the curbs.

edwardsflight33

Now back to the main topic of this thread. I'm very interested to see what the next generation does have. I'm coming into Mercedes and AMG for the first time at the end of the W204. When it comes time for my next car, all of the kinks should be worked out of this next gen and tuning companies will have some brilliant mods worked out. A reliable 4.0 TT making 550 hp+ with only a tune and able to get over 30 mpg highway would cause me to buy a house a short interstate cruise from work just so I could blast it on the on-ramp

I think we are all in agreement that we'd like to see some weight loss. My corvette used to get 32mpg highway with K&N airfilter, Billy Boat exhaust system, and tune. Still had a 6.2L engine, but only 6 speeds and ~3300 lbs. A lighter C 63 would be the bee's knees.