skratch77

Coming from the guy that is yelling and screaming about how he got ripped off sounds a little biassed.

You are slandering Fi with zero to back up there welding or product.

glennhl

Guys, get over it, you own a very nice car and there aren't a lot of them. With that comes more expensive aftermarket parts. There are fewer sales to amortize the investment. Of course, the Chinese knockoffs don't have an investment, so that's just one reason they are less money. That and the labor rate and crappy materials cost a lot less.

If you want a good header for less money, then buy a Camaro.

Oh, and Skratch77, I think you meant to say that MBH was guilty of libel (written) not slander (speaking). And the internet is a very dangerous place. Just by writing bad things about MBH in this thread, aren't you exposing yourself to possible libel?

MBH motorsports

Problem is FI doesnt make these, Per my conversations with FI they are made in CHINA. Enjoy your 4th

skratch77

What have I said anything bad about his product?

He is saying there welds crack and are not good and not to buy there product.

glennhl

You don't have to say anything bad about his product. You can say bad things about him and it's possible slander. Write something bad about the person then it's possible libel. Like I said, the internet is a dangerous place. I doubt if anyone would sue you for what you wrote and most judges would throw it out if they did, but do you really want to expose yourself to that.

skratch77

I'm not following you can you quote what you are saying? Sue me for what?

MBH motorsports

I did not say there welds crack. In fact I know of no cases (yet) of a failed FI header on a C63. Bringing a copied product to market creates confusion. Where one is good and the other is sub-standard and sold for less. By the looks of the images shown it's easy to tell what one is sub-standard. I really hope you enjoy your headers when you get them, I truly do. However, you getting mad at me for pointing out facts with the FI headers feels like you got some buyers remorse.

skratch77

You did say that there flange will crack.I could care less but you are in an Fi thread saying these things.we know we bought China built headers.we don't need to read it in every thread from you

glennhl

You made the following statement about Mike of MBH:

"You are slandering Fi with zero to back up there welding or product."

That can be considered defaming Mike because you said he slandered someone when he didn't. He just stated facts.

C63fora2w1

Thank you for the endorsement of FI's product. It seems that your problem is that it looks similar to your product and the welds aren't as pretty as yours but do not know of a failure. That in of itself is good enough for me. Hey while your at it better file suit against IPE as well because they look similar to yours as well.

skratch77

Hold up hold up. He is now stating facts? When he has never seen or held the product in person and said there flanges will crack and then states there is no know Fi headers that failed yet as facts now?

He is going off a low resolution picture of the product and saying they will crack and fail.

Now if a 3rd party bought a set and did a welder test and found they cracked under normal heat and stress would be a different story. But he is posting in an Fi thread bad mouthing there product and saying it will crack and fail along with all the other things he said about the welds and product.

BLKROKT

Wait a second. You saying that glennhl said that you said that C63fora2w1 said that skratch77 said that Mike said that FI welds are ****, means that you maybe might not anti un-be liable not for slander too maybe not.

I'm reporting all of you to the authorities. For making me lose IQ points and hurting my feelings.

glennhl

That's not the point I was trying to make. I was just saying that you were defaming his name. It will be up to you to prove what you just wrote in a court of law. I'm just trying to help you, but do what you want. And good luck with the Chinese Knock-off.

glennhl

Thanks, I needed that!!! I know you will at least buy quality products and support the companies that actually invest into making our cars better.

Ambystom01

Damn, I really regret going to law school now that I know I can get the same information and be just as competent by reading a Wikipedia article.

IP law is a hell of a lot more complicated than you think. I would be interested in seeing what patent, if any, MBH has, and if their claim would stand up given it is a bunch of tubes and there's only so many ways to skin a cat.

Ambystom01

****, read the rest of the new posts. What a **** show.

glennhl

I'm surprised that as an attorney you didn't fill in the blanks.

Maybe it's about supporting vendors who invest in our cars. If all we support are Chinese knock-offs, then that's all we will have.

I worked 40 years in aerospace engineering, I have 12 patents, so I know a little about intellectual property but probably not as much as you do. IP is the heart of a technology company and they have to fight constantly to protect it. I feel sorry for MBH, that's all. It's just not right for another company to knock off what they developed. Developing a tri-y header to fit the very tight engine compartment that exists in the C63 is not trivial. And investing in the tooling and machinery and having the craftsman that can make good full penetration welds also is not cheap.

But then again, it's stuff like this that keeps you employed.

