BLKROKT

Well that's interesting thanks. So if I'm hearing you right, you would use the Rotella T6 5W-40 over the M1 0W-40? If you didn't have to consider your warranty? I'm going to have to look at some UOAs to compare, thanks for your input!

Missionary

So it looks like the car flavour of Motul 300V could be a contender in the don't care about your warranty category?

HTHS @ 150 4.53
13.1 @ 100
10.3 TBN

Mort

Thanks Diabolis for your comments and as always I find your comments informative and instructional. I certainly appreciate the time you take to share your knowledge with us.

I find your comments about Shell Rotella T6 5W40 of great interest. I will be installing my LTHs this winter and with that the effective limitation of warranty on my engine and perhaps drive train. I would be interested in running Rotella T6 5W40 since it will no longer be an issue for warranty, is reasonably priced and obtainable locally at Canadian Tire. My car is parked for the winter in a warm (48*F) and dehumidified space (my basement garage). Thank you.

avery.whss

i've been using mobil 1 0W40 for 2 years now, car never goes past 91C oil temp no matter how ***** deep i am into the pedal, and I never ever have to put more oil in, I can go 20,000KM without adding a drop.

Jasonoff

If you ever throttle lift after said ***** deep experience, there's absolutely no way to prevent oil making it past the PCV regardless of what brand of oil you use. You'll either burn it or catch it in something like a Weistec Oil/Air separator.

avery.whss

do you mean take your foot off the throttle early before a shift is finished when WOTing? if so, no i always left the car shift to the next gear before ill let off or just shift up manually..i do have the oil/air separator which helps i think a bit..im surprised there hasn't been a group buy in awhile for one actually

Jasonoff

Anytime, at high rpm, say 5k+, if you lift off the throttle you'll suck oil in through the PCV.

A good example of this would be cornering. Approach at wot, lift (gobble gobble oil), brakes, turn in...

If you don't have some sort of catch, all that oil gets sucked into the intake plenum and burned.

Diabolis

Sorry about the delay guys - life intervened and I had no time to chat about cars.

Missionsary - my bad, I was thinking of the Motul 300V motorcycle oil (which I and a lot of other people ran in our bikes so that's the first thign that came to mind). The 300V auto oil is a great racing oil, but unless you're changing it every 2,000 km and always run your engine hard for at least an hour at a time, it's not the best choice for a street oil.

BLKROKT & Mort (and Missionary) - what it comes down to at the end of the day is that the lubrication requirements of a street driven vehicle are very different from those of a racing engine. In a race car, you only care about good oil flow, sufficiently high and stable oil pressure when hot, high HTHS film strength, the ability of the oil to adhere to the metal bits as you are pulling well over a lateral g (during which time all of the oil will pool against one side of the motor and be unable to get to the bits on the other side) for maybe 50% of the time, and lastly low foaming and misting.

Now, seeing as oil breaks down due to mechanical shear, heat, combustion byproducts, etc., in the extreme envirnment of a race engine the oil is only going to maintain those characteristics and properly lubricate and protect your engine for about 10 to 15 hours, at which time you need to change it. Furthermore, seeing as it's a race oil and you're dumping it after 15 hours, you don't need to worry about starting and driving the engine the engine at -25C, dealing with all sorts of caustic garbage, keeping the engine clean from soot, combustion junk and other contaminants, preventing the oil from becoming acidic, and last but certianly not least, making sure the oil does not break down and deteriorate in 15 hours and be unable to provide adequate lubrication and protection for the rest of the prescribed 15,000 km (or ~500 hours assuming a VERY optimistic average speed of 30 km/h).

