MBH Headers - Gains and Issues
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 61
Likes: 3
From: Denver, CO
2012 Mercedes C63 AMG
So just an update which adds even more confusion!
I was in north denver at a client and the dyno I previously used to do the baseline runs, custom tunes from Eurocharged (V7 custom header) and then final runs, had a few openings. SO...same dyno, same weather and temp, same gas in the tank, same tune, same engine temps.
Run 1 - 399 hp
Run 2 - 400 hp
Run 3 - 399 hp
Absolutely at a loss of what's going on and how I lost so much power within exactly seven days. Did the car "adjust" on it's own and if so, what the hell did it adjust and WHY? I've emailed Jerry and have been waiting for a reply. I've also emailed Kleeman in Colorado Springs to see if they could help.
Any suggestions or tips are welcome! ---- also, I am waiting for the test and tune night at Bandimiere to start in april. I still have all 5 tune files so I may try those with trap times but Im worried traction or driver error may influence those. With the amount of money and time and headache, I shouldve just gone the supercharger route from the start!
I was in north denver at a client and the dyno I previously used to do the baseline runs, custom tunes from Eurocharged (V7 custom header) and then final runs, had a few openings. SO...same dyno, same weather and temp, same gas in the tank, same tune, same engine temps.
Run 1 - 399 hp
Run 2 - 400 hp
Run 3 - 399 hp
Absolutely at a loss of what's going on and how I lost so much power within exactly seven days. Did the car "adjust" on it's own and if so, what the hell did it adjust and WHY? I've emailed Jerry and have been waiting for a reply. I've also emailed Kleeman in Colorado Springs to see if they could help.
Any suggestions or tips are welcome! ---- also, I am waiting for the test and tune night at Bandimiere to start in april. I still have all 5 tune files so I may try those with trap times but Im worried traction or driver error may influence those. With the amount of money and time and headache, I shouldve just gone the supercharger route from the start!
Last edited by dmd-amg-c63; Mar 23, 2019 at 12:44 AM.
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Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,175
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From: NY
2010 C63 2019 GLA45
On other cars, especially turbocharged, knock will do this. Once knock is detected, the ECU turns the timing way down and the result can be seen on the dyno.
I don't know the strategy with these cars, but a logging with a good logger that can view ignition timing, or a timing multiplier, could answer this.
In my Subaru, if I feel it's down on power, I connect the logger and took at the timing advance multiplier. The strategy there is that the ECU tries to advance the timing until its maxed out. As soon as there's knock, dials down the timing and looks for what happens next.
If there's no more additional knock tries to advance again. If there's additional, dials down big times, but not limp mode. With me, bad gas and high intake temperatures can cause this.
The thing with timing multiplier is that it's stored, meaning you don't need to drive and look. As soon as you connect, it's there for you to read.
I didn't look closely at the Xentry, because my car is stock, but I thought I saw a section that deals with knock.
Anyway, not directly related, but in my experience with the Subaru, if I added something that greatly increased performance and the tune didn't become slightly more conservative, I got knock and knew what I had to do.
I don't know the strategy with these cars, but a logging with a good logger that can view ignition timing, or a timing multiplier, could answer this.
In my Subaru, if I feel it's down on power, I connect the logger and took at the timing advance multiplier. The strategy there is that the ECU tries to advance the timing until its maxed out. As soon as there's knock, dials down the timing and looks for what happens next.
If there's no more additional knock tries to advance again. If there's additional, dials down big times, but not limp mode. With me, bad gas and high intake temperatures can cause this.
The thing with timing multiplier is that it's stored, meaning you don't need to drive and look. As soon as you connect, it's there for you to read.
I didn't look closely at the Xentry, because my car is stock, but I thought I saw a section that deals with knock.
Anyway, not directly related, but in my experience with the Subaru, if I added something that greatly increased performance and the tune didn't become slightly more conservative, I got knock and knew what I had to do.
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Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,217
Likes: 147
2012 c63 AMG, 2011 GLK 350, 2019 GLS 450
So just an update which adds even more confusion!
I was in north denver at a client and the dyno I previously used to do the baseline runs, custom tunes from Eurocharged (V7 custom header) and then final runs, had a few openings. SO...same dyno, same weather and temp, same gas in the tank, same tune, same engine temps.
Run 1 - 399 hp
Run 2 - 400 hp
Run 3 - 399 hp
Absolutely at a loss of what's going on and how I lost so much power within exactly seven days. Did the car "adjust" on it's own and if so, what the hell did it adjust and WHY? I've emailed Jerry and have been waiting for a reply. I've also emailed Kleeman in Colorado Springs to see if they could help.
Any suggestions or tips are welcome! ---- also, I am waiting for the test and tune night at Bandimiere to start in april. I still have all 5 tune files so I may try those with trap times but Im worried traction or driver error may influence those. With the amount of money and time and headache, I shouldve just gone the supercharger route from the start!
I was in north denver at a client and the dyno I previously used to do the baseline runs, custom tunes from Eurocharged (V7 custom header) and then final runs, had a few openings. SO...same dyno, same weather and temp, same gas in the tank, same tune, same engine temps.
