W204 C63 FI Headers. End of the year $2190 shipped special!
#201
MBWorld Fanatic!
You are slandering Fi with zero to back up there welding or product.
#202
Super Member
Guys, get over it, you own a very nice car and there aren't a lot of them. With that comes more expensive aftermarket parts. There are fewer sales to amortize the investment. Of course, the Chinese knockoffs don't have an investment, so that's just one reason they are less money. That and the labor rate and crappy materials cost a lot less.
If you want a good header for less money, then buy a Camaro.
Oh, and Skratch77, I think you meant to say that MBH was guilty of libel (written) not slander (speaking). And the internet is a very dangerous place. Just by writing bad things about MBH in this thread, aren't you exposing yourself to possible libel?
If you want a good header for less money, then buy a Camaro.
Oh, and Skratch77, I think you meant to say that MBH was guilty of libel (written) not slander (speaking). And the internet is a very dangerous place. Just by writing bad things about MBH in this thread, aren't you exposing yourself to possible libel?
Last edited by glennhl; 07-04-2017 at 08:50 PM.
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BLKROKT (07-04-2017)
#203
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Problem is FI doesnt make these, Per my conversations with FI they are made in CHINA. Enjoy your 4th
#204
MBWorld Fanatic!
Guys, get over it, you own a very nice car and there aren't a lot of them. With that comes more expensive aftermarket parts. There are fewer sales to amortize the investment. Of course, the Chinese knockoffs don't have an investment, so that's just one reason they are less money. That and the labor rate and crappy materials cost a lot less.
If you want a good header for less money, then buy a Camaro.
Oh, and Skratch77, I think you meant to say that MBH was guilty of libel (written) not slander (speaking). And the internet is a very dangerous place. Just by writing bad things about MBH in this thread, aren't you exposing yourself to possible libel?
If you want a good header for less money, then buy a Camaro.
Oh, and Skratch77, I think you meant to say that MBH was guilty of libel (written) not slander (speaking). And the internet is a very dangerous place. Just by writing bad things about MBH in this thread, aren't you exposing yourself to possible libel?
He is saying there welds crack and are not good and not to buy there product.
#205
Super Member
You don't have to say anything bad about his product. You can say bad things about him and it's possible slander. Write something bad about the person then it's possible libel. Like I said, the internet is a dangerous place. I doubt if anyone would sue you for what you wrote and most judges would throw it out if they did, but do you really want to expose yourself to that.
#206
MBWorld Fanatic!
You don't have to say anything bad about his product. You can say bad things about him and it's possible slander. Write something bad about the person then it's possible libel. Like I said, the internet is a dangerous place. I doubt if anyone would sue you for what you wrote and most judges would throw it out if they did, but do you really want to expose yourself to that.
#207
Former Vendor of MBWorld
I did not say there welds crack. In fact I know of no cases (yet) of a failed FI header on a C63. Bringing a copied product to market creates confusion. Where one is good and the other is sub-standard and sold for less. By the looks of the images shown it's easy to tell what one is sub-standard. I really hope you enjoy your headers when you get them, I truly do. However, you getting mad at me for pointing out facts with the FI headers feels like you got some buyers remorse.
#208
MBWorld Fanatic!
I did not say there welds crack. In fact I know of no cases (yet) of a failed FI header on a C63. Bringing a copied product to market creates confusion. Where one is good and the other is sub-standard and sold for less. By the looks of the images shown it's easy to tell what one is sub-standard. I really hope you enjoy your headers when you get them, I truly do. However, you getting mad at me for pointing out facts with the FI headers feels like you got some buyers remorse.
#209
Super Member
"You are slandering Fi with zero to back up there welding or product."
That can be considered defaming Mike because you said he slandered someone when he didn't. He just stated facts.
