The pics you are referring to first of all is from the Cat-back / mid section. Not the headers.

Clean welds are an attribute to a well built part. Gaps in the weld lead to exhaust leaks = loss of power etc. Were dealing with exhaust pressure and these parts take a lot of thermal abuse.

I am not knocking the value of the FI product, its been around for a few months and only a hand full of members have used them, (atleast those who post on these forums).

Given the complexity of header installs on our cars, it makes sense to use a product that's tried and tested, by members who provide regular feedback to guys like you and me.

Like I said, as long as you are happy that's all that matters, time is always a great test of quality. Hopefully the FI product will stand its test.

Wanna say thanks reading for months first post, have a 13 c63 about 6 months now with the p-31 and eurocharged it a week ago. Awesome by the way, sorry off topic, MBH all the way there time and effort shows through without it there would be nothing to knock off. They say it's the greatest compliment but that means little when it hits you in the pocket. It comes down to a choice like the others we make every day personally I look locally and go for quality. They will be the headers I'll be leaning towards for this monster maybe after the radar jammer / detector. There is a saying I once heard .......... the best or nothing later later

Please, for those that can't spot good and bad welds, read this before continuing...

http://www.valleybox.com/blog/how-to...cated-products

I've got no horse in the race on this, but I don't understand why everyone has to get so upset about the welds getting called out. The welds on the exhaust look good. The welds on the headers don't look like the welds on the exhaust. Quality welds are reflective of the overall quality of the product generally speaking. Especially with parts that have to endure that much thermal abuse. Crappy welds fail faster. There is a reason why when you get certified as a welder they judge you based on your welds, and yes, they have to be "pretty." I doubt some of the welds on those headers would pass muster (based on those pictures). I was interested in these until I saw the pictures of the welds. When I did, it made me pause.

The other thing I just don't get is why everyone has such an issue with MBH enforcing his legal rights. If Fi impermissibley copied the design and the design was patented or otherwise legally protected, he has every right to sue Fi because what they did was illegal. If he didn't protect himself, then hard lesson learned. No lawyer can fix that problem. Lawsuits take a long time, so assuming he has a cognizable claim, we'll see what happens.

Very well put and bang on.

My guess from looking at the welds on the piping compared to the header would be that on the piping welds they be using Orbital Tig welding (Automated) judging by the even weave and smoothness of the welds but on the header portions you can't use the Orbital due to the tight areas and the bends. Now these welds would have to be done by hand. The welds on pictures shown are not Tig welded so that would leave stick or Mig welding. The uneven cap and general lumpy look to the weld leads me think they were welded way too cold. The lumpy uneven look can also be sign of lack of penetration in the weld. This is kind of weird because the name plate they have on the header was attached by a Tig weld and still not very smooth and very messy.

Here is a close up I found digging online

That picture is hard to see. It looks super blurry. Can you just post a link? It does look a little better... I agree with Ugly-Nugget (lol) that portions of the headers' welds look better and some are really messy looking. I'm kind of disappointed because if there aren't legal issues with the headers, it would have been nice to have a lower cost option (even if I didn't go that route myself).

It's zoomed in and not a close up.i will have detailed pictures when I get them but I'm going to gave them ceramic coated

Sounds good man. Is Fi doing the ceramic coating?

Ok everyone I'm new to the forum But was looking for a set of headers for my C63 edition 507 That wouldn't break the bank now I'm not sure whose design is who's but I got on the group buy and purchased a set of FI Headers From Auto Talent... My Headers just arrived today and I wanted to put out a couple pictures so you could see what they look like

Im going to be as objective as I can here: Whoever welding this particular headers does not know how to weld properly. They do not know how to lay a proper bead. Here's why. The stack of dimes look that every finds pleasing is done with with a well set up machine and good fundamentals of welding. What you see here are small dots in each center of weld. This is 100% a result of a start and stop tack weld and over laying them one by one. It is completely an improper way to make a full bead especially on a header. You get minimal if any penetration using the stack the tacks, start and stop method. This technique is OK for autobody patch repair, but terrible for headers and structural work. That flange will crack sooner or later due to the poor weld technique used.

Yikes

I got my tracking also!

I get it that quality costs money but there is difference between paying alittle extra and being gouged with an AMG tax because the manufacturer knows there are few competitors in the market... and that is EXACTLY what MBH has been doing to us for years. Now that there is a competitor we have seen a constant whining hissy fit from MBH. Your headers are stainless steel not made out of gold or platinum and you can not justify your obscene pricing. Maybe some can be bullied into paying ridiculous prices for stainless steel tubing but not me. I can promise you this because of your conduct on this forum you will never see one red cent from me.

Really? "Doing to us for years"? Mr I've-been-here-like-2-months-so-I-know-everything?

A lot of people here run MBH stuff, and like it. A lot. It's quality workmanship, and some people don't mind paying for something nice on their cars. And can appreciate that. Who am I to tell Mike how much he should charge? He's still in business, so he must be doing something right.

Are there cheaper options? Of course. Does that make either product better or worse than the other? No. They're for different consumers, who value different things.

Why don't you back off your attack on someone who never "gouged" you or did anything to deserve that total garbage you just wrote, junior.

While I don't know much about welding, I have the agree that those welds make me glad I have ARH LTHs. On my lexus, I had headers that cracked. No thanks. We will see how these FI headers hold up.

Jim with all respect you have a good bit of knowledge on C63's and from what I can tell have been around awhile and have some race experience as well. I don't think that anyone will dispute that there is a price inflation because we drive an AMG, you see it across the board on most aftermarket parts. From day one I was told this is the AMG tax we all suffer because we drive a luxury sports sedan/coupe. Now I would like to address a few of your questions.