In order to deal with all of the things above that the excellent Motul 300V racing oil doesn't have to deal with, you have to modify the base stocks and add lots of various additives. You can't do anything about the oil degradation due to mechanical shear, heat and combustion byproducts that were your only enemies in the racing oil; you now also have to deal with other problems and you have to be able to use the oil for 100x as long as you had to with the Motul 300V. So - if you do it right, first you properly enginner the base stock to make it more "durable", which is sort of like making a tire that will last for 60,000 km but only offer 40% of the grip (performance) of a soft R-compound that will last for only 600 km. You then start adding various chemicals. First you need anti-wear additives (like ZDDP) and friction modifiers (like molybdenum disulfide) to improve the lubricity and fuel economy. You then add some more chemicals (like SAPS) to combat oil acidity from moisture and other caustic combustion byproducts. Then you add some detergents (like magnesium sulfonates) to keep the engine bits clean and prevent soot formation and deposits. You then add some antioxidants (like phenols) to combat the breakdown of the base stock due to oxidation. Then you put in some viscosity modifiers and pour point depressants (like plastic polymers) to prevent the oil from getting too thin when hot and/or too thick when cold. You also put in some dispersants to keep solid contaminants suspended in the oil instead of sticking to other surfaces, and possibly a few other things like seal conditioners. The anti-foaming and anti-misting additives (like silicone) were already there in the Motul 300V, so we won't count them here. Simmer for 20 minutes, stirring often, and you have the best beef stew ever. The only problem is - by the time you add all this stuff to it, you've completely lost that oh-so-exqusite quality of the Kobe beef Wagyu filet mignon from the cow that drank good beer and was massaged every day. Or, to put it in car terms, you now have a tire that grips a lot less than a Hoosier R6, but also works in the wet, at temperatures and pressures that fall outside of the 82-98C and 30-32 psi ranges respectively, doesn't disintegrate when ambient temperatures approach the freezing mark, and lasts 100 times as long. In the case of the Mobil 1 0W-40, that tire a Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R. The Shell Rotella T6 is a Michelin PSS.

Which oil would I run in the C63? If I was using it as a dedicated track car in the summer only, didn't drive it around town as a DD and changed the oil after every track weekend, I'd go with the Motul 300V or something similar. If I was using it mostly as a summer toy - daily driver with the odd track weekend thrown in - and didn't want to worry about changing the oil more than once a year, then the Rotella T6 would be my first choice. If I am using it as a daily driver, drive it year-round and park outside in sub-zero temperatures and still want to be able to take it to the track once a month in the summer and don't mind changing the oil twice or three times a year, then the M1 0W-40 wins.

Jasonoff

Any thoughts on the Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 0W-40? (Formally Esso XD-3 Extra 0W40)
http://www.mobil.ca/Canada-English-L...-esp-0w40.aspx

BLKROKT

Good stuff Diabolis, thanks! My car is not a DD, and I'm fine with changing my oil frequently - I try to after every 1-2 track days. Since I got my car, my oil hasn't even seen 3k miles before changing. So I'll stick with the M1 for now.

looney100

Delvac is made for heavy duty diesel engines. It's far from ideal for a C63.

Diabolis

Jasonsoff - aside from the M1 0W-40, the rest of the Mobil 1 lineup is generally mediocre at best, and the Delvac is no exception. It is worse - especially for a gasoline engine - than the Rotella in almost every respect. For example, the T6 has the lowest visocisty loss and highest shear stability over time from any other oil currently on the market - it's about 3.5x (350%) better than the Delvac for example. And, don't be misled by the 0W-40 rating - the Delvac 0W-40 40C visosity is 87cSt, same as the 5W-40 T6.

BLKROKT - the M1 0W-40 is my oil of choice in my C63 DD, which also sees regular track use during the summer. IMHO it is the best all-around package for the car, period.

looney100 - the Rotella T6 is also a HDEO. Yes, we are talking about gasoline engines, but in general HDEOs have to live up to much "tougher" standards that gasoline engine oils, and some of them are suitable for use in a gasoline engine, at least from an engine protection perspective. While I agree that the Delvac is far form ideal for use in a C63, the Rotella T6 is a considrably better choice for certain types of driving. Still not as good as the M1 0W-40 if you change it twice as often though.

looney100

Diabolis - Lots of good info. My concern with the use of any HDEO, would be that gas and diesel engine oils often have different additives to deal with different emissions components downstream. I'm not sure how those might interact with gasoline engine components.
Also - I wouldn't want anyone to have to explain to MB why they were using a diesel oil without MB Approval when dealing with an engine-related warranty issue.
While some diesel oils may work, the risks are just much greater than the benefits when most approved synthetic 0W40s would work fantastically.