#210
Super Member
I did not say there welds crack. In fact I know of no cases (yet) of a failed FI header on a C63. Bringing a copied product to market creates confusion. Where one is good and the other is sub-standard and sold for less. By the looks of the images shown it's easy to tell what one is sub-standard. I really hope you enjoy your headers when you get them, I truly do. However, you getting mad at me for pointing out facts with the FI headers feels like you got some buyers remorse.
#211
MBWorld Fanatic!
He is going off a low resolution picture of the product and saying they will crack and fail.
Now if a 3rd party bought a set and did a welder test and found they cracked under normal heat and stress would be a different story. But he is posting in an Fi thread bad mouthing there product and saying it will crack and fail along with all the other things he said about the welds and product.
Last edited by skratch77; 07-04-2017 at 10:23 PM.
#212
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Los Angeles
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2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Wait a second. You saying that glennhl said that you said that C63fora2w1 said that skratch77 said that Mike said that FI welds are ****, means that you maybe might not anti un-be liable not for slander too maybe not.
I'm reporting all of you to the authorities. For making me lose IQ points and hurting my feelings.
I'm reporting all of you to the authorities. For making me lose IQ points and hurting my feelings.
#213
Super Member
Hold up hold up. He is now stating facts? When he has never seen or held the product in person and said there flanges will crack and then states there is no know Fi headers that failed yet as facts now?
He is going off a low resolution picture of the product and saying they will crack and fail.
Now if a 3rd party bought a set and did a welder test and found they cracked under normal heat and stress would be a different story. But he is posting in an Fi thread bad mouthing there product and saying it will crack and fail along with all the other things he said about the welds and product.
He is going off a low resolution picture of the product and saying they will crack and fail.
Now if a 3rd party bought a set and did a welder test and found they cracked under normal heat and stress would be a different story. But he is posting in an Fi thread bad mouthing there product and saying it will crack and fail along with all the other things he said about the welds and product.
#214
Super Member
Wait a second. You saying that glennhl said that you said that C63fora2w1 said that skratch77 said that Mike said that FI welds are ****, means that you maybe might not anti un-be liable not for slander too maybe not.
I'm reporting all of you to the authorities. For making me lose IQ points and hurting my feelings.
I'm reporting all of you to the authorities. For making me lose IQ points and hurting my feelings.
Thanks, I needed that!!!
![thumbs](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
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BLKROKT (09-04-2018)
#215
Exactly what I thought when I first read this thread. However, there is something called "trade dress." From wikipedia:
"Trade dress is a legal term of art that generally refers to characteristics of the visual appearance of a product or its packaging (or even the design of a building) that signify the source of the product to consumers. Trade dress is a form of intellectual property."
So if the FI headers are just another tri-y design, no problem. But if it looks like they copied every bend and miter joint (and miter joints are pretty unusual for headers), then I'm thinking FI is in big trouble as are the people that bought the FI headers. This is going to get ugly, but I do NOT blame MHB one bit, they made the investment and they should protect their investment with aggression.
Look at it this way. Let's say MBH loses and of course, that's always a possibility. Less companies will be willing to make an investment in our cars for performance parts just knowing that someone will send their product to China to be copied. Pretty soon, no company will be making aftermarket parts for the C63. And guess what, without any parts, China won't have anything to copy.
"Trade dress is a legal term of art that generally refers to characteristics of the visual appearance of a product or its packaging (or even the design of a building) that signify the source of the product to consumers. Trade dress is a form of intellectual property."
So if the FI headers are just another tri-y design, no problem. But if it looks like they copied every bend and miter joint (and miter joints are pretty unusual for headers), then I'm thinking FI is in big trouble as are the people that bought the FI headers. This is going to get ugly, but I do NOT blame MHB one bit, they made the investment and they should protect their investment with aggression.
Look at it this way. Let's say MBH loses and of course, that's always a possibility. Less companies will be willing to make an investment in our cars for performance parts just knowing that someone will send their product to China to be copied. Pretty soon, no company will be making aftermarket parts for the C63. And guess what, without any parts, China won't have anything to copy.