1. Who am I to tell Mike how much he should charge?
You are the consumer, the one who has to fork over hard earned money for his product. At the end of the day without us he does not have a business. We have every right to demand a fair price for a quality product.

2. Gouging is taking advantage of the consumer because there are few other options available... case in point.

3. I've been a member here since October of 2016.. I have as much right to voice an opinion as you or anyone else.

4. It comes down to value for money. If you believe that MBH is worth what he is asking by all means. Its the same as some people who feel they need to spend 5k on a exhaust system from some exotic European manufacturer. At the end of the day its just tubing that you can have fabbed at one of many different shops across the country. The only difference is the sound of the mufflers and their flow rate. Its not a contest to see who can pay the most for some generic part.

The headers pictured from FI are not 100% perfect but they are stainless steel tubes that you will never see once installed. I have run enough headers on enough cars to know that once installed you will never have to worry about them again. There are no moving parts to be concerned with and even if there were mirco holes in some of the welds (which i doubt) you would never be able to tell. I seriously doubt that anyone who bought FI headers will ever have a problem with them as we have never heard of such instances. The only critical fail points with headers is the flange and rust, and the gaskets and from the pictures those flanges look pretty substantial and since they are coated I don't see any problems with them rusting.


Just my thoughts on the subject.

I don't understand how mbworld can allow another sponcer to talk crap about other paying sponcers items.

​​​​Mbh has no first hand experience with Fi headers and is talking crap about there welds.

Go complain somewhere else.they sold 10 sets of headers and we will see how well they hold up.

I can't believe mbworld can allow another sponsor to sell a direct knock-off of another paying sponsors item. And compare the two products. The Chinese knock-off is a very poorly made copy of the quality product that was designed and developed by MBH. MBH made the investment and I'm hoping their attorneys block all future knock-offs and make people remove the knock-off headers from their cars. Of course, it will probably only be 5 years before all the knock-offs have cracked and have been taken off the cars anyway.

There is no patent on mbh headers.its a try y setup that is used in many applications.its not rocket science.its a few pieces of metal welded together.

Thank you that is exactly what I have been thinking.. I would like to know what technology MBH has come up with or innovation that would support his claim of a patent. There are only so many types of headers, Equal length, Try-Y, Mid length, Shortie, exc. MBH has not come up with anything new the only difference between them and the Tri-y sold by anyone of the major manufacturers is that his are for a Mercedes so he thinks he can charge 5x the price. IF MBH is going to sue FI he better sue Holley, Hooker, Thourley, and just about every other major manufacturer. I would love to see MBH come on here and justify his costs of manufacturing; ie raw materials, labor, overhead, exc. 2-300 for materials, throw them in a jig, pay a guy $25hr to weld x 6 hrs, overhead, fixed costs, variable costs, exc.. I bet he doesn't have more than $800-1000 cost in each set and thats being generous.

Exactly what I thought when I first read this thread. However, there is something called "trade dress." From wikipedia:

"Trade dress is a legal term of art that generally refers to characteristics of the visual appearance of a product or its packaging (or even the design of a building) that signify the source of the product to consumers. Trade dress is a form of intellectual property."

So if the FI headers are just another tri-y design, no problem. But if it looks like they copied every bend and miter joint (and miter joints are pretty unusual for headers), then I'm thinking FI is in big trouble as are the people that bought the FI headers. This is going to get ugly, but I do NOT blame MHB one bit, they made the investment and they should protect their investment with aggression.

Look at it this way. Let's say MBH loses and of course, that's always a possibility. Less companies will be willing to make an investment in our cars for performance parts just knowing that someone will send their product to China to be copied. Pretty soon, no company will be making aftermarket parts for the C63. And guess what, without any parts, China won't have anything to copy.

I'll say this... after seeing the pictures of FI headers above, I sure am glad that I ponied up for MBH headers. The welds on the FI headers are not even comparable to MBH headers. Seriously, the welds on the FI headers looks like they were done by an apprentice. The welds on the MBH headers look like they were done by a craftsman and someone who cares about turning out a truly high quality product.

Furthermore, a hypothetical situation to those considering headers on your C63's... 2-3 years after installing your headers, lets say THEY FAIL. At this junction, are you going to wish you had MBH or FI headers? I am confident that my MBH headers are going to pass the test of time, but if they do not, I am 100% sure that Mike will take care of me. Will a Chinese knockoff company be there for you when your headers fail? Will you buy a second set of FI headers at that point? Or will you pony up and pay for MBH headers? Either way, you'll have an awful lot of money invested into headers at that point.

Just to clear things up we are pursuing trade dress protection. The easiest way to think of this in a major retail case is Trade Dress case of Apple vs Samsung, and how particular elements were distinctive and visual to that company's product and therefore protected. We have elements and a look to our product that are purely for artistic and aesthetic reasons to make people associate it to us.

The function of our header is a Tri-Y. We are not seeking protection of a Tri-Y header. We are seeking protection of the assetic parts such as shape, appearance and their relationship to eachother as a whole.

I get it, Im a pretty brash guy when I feel I have been wronged. Oh well. Again if you think I want this fight or want to take legal action your crazy. However jobs rely on it, so I have too.

You can love, like, or hate what we do, but one thing is for sure. We are not price gougers. If anyone tries to make a header to the same quality we make ours, they will quickly realize how little we actually make on them.

Mbh the apple vs Samsung was almost all dropped after the court invalidated almost all of apple patents that were never supposed to get a patent in the first place.

Apple patanted a cell with round corners.that has been dropped and is an invalid patent.

Have you purchased a set to compare one to one with yours? Fi is a big company and they will most definitely fight back with all the slander you are spreading about there welds

As a welder, stating facts about welding is not slander lol. If I made a bogus claim then sure, but facts are facts. I totally get how ignorance is bliss though. Those FI welds are good enough for you though lol.