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Significant wear on the outer tread blocks of the front tires and not enough bite on turn-in both suggest that a bit more negative camber up front would be helpful. Anyone have experience with this? Are crash bolts the best solution? How much camber is helpful? Did you do both front and rear?
Same questions I am asking myself. I need it mostly in front, the rear seems fine given I run 305s.
I found K-Mac camber kits, but do not know how well they work under track conditions, nor how much camber one get get with them.
In addition to K-Mac, I think Renntech is the only other comany that makes front camber adjustment bushing kits for the W204 C63.
If you're wearing out the outside of the fronts I'd suggest that perhaps you're over-driving the car or that your fronts are under-inflated. Are you rolling over the sidewalls?
I had to pretty much completely readjust my driving style from braking late and deep into the corner to braking earlier, picking a slighy earlier turn-in point and still trail-braking deep into the corner prety much all the way to the apex, BUT easing off the brake pressure more rapidly during the corner entry trail braking, which offloads the fronts a little more and transfers the weight to the rear, balancing the car better. You now have a little more load on the back and thus more grip throughout the entire turn, and can then get back on the power earlier. Essentiually, you shed off more of the speed in a straight line before you turn in, but then transfer a bit more weight to the rear and can carrry a slighly higher speed throughout the rest of the corner and exit faster. It's a heavy car and it doesn't like to be wrestled the way a 997 does, and you have to compensate for it with your driving. As far as lap times go it's a zero net sum approach, but the front tires last three times as long.
I for one definitely tend to overdrive the car - guilty as charged. I sometimes catch myself thinking I am going slower when in reality it ends up being faster. There is definitely a lot that can be done by adjusting driving style to the characteristics of the (heavy) car.
However, giving it more negative camber probably makes it a bit more forgiving and is a step in the right direction. On my last track day (NCM) there were a lot of long turns, some tightening. There was a lot of pressure on the outside front - and a lot of time gained or lost by how many g's one could pull for several seconds at a a time. This car likes 'check-mark turns' best: Slow down in a straight line, do all the turning at low speed and accelerate out. That does not work everywhere - e.g. the Sink Hole at NCM.
The issue is the right level of camber for street driving and track is different. Easy to adjust camber would be great!
I sent an email to K-Mac asking some more info. Renntech seems to only do toe-in kits, not camber kits.
If you're wearing out the outside of the fronts I'd suggest that perhaps you're over-driving the car or that your fronts are under-inflated. Are you rolling over the sidewalls?
I'm not rolling the sidewalls at all. I was running hot pressures in the low 50 range on the MPSS. Tire temps were hottest outside, close to the same in the middle and somewhat lower on the inside. Would lowering tire pressures not make the delta-T worse?
I'm almost certainly overdriving the car. But when the kid in the CTS-V brags that he had a really good session because the C63 only lapped him once this time, well it's just hard not to! I tend to come in hot and deep before braking and I'm letting the car slow further by scrubbing off speed through first half of the corner as it starts to rotate. I've never gotten my (stock) brakes hot enough to fade them, which suggests that I'm not using them hard enough. I'll try the brake-early and power through technique next time I'm out.
E55K, Black on Black. C63, Black on Black. SRT-10 NightRunner 363of400
What Diabolis and Wobble said is right. Get the weight on the rear tires as quick as you can. Let the rear of the car push you out of the turn. Best way to drive these cars for sure. And fifty psi on PSS's is WAY too much
2012 C63;1971 280SE 3.5(Sold);2023 EQS 450 SUV 4 Matic (Wife's)
K-Mac has an adjustable top plate for the front struts that might work for track/street adjustments. I have a set but not installed yet. I got them so I could do my alignment myself without lifting the car and having to do too many setups. Kevin said he increased the adjustment on a newer version in a message so I am not really sure but I will let him tell you. If he doesn't mention the top plate then ask him about it. If it doesn't give enough adjustment then surely adding bushings will. I have -3* of camber on the front after lowering my car ~1.2" (maximum) on KW V3 coilovers.
Got an email from K-Mac back. Yes, they make top strut mounted camber plates for the C63. They give 3 degrees camber (585$ per pair). The bottom bushings give 1.2 degrees. Top mount seems the way to go for track days, bottom bushings more for a correction when the alignment is off for other reasons.
