Yes, another oil thread...
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2013 c63 AMG
Yes, another oil thread...
I've done a bit of research on/off the forum and have decided on the Mobil 1 Formula M 5w-40 (spec 229.5). I know that the new spec 229.51 is also accepted (Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5w-40).
I want to stay with the original spec 229.5 and I cannot locate this oil. I have called a couple MB dealerships in Houston and they only carry the ESP formula. I have asked for them to order the other, and they say they cannot. Regardless of if this is true or not, it is what it is.
Where are you guys ordering the original Mobil 1 Formula M 5w-40 oil from (which dealership)? I am in Texas but I'm sure they can ship it.
Also, does anyone have a part number for the Formula M (non-ESP). I found this in another thread: Q-1-09-0111. MB of Greenway told me that was a bulk oil part number for 15w-40.
Thanks!
I want to stay with the original spec 229.5 and I cannot locate this oil. I have called a couple MB dealerships in Houston and they only carry the ESP formula. I have asked for them to order the other, and they say they cannot. Regardless of if this is true or not, it is what it is.
Where are you guys ordering the original Mobil 1 Formula M 5w-40 oil from (which dealership)? I am in Texas but I'm sure they can ship it.
Also, does anyone have a part number for the Formula M (non-ESP). I found this in another thread: Q-1-09-0111. MB of Greenway told me that was a bulk oil part number for 15w-40.
Thanks!
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Use Mobil 1 0W40 instead. It's better oil for the M156 engine in every respect. It doesn't work with the BlueTec diesels though which require very low ash content due to the fine particulate filters, hence the OEM 5W40 ESP Formula M fill for everything at the dealer. AFAIK the ESP supersedes the older 5W40 formulation.
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2014 E63 AMGs, 2015 F-150 Lariat, 2010 Porsche C4S
I've done a bit of research on/off the forum and have decided on the Mobil 1 Formula M 5w-40 (spec 229.5). I know that the new spec 229.51 is also accepted (Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5w-40).
I want to stay with the original spec 229.5 and I cannot locate this oil. I have called a couple MB dealerships in Houston and they only carry the ESP formula. I have asked for them to order the other, and they say they cannot. Regardless of if this is true or not, it is what it is.
Where are you guys ordering the original Mobil 1 Formula M 5w-40 oil from (which dealership)? I am in Texas but I'm sure they can ship it.
Also, does anyone have a part number for the Formula M (non-ESP). I found this in another thread: Q-1-09-0111. MB of Greenway told me that was a bulk oil part number for 15w-40.
Thanks!
I want to stay with the original spec 229.5 and I cannot locate this oil. I have called a couple MB dealerships in Houston and they only carry the ESP formula. I have asked for them to order the other, and they say they cannot. Regardless of if this is true or not, it is what it is.
Where are you guys ordering the original Mobil 1 Formula M 5w-40 oil from (which dealership)? I am in Texas but I'm sure they can ship it.
Also, does anyone have a part number for the Formula M (non-ESP). I found this in another thread: Q-1-09-0111. MB of Greenway told me that was a bulk oil part number for 15w-40.
Thanks!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/171138636967?lpid=82
Regards,
Joe
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C63 AMG
^ 'stud - Have you ever seen a UOA (or VOA) on this oil? I'm curious as to how it compares to any of the known benchmarks in the the M156. Curious about the ZDDP factor primarily and its shear performance too.
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2013 c63 AMG
Use Mobil 1 0W40 instead. It's better oil for the M156 engine in every respect. It doesn't work with the BlueTec diesels though which require very low ash content due to the fine particulate filters, hence the OEM 5W40 ESP Formula M fill for everything at the dealer. AFAIK the ESP supersedes the older 5W40 formulation.
Will you please elaborate on why it is better in every respect. What evidence do you have to support that?
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2007 R500 and 2007 Ml 350
Most of people use OW40 including me , most of us don't realize that Walmart carries this kind of oil , I bought them from walmart last month for $22.47/5qts , if you buy a single bottle it is around $7, yes they are mobile 1 OW40, I have been using them for 4 years they are MB specification approval
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I am referring to the empirical data comparing the properties of the two oils side by side (from viscosity at low and high temperatures to shear strength), and the fact that the 0W40 oil meets or exceeds a bunch of other certifications in addition to the MB spec. The 5W40 Formula M is only a low sulfated ash oil that meets the bare minimum for the M156 motor so MB now puts it in all of their cars.