IP law is a hell of a lot more complicated than you think. I would be interested in seeing what patent, if any, MBH has, and if their claim would stand up given it is a bunch of tubes and there's only so many ways to skin a cat.
#217
Super Member
I'm surprised that as an attorney you didn't fill in the blanks. ![Big Grin](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Maybe it's about supporting vendors who invest in our cars. If all we support are Chinese knock-offs, then that's all we will have.
I worked 40 years in aerospace engineering, I have 12 patents, so I know a little about intellectual property but probably not as much as you do. IP is the heart of a technology company and they have to fight constantly to protect it. I feel sorry for MBH, that's all. It's just not right for another company to knock off what they developed. Developing a tri-y header to fit the very tight engine compartment that exists in the C63 is not trivial. And investing in the tooling and machinery and having the craftsman that can make good full penetration welds also is not cheap.
But then again, it's stuff like this that keeps you employed.
![Big Grin](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Maybe it's about supporting vendors who invest in our cars. If all we support are Chinese knock-offs, then that's all we will have.
I worked 40 years in aerospace engineering, I have 12 patents, so I know a little about intellectual property but probably not as much as you do. IP is the heart of a technology company and they have to fight constantly to protect it. I feel sorry for MBH, that's all. It's just not right for another company to knock off what they developed. Developing a tri-y header to fit the very tight engine compartment that exists in the C63 is not trivial. And investing in the tooling and machinery and having the craftsman that can make good full penetration welds also is not cheap.
But then again, it's stuff like this that keeps you employed.
![thumbs](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Last edited by glennhl; 07-05-2017 at 12:17 AM.
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BLKROKT (07-05-2017)
#218
I respect a company's right to protect their handiwork, and recognize the importance of doing so.
However, here, I don't know if they're protecting the fruits of their labor, or simply complaining about a legitimate competitor in a competitive market.
I don't see other companies that are victims of knockoffs going around making the same comments. I suppose because they know their product speaks for itself.
If MBH is convinced FI is garbage, I don't see why they're as nasty as they are; FI will get pushed out of the market if its products fail, and nobody will actually confuse the two.
However, here, I don't know if they're protecting the fruits of their labor, or simply complaining about a legitimate competitor in a competitive market.
I don't see other companies that are victims of knockoffs going around making the same comments. I suppose because they know their product speaks for itself.
If MBH is convinced FI is garbage, I don't see why they're as nasty as they are; FI will get pushed out of the market if its products fail, and nobody will actually confuse the two.
#219
Super Member
I respect a company's right to protect their handiwork, and recognize the importance of doing so.
However, here, I don't know if they're protecting the fruits of their labor, or simply complaining about a legitimate competitor in a competitive market.
I don't see other companies that are victims of knockoffs going around making the same comments. I suppose because they know their product speaks for itself.
If MBH is convinced FI is garbage, I don't see why they're as nasty as they are; FI will get pushed out of the market if its products fail, and nobody will actually confuse the two.
However, here, I don't know if they're protecting the fruits of their labor, or simply complaining about a legitimate competitor in a competitive market.
I don't see other companies that are victims of knockoffs going around making the same comments. I suppose because they know their product speaks for itself.
If MBH is convinced FI is garbage, I don't see why they're as nasty as they are; FI will get pushed out of the market if its products fail, and nobody will actually confuse the two.
#220
I think it's going to be very messy, and very expensive if MBH genuinely is going to pursue an IP claim against various other headers manufacturers.
There is are clear jurisdictional issues; MBH is American, a lot of these other companies are not, and certainly some of their customers are not American.
MBH cited the Apple v. Samsung cases, but ignored the fact that those cases were not decided uniformly. Some countries sided with Apple, some with Samsung, and even within a country it changed depending on the Court.
MBH has also threatened to sue customers of FI. I question whether they would have a claim against a customer given that the customer isn't attempting to pass off the product, and isn't competing with MBH in anyway.
Even if MBH establishes some type of IP entitlement, what are the damages? I think there is an argument that MBH has damaged its own representations by posting as it has on this forum, which is probably another reason why larger companies who feel they are the victims of infringement don't behave the same way.