Zcct - Bigtickets is right, 50 psi is way too high even for pothole ridden streets, let alone track use. At those pressures your tire contact patch is essentially a narrow and short straight line, so unless you're driving in the wet and need to eliminate the possibility of hydroplaning, you don't have nearly enough rubber in contact with the road.
All other things being equal, in the dry you want to maximize the contact patch size and run the lowest pressures at which you're not rolling over the sidewalls. Get some white chalk or one of those Sharpie silver markers and mark a few spots on each tire radially going from the sidewall to the tread over the tire shoulder. Do a run and when you come back look at those chalk marks. You want the wear to be down to the litte triangle marks on the shoulder of the tire (they indicate where the tread plys stop). Let air out if you're not rolling them as far down or add air if you're rolling them over too much.
And, that will also help with the kid in the CTS-V as once you get the pressures right and brake earlier, you'll lap him four times instead of just once.
Wobbble - if K-Mac makes camber plates for the C63, that's the easiest way to go so that you could change it "on the fly". I had Ground Control on both of my M3s and the 951, but the C63 doesn't appear to be a polular track toy so there aren't any other options tha tI could find. Renntech makes camber bushings as well, but as Mort indicated this is next to impossible to change track-side for an amateur weekend road-warrior and more suitable for fine in-shop adjustment due to other suspension modifications.
P.S. Seeing as this tread is more or less along the same lines as the other "track tires for road courses" one here (https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...d-courses.html), I am just cross-posting the link for posterity as there's related information on the subject in both if someone else decides to have a read at a later date.
Last edited by Diabolis; Jul 20, 2015 at 01:32 PM.
Got an email from K-Mac back. Yes, they make top strut mounted camber plates for the C63. They give 3 degrees camber (585$ per pair). The bottom bushings give 1.2 degrees. Top mount seems the way to go for track days, bottom bushings more for a correction when the alignment is off for other reasons.
We manufacture a “TOTAL SYSTEM” including Camber and Caster front replacement top mounts to suit virtually all coil spring “strut” suspension model Mercedes.
For Example W204 including Black Series W205, W212, W220, W209 (Black Series), R129, C124. Also latest A, B, CLA, GLA Models.
CHECKLIST BACKGROUND: The K-MAC unique patented strut top design simply replaces existing mounts (no mods). Is the easiest/quickest to adjust (from engine bay – accurately under load, no need to jack/disassemble). Just 30 seconds – the time to undo the 3 lock nuts. Design provides biggest adjustment range of any kit. Can adjust without removal of strut brace. Also no height increase. Fits with OEM diameter springs or smaller coil overs. Manufactured not from soft billet alloy but highest 7075 grade.
AVAILABLE IN: Stage 2 – Street/Race For day to day commuter use (quick change settings on track days). Centers are similar to OEM, but elastomer not rubber with separate radial thrust bearings for steering loads.
Stage 3 – Full Race Designed for no flex – tauter/quicker response times, more effective shock control. Centers are self align spherical bearings (PFTE lined). Extra H/Duty (massive 1 7/8” diameter) with separate radial thrust bearings for steering loads.
NOTE:Both Stage 2 and 3 “centers” are also replaceable.
FRONT LOWER ARM BUSHING KITS: Designed to replace the ‘4’ main/highest wearing bushes. The 2 lower control arm inner become Camber adjustable with the 2 thrust arm to chassis Caster adjustable. As an alternative also available of course are crash/fluted bolts for these OEM bushings. But they are inaccurate (front only) “one position” bolts providing a minimal .3 of one degree (3mm / 1/8”).
While the K-MAC bushings provide 4 times the adjustment range and a whole new concept – For the last 40 years replacement “adjustable bushings” have been labour intensive. If setting needed to be changed it required calculating the position then having to jack, dismantle and reposition bushes to the new setting.
The K-MAC patented invention changed all that. Now altering a setting can be done on car. Just loosen the nut and only a single wrench required to adjust to the new setting. And importantly accurately (under load) direct on alignment rack.
It means ongoing trips to dealers or alignment shops is a thing of the past – trying to accurately resolve (with one only position bolts) – steering pull, premature edge tire wear, or compensating for altering vehicle height, fitting wide profile tires/wheels or curb knock damage.
Also the K-MAC bushes are designed to eliminate the OEM air voided, oil filled bushes. Yet retain 2 axis movement. Result is improved brake, traction and steering response.