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'09 C63
I am referring to the empirical data comparing the properties of the two oils side by side (from viscosity at low and high temperatures to shear strength), and the fact that the 0W40 oil meets or exceeds a bunch of other certifications in addition to the MB spec. The 5W40 Formula M is only a low sulfated ash oil that meets the bare minimum for the M156 motor so MB now puts it in all of their cars.
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MY19AMG GT-C; MY14C63-507 - former Audi B6 S4
Factory Fill clarification.
I am referring to the empirical data comparing the properties of the two oils side by side (from viscosity at low and high temperatures to shear strength), and the fact that the 0W40 oil meets or exceeds a bunch of other certifications in addition to the MB spec. The 5W40 Formula M is only a low sulfated ash oil that meets the bare minimum for the M156 motor so MB now puts it in all of their cars.
Are you saying that MB puts in the 5W40 as factory fill in all of their M156 shod vehicles?
-C
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EDITIED
Very interesting. For the 2013 C63, Mobil1's site say the recommended oil is 0W40. I suppose the only way one can really see what's happening is by doing an Oil Analysis from Blackstone Labs. (Hope this doesn't open a can of worms.....these oil conversations usually become heated.) Stopping now.
Thanks for the information Diabolis.
-C
Very interesting. For the 2013 C63, Mobil1's site say the recommended oil is 0W40. I suppose the only way one can really see what's happening is by doing an Oil Analysis from Blackstone Labs. (Hope this doesn't open a can of worms.....these oil conversations usually become heated.) Stopping now.
Thanks for the information Diabolis.
-C
Last edited by chris135b; Oct 3, 2013 at 11:55 AM. Reason: Accurate data from site.
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Yeah... just b!tch3d at someone else in another thread who suggested using 10W60. Overheated oil and conversations indeed. 
I don't know what they use in other markets, but MB Canada (all dealerships) put in Formula M 5W40 in the C63. Not the ESP stuff, just the "normal" 229.5 spec Formula M 5W40. Now, I am told that the ESP oil will eventually replace the non-ESP Formula M, but seeing as the ESP oil at this time only has certification for 229.51, not 229.5, I suspect that something will have to change - either the label on the bottle, or MB will have to use something else instead.
I don't know what they use in other markets, but MB Canada (all dealerships) put in Formula M 5W40 in the C63. Not the ESP stuff, just the "normal" 229.5 spec Formula M 5W40. Now, I am told that the ESP oil will eventually replace the non-ESP Formula M, but seeing as the ESP oil at this time only has certification for 229.51, not 229.5, I suspect that something will have to change - either the label on the bottle, or MB will have to use something else instead.
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Yeah... just b!tch3d at someone else in another thread who suggested using 10W60. Overheated oil and conversations indeed.
I don't know what they use in other markets, but MB Canada (all dealerships) put in Formula M 5W40 in the C63. Not the ESP stuff, just the "normal" 229.5 spec Formula M 5W40. Now, I am told that the ESP oil will eventually replace the non-ESP Formula M, but seeing as the ESP oil at this time only has certification for 229.51, not 229.5, I suspect that something will have to change - either the label on the bottle, or MB will have to use something else instead.
I don't know what they use in other markets, but MB Canada (all dealerships) put in Formula M 5W40 in the C63. Not the ESP stuff, just the "normal" 229.5 spec Formula M 5W40. Now, I am told that the ESP oil will eventually replace the non-ESP Formula M, but seeing as the ESP oil at this time only has certification for 229.51, not 229.5, I suspect that something will have to change - either the label on the bottle, or MB will have to use something else instead.
And I'd still recommend it.
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10W60 is much too thick at both ends. As you observed yourself (I am referring to the other thread), the reason your oil consumption went down with 10W60 is because the oil is too thick to easily flow and properly lubricate all the various parts, including the cylinder walls and piston rings. If you were burning too much oil with a 5W40, chances are you have a different problem with the engine like a clogged PCV. Using thicker oil only masks the symptoms.