Now having said that, I'm not giving legal advice, I'm not MBH's lawyer, so they gotta do what they gotta do.
There is are clear jurisdictional issues; MBH is American, a lot of these other companies are not, and certainly some of their customers are not American.
MBH cited the Apple v. Samsung cases, but ignored the fact that those cases were not decided uniformly. Some countries sided with Apple, some with Samsung, and even within a country it changed depending on the Court.
MBH has also threatened to sue customers of FI. I question whether they would have a claim against a customer given that the customer isn't attempting to pass off the product, and isn't competing with MBH in anyway.
Even if MBH establishes some type of IP entitlement, what are the damages? I think there is an argument that MBH has damaged its own representations by posting as it has on this forum, which is probably another reason why larger companies who feel they are the victims of infringement don't behave the same way.
Now having said that, I'm not giving legal advice, I'm not MBH's lawyer, so they gotta do what they gotta do.
#221
Member
I think it's going to be very messy, and very expensive if MBH genuinely is going to pursue an IP claim against various other headers manufacturers.
There is are clear jurisdictional issues; MBH is American, a lot of these other companies are not, and certainly some of their customers are not American.
MBH cited the Apple v. Samsung cases, but ignored the fact that those cases were not decided uniformly. Some countries sided with Apple, some with Samsung, and even within a country it changed depending on the Court.
MBH has also threatened to sue customers of FI. I question whether they would have a claim against a customer given that the customer isn't attempting to pass off the product, and isn't competing with MBH in anyway.
Even if MBH establishes some type of IP entitlement, what are the damages? I think there is an argument that MBH has damaged its own representations by posting as it has on this forum, which is probably another reason why larger companies who feel they are the victims of infringement don't behave the same way.
Now having said that, I'm not giving legal advice, I'm not MBH's lawyer, so they gotta do what they gotta do.
There is are clear jurisdictional issues; MBH is American, a lot of these other companies are not, and certainly some of their customers are not American.
MBH cited the Apple v. Samsung cases, but ignored the fact that those cases were not decided uniformly. Some countries sided with Apple, some with Samsung, and even within a country it changed depending on the Court.
MBH has also threatened to sue customers of FI. I question whether they would have a claim against a customer given that the customer isn't attempting to pass off the product, and isn't competing with MBH in anyway.
Even if MBH establishes some type of IP entitlement, what are the damages? I think there is an argument that MBH has damaged its own representations by posting as it has on this forum, which is probably another reason why larger companies who feel they are the victims of infringement don't behave the same way.
Now having said that, I'm not giving legal advice, I'm not MBH's lawyer, so they gotta do what they gotta do.
I agree that there is no claim against the customers, nor will they be required to pull the headers off their cars or any such thing. I also agree that this would probably be pretty expensive to litigate and I'm not sure he'd ever recover enough to make it worth while. This is the exact reason that Rays never went after Rota... Despite them clearly infringing and offering a lesser product.
On second thought, SuperFastYo has a point. I'm not going to post any more legal analysis. This isn't the thread to be analyzing IP claims in a case that may or may not be filed.
Last edited by BadCompany; 07-05-2017 at 10:17 AM. Reason: Typo
#223
Super Member
Whether you guys like it or not, legal or not, "Chinese ripoffs" actually push technology forward. You make something new and exciting, well guess what? The Chinese will have that in a couple years so you better keep innovating or get dusted!
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C63fora2w1 (07-05-2017)
#224
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Los Angeles
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2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
What exactly is MBH supposed to "innovate" now? They already figured out the most efficient best route to get exhaust gasses out of the engine. What exactly is he supposed to do now that his design has been ripped off?
#225
Super Member
Improve operational efficiency and pass those cost savings to customers for a cheaper product. Just like we see with computers, phones, etc becoming more powerful yet cheaper every year.
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C63fora2w1 (07-05-2017)