Diabolis

I completely agree with everything you've written above. My only point is that most modern diesel engines do have to meet tighter emission standards as well, so the additive packages in some HDEOs are very similar to those required by a gasoline engine, plus the base stocks can also be of a higher quality. I am by no means suggesting that all HDEOs are better for gasoline engines that a well-engineered gasoline-engine oil - only that *some* HDEO olis may be better than *some* gasoline-only oils for *some* specifc applications. For a Porsche 928 for example, the Rotella T6 is at the very top of the pecking order - it's as if the oil was custom-made for those engines.

Now, given a bottle of Castrol Syntec 5W-40 and Shell Rotella T6, if you had an Audi motor that called for a 5W-40 with a VW 502.00/505.00 spec oil, the Castrol would be the only choice - beacuse the VW 502/505 spec requires that the oil be able to pass through some extremely narrow passages (almost the size of capillaries), which the Rotella can't do. However, given the same choice of oils and a 928 V8 motor (or for that matter, a M156 MB engine that's out of warranty), the Rotetella T6 would be the better choice of the two oils although not the logical one as it's not MB approved. I don't have MB-approved brake pads on my C63 or use an MB-approved brake fluid, but that doesn't make the Endless pads or Castrol SRF less suitabe for MY SPECIFIC application. I usually run M1 0W-40 in the C63 (am currently using the Shell-made MB 229.5 oil but that's only because it was put in when I got the 44O cooling package installed and I want to do a UOA after driving the car on the street for another 2000 km after the last track day just to see how well it holds up) and will continue to do so for the foreseeable fiuture - or at least until someone makes a bettter oil for the M156 motor for the conditions and type of driving that I do than the M1 0W-40.

At this point I'd take the M1 0W-40 over anythign else for the C63, but if (i) I were unable to get M1 0W-40, (ii) my only choices were Castrol Syntec 5W-40 and Shell Rotella T6 and (iii) the warranty on my C63 had expired, then I would put in the T6 over the Castrol in the C63, but not in my old Audi RS4. If I were to only use the C63 as a track car and not as a DD and was able to change the oil after every event, then I'd run the Motul 300V. It's a case of "Jack of all trades, master of none". The HDEOs are generally tougher oils and better for longer drain intervals, but the Motul 300V is a better oil if you run the motor hard for 10-15 hours and then dump it. The M1 0W-40 is the best compromise between the two so that's what I use in the C63 (mostly DD with the odd track weekend now and then - I have another P-car track rat for that), and I also change it at least twice as often as prescribed. Does that make more sense?

Gersh320

Awesome reading gents!
Any updates on your Shell 229.5 oil Diabolis?
Thanks

Diabolis

Got the oil change done this past Friday among other things and I have a sample sitting in a clean glass jar in the hallway. Haven't sent it yet to Fluid Life - I don't have an unused sample kit & forms here - so it will have to wait until I make it to the P-car shop or take it to Brantford myself.

BerBer63

What's difference between these two mobil oils and are they both useable for the c63?

Jasonoff

https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...formula-m.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...formula-m.html

skratch77

what do you guys think of liqui moly high tech 5w40? sorry if it's been discussed

bhamg

IIRC High Tech is BMW LL98 and MB 229.3 certified. Look for an oil that has BMW LL01 and MB 229.5 approvals. There are a ton of good oils out there that are MB approved. Few people on this forum do UOA's so it's all the more reason to stick with 229.5-approved oils.


edit: I took a look and there are two versions of the 5w-40. The "Leichtlauf" version has the good approvals including 229.5 and LL01.

skratch77

yes I was thinking of the 229.5 version.in the specs it says Mercedes AMG certified

Vladds

Can you provide more details about this? Thanks.

Jasonoff

There's really no more details to provide. It's too thick (cSt is a measurement of viscosity) at operating temp. The motor won't get enough flow of oil to properly lubricate.

skratch77

so the 229.5 spec oil the dealer uses is shell brand? is it ok to mix m1 0w40 to top it off? I went to the dealer asking for there own oil and they said it's in huge barrels and sold me one quart of Mobil 1 0w40 and said to use that.

I think the dealer thinks it's the same in the barrels and wanted to see what you guys think about topping it off with it

bhamg

The guys at BITOB are doing their usual sleuthing/speculation on the origins of the new MB 0W-40. It all sounds good so far.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub...des-Benz_AMG_0