Many aftermarket brands also eliminate the air voids but with today’s multi link arms 2 axis movement can be restricted. With the result of actual increasing wheel tramp, loss of traction!
Situations in heavy V8 racing – top speed end of main straight and becoming airborne after hitting race curbs. Then slamming down broadside lap after lap. Where race car scrutineers rule that for safety, reliability only K-MAC bushings are allowed to be used.
Track days the front bushes can be adjusted for more Negative Camber (and track width) allowing to go deeper into the corners with improved traction and braking response.
FOR SERIOUS RACERS in the pursuit of front row of the grid lap times – combining the K-MAC upper strut mount adjusters means on track days can adjust for up to 3 degrees additional Negative Camber.
K-MAC REAR CAMBER BUSHINGS (only Toe OEM) allow also single wrench adjustment to resolve premature edge tire wear or fine tune for maximum traction on track days. With extra Toe adjustment to compensate for the new Camber facility.
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W204 Front Camber and Caster bushing Kit #502616K $480 Rear Camber (and extra Toe kit) #502226K $480
Front top strut adjuster kit (Camber and Caster) Coil Spring Models Stage 2 (Street/Race) #502616-2L $545 Stage 3 (Full Race) #502616-3L $545
Rear 12 link bushing kit #502626K $480
Current promotion for MB World members USA/Canada delivery - $30 one kit or $40 front and rear (normally $70 one kit, $80 front and rear). Can pay by Visa, MasterCard or PayPal.
Wobble - please let me know how they work out! And, thank you for being an early adopter of all the cool goodies - my 44O kit is being installed as I type this, after reading your endorsement on the AMG PL.
Another approach for increased front grip on track
I have a 2013 C63 P31 that I go to the track 5-6 times each year. And yes, I have adapted my driving style and driven in lower gears to balance the car around corners on the track. But there still are situations where more front grip would make the car more fun and faster. I have KW Club Sports, car was lowered, corner balanced, have gone up to 3 degrees negative camber in front and 2.3 degrees negative camber in rear. I run zero toe up front and tried some toe out. I have been working with a really good suspension tuner. I have found the best tire pressures for Bridgestone Potenza RE71R that gives the most grip and lowest lap times. At this point, I am using the stock front wheels (18X8) with 245/40/18 tires. I would like to maximize front grip using the stock fenders. Has anyone fit 18X9 wheels in front with the correct offset to accommodate a 255-265 tire up front? I am fine with modifying the inner fender liner. Any input from someone who has done this would be greatly appreciated before I start on my own.
I have a 2013 C63 P31 that I go to the track 5-6 times each year. And yes, I have adapted my driving style and driven in lower gears to balance the car around corners on the track. But there still are situations where more front grip would make the car more fun and faster. I have KW Club Sports, car was lowered, corner balanced, have gone up to 3 degrees negative camber in front and 2.3 degrees negative camber in rear. I run zero toe up front and tried some toe out. I have been working with a really good suspension tuner. I have found the best tire pressures for Bridgestone Potenza RE71R that gives the most grip and lowest lap times. At this point, I am using the stock front wheels (18X8) with 245/40/18 tires. I would like to maximize front grip using the stock fenders. Has anyone fit 18X9 wheels in front with the correct offset to accommodate a 255-265 tire up front? I am fine with modifying the inner fender liner. Any input from someone who has done this would be greatly appreciated before I start on my own.
Thanks for the input.
I am running KW V3 with K-Mac plates (Thanks Kevin). My alignment settings are -3.5 front and -3 rear with 0 toe all around, I will try pulling less camber out in the rear. No track time yet but the K-Mac plates really help with turn in and you can definitely feel the difference on how the car rotates - less resistance when dealing with the front heavy bias.
Running 18 / 19 x 9 isn't too common but it can be possible. For example, HMS-Tuning runs 19 x 8.5 +35 with 255's in the front with massaged front metal fenders and inner liners.
Fitment guys have pulled off 18 x 9.5 +22 with lots of camber and stretch, so I can tell you there is enough in board clearance. I believe a 18 / 19 x 9 +40 with a 255 tire will work without too much modification, the extra .5 inch will help bring the sidewall down so you won't catch the fenders at full lock / compression. But again, this all depends on the height of the car, but if you aren't excessively lowered and pick the right wheel that will clear AMG brakes - no problem at all.