Ambystom01

I respect a company's right to protect their handiwork, and recognize the importance of doing so.

However, here, I don't know if they're protecting the fruits of their labor, or simply complaining about a legitimate competitor in a competitive market.

I don't see other companies that are victims of knockoffs going around making the same comments. I suppose because they know their product speaks for itself.

If MBH is convinced FI is garbage, I don't see why they're as nasty as they are; FI will get pushed out of the market if its products fail, and nobody will actually confuse the two.

glennhl

Fair enough, very good points. I'll be interested to see if the trade dress argument works for MBH. Sounds like you think it won't be enough to make a case. Thanks for the info.

Ambystom01

I think it's going to be very messy, and very expensive if MBH genuinely is going to pursue an IP claim against various other headers manufacturers.

There is are clear jurisdictional issues; MBH is American, a lot of these other companies are not, and certainly some of their customers are not American.

MBH cited the Apple v. Samsung cases, but ignored the fact that those cases were not decided uniformly. Some countries sided with Apple, some with Samsung, and even within a country it changed depending on the Court.

MBH has also threatened to sue customers of FI. I question whether they would have a claim against a customer given that the customer isn't attempting to pass off the product, and isn't competing with MBH in anyway.

Even if MBH establishes some type of IP entitlement, what are the damages? I think there is an argument that MBH has damaged its own representations by posting as it has on this forum, which is probably another reason why larger companies who feel they are the victims of infringement don't behave the same way.

Now having said that, I'm not giving legal advice, I'm not MBH's lawyer, so they gotta do what they gotta do.

BadCompany

How long have you been an attorney and where are you barred? I'm having trouble with where the facts you're relying on are coming from. I don't think there is a "clear" jurisdiction issue. Many foreign corporations are registered in the United States when they are doing the volume of business Fi does here. Plus there are long arm statutes to punish foreign corporations. Come on man. International Shoe, Volkswagen... That's first year law school stuff. US courts issue IP decisions against Chinese companies all the time (although they are often worthless because Chinese courts typically ignore the judgment). It doesn't really matter that they are selling outside the US. MBH could limit the trade dress claim in geographic scope. He never said he is going after other manufactures besides Fi (that I remember seeing). Apple v. Samsung isn't dispositive when it comes to trade dress claims - nor does it matter that different courts in the US are deciding cases different. He'd follow whatever the law is in the Circuit he is - if he is in the Ninth Circuit, who cares that the Second Circuits rules differently? And if he is in the Second, who cares about the Ninth? If there was a huge circuit split, then the SCOTUS would take writ and resolve it. There is a good body of trade dress law that MBH would rely on outside of Apple (and besides, I think Apple lost the trade dress portion of their claims anyway). Besides, I'm sure he just said the Apple case because it is recent and lay people might have heard about it. Damages are fairly easy. The Lanham Act allows for recovery of Fi's profits of the infringing product, any damages MBH can show, and the cost of the action. Depending on the facts, courts are even authorized to award treble damages. Good luck convincing any judge that MBH has damaged his reputation per this thread. The people posting here make up a very, very small percentage of buyers and MBH hasn't done anything particularly egregious - other than being angry that a company allegedly infringed on his intellectual property and commented on the welds of said company whose own website sings praise of how masterful its TIG welds are. Even if he didn't get monetary damages, he still could get an injunction (which is generally easier to obtain).

I agree that there is no claim against the customers, nor will they be required to pull the headers off their cars or any such thing. I also agree that this would probably be pretty expensive to litigate and I'm not sure he'd ever recover enough to make it worth while. This is the exact reason that Rays never went after Rota... Despite them clearly infringing and offering a lesser product.

On second thought, SuperFastYo has a point. I'm not going to post any more legal analysis. This isn't the thread to be analyzing IP claims in a case that may or may not be filed.

SuperFastYo

Oh good, this thread is back up! I showed up to work today thinking I was gonna be bored outta my mind this morning.

NotABaller

Whether you guys like it or not, legal or not, "Chinese ripoffs" actually push technology forward. You make something new and exciting, well guess what? The Chinese will have that in a couple years so you better keep innovating or get dusted!

BLKROKT

What exactly is MBH supposed to "innovate" now? They already figured out the most efficient best route to get exhaust gasses out of the engine. What exactly is he supposed to do now that his design has been ripped off?

NotABaller

Improve operational efficiency and pass those cost savings to customers for a cheaper product. Just like we see with computers, phones, etc becoming more powerful yet cheaper every year.