Run 1 - 399 hp
Run 2 - 400 hp
Run 3 - 399 hp
Absolutely at a loss of what's going on and how I lost so much power within exactly seven days. Did the car "adjust" on it's own and if so, what the hell did it adjust and WHY? I've emailed Jerry and have been waiting for a reply. I've also emailed Kleeman in Colorado Springs to see if they could help.
Any suggestions or tips are welcome! ---- also, I am waiting for the test and tune night at Bandimiere to start in april. I still have all 5 tune files so I may try those with trap times but Im worried traction or driver error may influence those. With the amount of money and time and headache, I shouldve just gone the supercharger route from the start!
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,305
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From: Valley of the Sun, Arizona
C63, SL55, E55, CLS55, ML63, C55
have you looked at your long term fuel trims, if so what are they? Lets see if any fuel is being added or removed. Also just something to think about you are at like 6000ft elevation. There will be no good power numbers at that kind of elevation. However it is cold out up there so that should offset the elevation a little bit.
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Joined: Nov 2004
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2005 E55
Are you running row boxes? Try stock boxes without the extra filter in place. Row boxes on my car would put fuel trims at like 35 on each side and -2 to -3 with stock boxes.
Made a huge difference in throttle responce going back to stock boxes.
Made a huge difference in throttle responce going back to stock boxes.
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 61
Likes: 3
From: Denver, CO
2012 Mercedes C63 AMG
the Knock sensor would go off and reduce timing just by noise? And it wouldn’t throw a code to tell me that something is up with the engine and it’s reduced timing? No clue why it went down in horsepower.
No clue on corrected numbers, all I was concerned about was the change from baseline to after changes/install. Yes altitude sucks here so was only trying to analyze the actual Delta.
I’m going to put it on jacks and look to see if something is rubbing or hitting and thus, creating a fake knocking sound that the engine is picking up as true knocking and reducing the timing.
Should i I pick up a hp tuner so I can really analyze the data? All I have are dyno files from my genius that I can’t read and have sent to Jerry (still no response)
i know mbh headers are solid and so are Jerry’s tuning skills so there has to be something going on. But all these issues only came to light when I added headers and got it retuned. It ran perfect with V5 and resonator/2nd cat delete, but I got greedy and wanted more!
thank you for all the help!
No clue on corrected numbers, all I was concerned about was the change from baseline to after changes/install. Yes altitude sucks here so was only trying to analyze the actual Delta.
I’m going to put it on jacks and look to see if something is rubbing or hitting and thus, creating a fake knocking sound that the engine is picking up as true knocking and reducing the timing.
Should i I pick up a hp tuner so I can really analyze the data? All I have are dyno files from my genius that I can’t read and have sent to Jerry (still no response)
i know mbh headers are solid and so are Jerry’s tuning skills so there has to be something going on. But all these issues only came to light when I added headers and got it retuned. It ran perfect with V5 and resonator/2nd cat delete, but I got greedy and wanted more!
thank you for all the help!
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,768
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'10 C63
I’m telling you...replace those old O2 sensors and get your injectors cleaned/replaced and the hp should come up. It’s shocking how much more alive the car is with fresh injectors and O2 sensors. And I always used top tier gas.
Thread Starter
Junior Member
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From: Denver, CO
2012 Mercedes C63 AMG
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'10 C63
for O2 sensors I would get the Bosch OEM replacements. I got mine at Oreilly. They had a good warranty and when my headers fouled the O2s within a year they replaced them free. For injectors people seem to like the Bosch ones from RM European but i had 2 that were slightly leaky after 8k miles. I would get OEM ones or just have your current ones cleaned and serviced.
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 61
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From: Denver, CO
2012 Mercedes C63 AMG
for O2 sensors I would get the Bosch OEM replacements. I got mine at Oreilly. They had a good warranty and when my headers fouled the O2s within a year they replaced them free. For injectors people seem to like the Bosch ones from RM European but i had 2 that were slightly leaky after 8k miles. I would get OEM ones or just have your current ones cleaned and serviced.
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 61
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From: Denver, CO
2012 Mercedes C63 AMG
Yeah, I removed the mbh x-pipe and mid-section and customized the headers a little. Had a custom h-pipe built by mikes power pipe and put the stock resonator back in. All done at a local exhaust expert.
Didnt help much on the performance side, only slight increase but definitely gave me back a little hp and torque.
100% helped with the exhaust tone though! No longer sounds like a tuner car out of Japan.
Didnt help much on the performance side, only slight increase but definitely gave me back a little hp and torque.
100% helped with the exhaust tone though! No longer sounds like a tuner car out of Japan.
Thread Starter
Junior Member
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 61
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From: Denver, CO
2012 Mercedes C63 AMG
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From: SWF
2020GLC63
ever think about pulling the intake off to see if you have carbon build up or any other intake related issues causing lower power?
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2013 c63 amg dev pack
Do you still have a copy of the v5 file? I'd load it up and see how it feels.