I have a 2013 C63 P31 that I go to the track 5-6 times each year. And yes, I have adapted my driving style and driven in lower gears to balance the car around corners on the track. But there still are situations where more front grip would make the car more fun and faster. I have KW Club Sports, car was lowered, corner balanced, have gone up to 3 degrees negative camber in front and 2.3 degrees negative camber in rear. I run zero toe up front and tried some toe out. I have been working with a really good suspension tuner. I have found the best tire pressures for Bridgestone Potenza RE71R that gives the most grip and lowest lap times. At this point, I am using the stock front wheels (18X8) with 245/40/18 tires. I would like to maximize front grip using the stock fenders. Has anyone fit 18X9 wheels in front with the correct offset to accommodate a 255-265 tire up front? I am fine with modifying the inner fender liner. Any input from someone who has done this would be greatly appreciated before I start on my own.
If you go wider in the front you may need to beef up the front sway bar.
Any reason why you went with the RE-71R? It has been getting some crap reviews compared to its predecessor RE-11.
I am running KW V3 with K-Mac plates (Thanks Kevin). My alignment settings are -3.5 front and -3 rear with 0 toe all around, I will try pulling less camber out in the rear. No track time yet but the K-Mac plates really help with turn in and you can definitely fetel the difference on how the car rotates - less resistance when dealing with the front heavy bias.
Running 18 / 19 x 9 isn't too common but it can be possible. For example, HMS-Tuning runs 19 x 8.5 +35 with 255's in the front with massaged front metal fenders and inner liners.
Fitment guys have pulled off 18 x 9.5 +22 with lots of camber and stretch, so I can tell you there is enough in board clearance. I believe a 18 / 19 x 9 +40 with a 255 tire will work without too much modification, the extra .5 inch will help bring the sidewall down so you won't catch the fenders at full lock / compression. But again, this all depends on the height of the car, but if you aren't excessively lowered and pick the right wheel that will clear AMG brakes - no problem at all.
Last edited by colinamg; Feb 3, 2017 at 10:44 PM.
Reason: Duplicate post
I am running KW V3 with K-Mac plates (Thanks Kevin). My alignment settings are -3.5 front and -3 rear with 0 toe all around, I will try pulling less camber out in the rear. No track time yet but the K-Mac plates really help with turn in and you can definitely feel the difference on how the car rotates - less resistance when dealing with the front heavy bias.
Running 18 / 19 x 9 isn't too common but it can be possible. For example, HMS-Tuning runs 19 x 8.5 +35 with 255's in the front with massaged front metal fenders and inner liners.
Fitment guys have pulled off 18 x 9.5 +22 with lots of camber and stretch, so I can tell you there is enough in board clearance. I believe a 18 / 19 x 9 +40 with a 255 tire will work without too much modification, the extra .5 inch will help bring the sidewall down so you won't catch the fenders at full lock / compression. But again, this all depends on the height of the car, but if you aren't excessively lowered and pick the right wheel that will clear AMG brakes - no problem at all.
I would like to maximize front grip using the stock fenders. Has anyone fit 18X9 wheels in front with the correct offset to accommodate a 255-265 tire up front? I am fine with modifying the inner fender liner. Any input from someone who has done this would be greatly appreciated before I start on my own.
Colin,
I'm running 9x18 front wheels with 255/35 front tires, and they work great. Wheels are from a W212 E63 with ET37 offset. They've been road-coursed with no evidence of rub, but I'm on stock springs and at stock camber - if you are lowered and cambered, YMMV. Photos in link below:
2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Yeah that's going to be fine. I'm running 255/35-19 in front 9" width ET42 stock fenders lowered on H&Rs and no prob. I had 20mm spacers too until recently.
Edit: I stand corrected. My Vorsteiners are 19x8.5" ET45. Always thought they were 9" hmph. No wonder I could run those spacers without problem.
Colin,
I'm running 9x18 front wheels with 255/35 front tires, and they work great. Wheels are from a W212 E63 with ET37 offset. They've been road-coursed with no evidence of rub, but I'm on stock springs and at stock camber - if you are lowered and cambered, YMMV. Photos in link below:
This is great news! I can buy stock W212 E63 wheels and no need to build custom wheels. My car is lowered 1/2 inch but has 3 degrees negative camber in front and 2.3 in the rear. The negative camber should help with clearing the top of the fenders. I'm going with your setup front and rear. Thanks for the help.
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