All other things being equal (and that's a BIG if), at the very least the 10W60 oil is robbing your engine of power when hot and causing too much wear at engine startup when the oil is cold. At worst, you're prematurely wearing out parts that require the thinner oil viscosity in order to get proper lubrication. It's as simple as that. I could recommend used cooking oil from McDonalds, but that doesn't mean it's the right oil for the application regardless of what your mechanic says.
All other things being equal (and that's a BIG if), at the very least the 10W60 oil is robbing your engine of power when hot and causing too much wear at engine startup when the oil is cold. At worst, you're prematurely wearing out parts that require the thinner oil viscosity in order to get proper lubrication. It's as simple as that. I could recommend used cooking oil from McDonalds, but that doesn't mean it's the right oil for the application regardless of what your mechanic says.
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With regard to the long Mobil 1 ESP oil change intervals that you mentioned in the other thread, we are in complete agreement. It is indeed an environmentally correct pile of poop, and from an engine longevity perspective I don't advocate the benefits of either the ESP oils nor the 15000 km (9300+ miles if my math is correct) interval between oil changes. On the P-car I change mine after every two tracks events; on the Benz, it's 5000 km as it mostly gets driven on short runs in the city, which doesn't allow the water condensation in the crankcase to evaporate and burn off.
I don't know anything about the Redline 10W60 and I am not going to look it up, but I am pretty sure your mechanic is wrong and confusing the 10W60 that the S54 engine in the BMW E46 M3 uses with what the C63 needs (IIRC the factory fill on the E46 M3 was Castrol TWS 10W-60, which incidentally is a group V ester-based oil, but for that application in that car with the Redline you're comparing apples with apples). My P-car mechanic has been building Porsche race engines for over three decades, but that doesn't mean that he knows what is best for the Merc. Unless your engine has been modified so much that it hardly resembles what you started with, if someone is telling you to use 10W60 in your C63 they're giving you bad advice. Period.
I don't know anything about the Redline 10W60 and I am not going to look it up, but I am pretty sure your mechanic is wrong and confusing the 10W60 that the S54 engine in the BMW E46 M3 uses with what the C63 needs (IIRC the factory fill on the E46 M3 was Castrol TWS 10W-60, which incidentally is a group V ester-based oil, but for that application in that car with the Redline you're comparing apples with apples). My P-car mechanic has been building Porsche race engines for over three decades, but that doesn't mean that he knows what is best for the Merc. Unless your engine has been modified so much that it hardly resembles what you started with, if someone is telling you to use 10W60 in your C63 they're giving you bad advice. Period.
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Like I said, I'm no expert in the matter, but I will take what you said and bring it up with my mechanic.
I hope you understand that I'm not trying to argue, but just reiterating what I was told by an expert in the subject matter (it's really hard to argue with someone who has worked on these engines for 25+ years and not find any truth in it). I really do appreciate your feedback.
EDIT:
You are correct that the 10w60 is too thick; at least when compared to what MB recommends. I will say that with the Mobil1 5w40 that I used to use, I had ticking noises at cold start up, sometimes when idling hot, faint white smoke from the exhaust on cold start up, plus the engine oil burn off. With the Redline 10w60, those problems disappeared. Maybe going 10w60 was a bit extreme, but Redline does make a 5w40, which I may be trying next.
I'm going to have a talk with my mechanic and find out what's his take on this. But don't get me wrong, I am not saying he gave me bad advice. With his background and my experience with him as a mechanic, I do not doubt him for a second. And he's not confusing the M3's S54 engine with the C63's M156, as I did a bit of research on the 10w60 oil myself when he recommended it. I even brought it up and asked him about it, since it wasn't an oil that was 229.5 spec'd.
I hope you understand that I'm not trying to argue, but just reiterating what I was told by an expert in the subject matter (it's really hard to argue with someone who has worked on these engines for 25+ years and not find any truth in it). I really do appreciate your feedback.
EDIT:
You are correct that the 10w60 is too thick; at least when compared to what MB recommends. I will say that with the Mobil1 5w40 that I used to use, I had ticking noises at cold start up, sometimes when idling hot, faint white smoke from the exhaust on cold start up, plus the engine oil burn off. With the Redline 10w60, those problems disappeared. Maybe going 10w60 was a bit extreme, but Redline does make a 5w40, which I may be trying next.
I'm going to have a talk with my mechanic and find out what's his take on this. But don't get me wrong, I am not saying he gave me bad advice. With his background and my experience with him as a mechanic, I do not doubt him for a second. And he's not confusing the M3's S54 engine with the C63's M156, as I did a bit of research on the 10w60 oil myself when he recommended it. I even brought it up and asked him about it, since it wasn't an oil that was 229.5 spec'd.
Last edited by tfthach13; Oct 4, 2013 at 05:44 AM.
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All is good - I am not trying to start an argument either. Just pointing out that the 10W60 is too thick for a stock M156 motor in good health.
With regard to the ticking noises with the thinner oil, it again makes sense -- the ticking at startup is likely from the valve lifters and the thinner oil doesn't stay on them when you turn the engine off hence the ticking when you start the car up until the oil pressure builds up. My concern would be why you can actually hear the ticking in the first place, and of course the oil burn/consumption rate. A thicker oil will definitely help with both issues, but again, my point is that there likely are mechanical issues with your engine (probably wear), not that the oil you were running (xW40) was too thin. I am sure that your mechanic has checked your engine and that if he told you to use the 10W60 there is a reason for it - but it's not the norm but rather the exception.
Cheers,
Doug
With regard to the ticking noises with the thinner oil, it again makes sense -- the ticking at startup is likely from the valve lifters and the thinner oil doesn't stay on them when you turn the engine off hence the ticking when you start the car up until the oil pressure builds up. My concern would be why you can actually hear the ticking in the first place, and of course the oil burn/consumption rate. A thicker oil will definitely help with both issues, but again, my point is that there likely are mechanical issues with your engine (probably wear), not that the oil you were running (xW40) was too thin. I am sure that your mechanic has checked your engine and that if he told you to use the 10W60 there is a reason for it - but it's not the norm but rather the exception.
Cheers,
Doug
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C63 AMG
factory fill wt is selected at times for MPG, a lighter oil will get a bit more
case in point my previous RS4: US = 5W40 and RoW 5W30 (regardless of climate)
I was told by folks at AoA the reason was fuel consumption in Europe
on older engines playing with the wt is not as much an issue as now
newer engines use the oil for various hydraulic control functions
tensioners
cam phasors/adjustors
pressure regulators
these are all calibrated (orifaces, springs, diaphrams) for a certain viscosity
bearing clearances and drilled oil holes are also sized for a given viscosity
too thick = less flow = less lubrication and heat transfer
I personally wouldn't deviate from factory spec, although I don't see a difference between the Mobil 0W40 or either of the 5W40's
also I don't see why an oil (especially with a 10 qt capacity and cartridge filtration) can't go 8-10k miles depending on service, obviously stop-go short trips need more frequent changes, but if commuting 100 miles a day and the engine gets hot and stays hot for ~1 hour or so, I don't see an issue
also as far as pour point/low temp starting, not a big difference between 10W60 and 5W40 synthetics
the pour point for 15W50 and 5W40 is the same -39C (which happens to be the same for 10W60 TWS edge which my e46 M3 required)
case in point my previous RS4: US = 5W40 and RoW 5W30 (regardless of climate)
I was told by folks at AoA the reason was fuel consumption in Europe
on older engines playing with the wt is not as much an issue as now
newer engines use the oil for various hydraulic control functions
tensioners
cam phasors/adjustors
pressure regulators
these are all calibrated (orifaces, springs, diaphrams) for a certain viscosity
bearing clearances and drilled oil holes are also sized for a given viscosity
too thick = less flow = less lubrication and heat transfer
I personally wouldn't deviate from factory spec, although I don't see a difference between the Mobil 0W40 or either of the 5W40's
also I don't see why an oil (especially with a 10 qt capacity and cartridge filtration) can't go 8-10k miles depending on service, obviously stop-go short trips need more frequent changes, but if commuting 100 miles a day and the engine gets hot and stays hot for ~1 hour or so, I don't see an issue
also as far as pour point/low temp starting, not a big difference between 10W60 and 5W40 synthetics
the pour point for 15W50 and 5W40 is the same -39C (which happens to be the same for 10W60 TWS edge which my e46 M3 required)
Last edited by Ingenieur; Oct 4, 2013 at 09:40 PM.
