c63amgc

Question for those who frequently trackday their C63's.

What Pads do you opt for? I've found the stock pads disintegrate very quickly.

The car needs more front camber, how can this be achieved?

The facelift car also has temp issues and so cannot sustain more than a few laps at full chat. Ill give the cooling plate a go but is there anything else possible? 44O / BS kits are crazy in price.

I love driving the C63 on track but dont want to spend a Ton.

Ill only do 5/6 days a year.

What else do people change? PS fluid, billet idlers? LSD?

c63amgc

I didnt mention alignment did I. What are people running for a daily that does the odd track event? I find a bit of understeer/push mid fast corners. I think a touch more camber on front will sort out.

G_Money

http://www.bp-motorsport.com/?post_t...s&page_id=6925

Basically the 440 kit. They can be a little hard to deal with due to language barrier from what I heard, but 1 or 2 folks here on the forum have gotten the kit if you search around.

Diabolis

Brake pads - if your car is predominantly driven on the street, my personal choice is Endless MX-72 (IMHO the best jack-of-all-trades that will not fall apart with track use but still gives adequate bite for everyday street driving when cold). For predominantly track driving, the best pads I've ever had on mine were RB XR70 fronts and XT910 rears. I have a brand new set of the RBs that I don't need and was going to list for sale (I don't track the C63 nearly as much as I used to) if you're interested.

I haven't played with camber on the C63 any more than what the OEM adjustments allow. @BLKROKT has more experience in this area - I think the answer may be K-Mac camber kits, but I am not sure.

Oil temps - 44O kit. Not cheap but worth every penny.

Oil changes - every two track days at the most (the oil experiences both sustained high temps and so much mechanical shear that its ability to protect the motor afterwards is severely diminished). Same interval for the brake fluid - full flush after two events, with a bleed after the events in between. Transmission and LSD fluids every year.

Mazspeed

How much do you have on the pads, are they new? If he doesn’t take them I will.

Mazspeed

Running k-Mac and full coil overs kw v3 and they are fantastic. Make sure you Camber is -0.5 less then the front. I’m running 1.9 front and 1.3 rear. For track use you can run more front and rear.

BLKROKT

KW Clubsports with the adjustable camber plates front, UPD camber arms rear. -3*F/-2.5*R

Jasonoff

No probs getting -3° up front with just the clubsports camber plates?

How much gap do you have? I think from the measurements I have taken just under 1/2" would be perfect for arm alignment.

BLKROKT

I’m in process of taking off the front KMACs as they slip under load. I think the camber plate alone will still get me to -3* as it’s not yet maxed out.

Gap where?

Jasonoff

Top of the tire to the fender. I know not accurate, but a good ballpark.

I could measure the center of the wheel instead.

BLKROKT

My tires run inside my fenders by maybe 3/4”. There’s about another 1/2” to the fender at the closest point.

Way too low, scraping everywhere. I need to go up 1.5” in front and close to 2.5” in the rear. Car was just slammed. That’s part of the reason it’s taking so long to get the car out of the garage. Repairs and reconfiguration.

Jasonoff

I used my airbag jack at the front jackpoint on my 4post and got the best rollcenter measurments I could using string. It it actually seems like stock height is optimal but that may prevent getting the desired negative camber.

I haven't had much luck finding actual data though. Not like other platforms.

c63amgc

Thanks for all the advice. Dont see many c63 on track in europe so info is scarce.

I need to get the car on the rig and see what its got stock for alignment. From the eye very little front camber. I had conti on the front and wrecked the shoulder at silverstone GP in a single day. The feathering is def dominantly outside half of the tyre.

Im not after a full track setup, just a bit better life out of everything. Ill only do 5-6 days a year.

Interesting comment about the kmacs moving. Is that running street tyres?

My cheapest point may be to go with the "crash bolts" and just add 0.3 deg and leave it as is and hope for the best. I don't want to go coilover.

I have to say the heat issues is my biggest disappointment in the c63. It was a F1 safety car! And they use them at my local Mercedes world for track experiences all day long. They must modify them! Feel like I've been misled with its abilities.

c63amgc

Good point about the oil change. I was planning on the same. Do you DIY the inbetween changes then go merc to keep the service book intanct? What is diy oil change like on the c63?

I did read a thread about someone changing the oil to a different type and noticing an improvement to temps on track.

BLKROKT

KMACs are moving with R-compound tires. Could be user error, but haven’t been able to resolve one way or another.

All the corporate C63s that see track time get the 44O kit (F1 Safety, Driving Academy, etc).

Look up the “Keeping Your Cool” thread for more tips on managing heat.

Diabolis

Correction - the rears are XT960, not XT910.

The 44O package is the what Affalterbach designed and built for the F1 Medical Car after experiencing the oil overheating issue. It arrived in two crates directly from Affalterbach and it is by far the most complete kit I have ever seen in my life, down to the little clips for routing the oil lines. The caveat is that in addition to the physical installation (which you may be able to do yourself if you are mechanically inclined), a part of the procedure is to also disable the auxiliary fan in the passenger wheel well as it is removed so the car won't have a fit if ever tries to turn it on, which I believe requires DAS Xentry.

Brand new, never opened. Fronts are shrink-wrapped and rears are in a box.

+1.

I happen to have a good relationship with my dealer (the shop foreman is a personal friend) and only he and one other very competent mechanic are allowed to work on the car, both of whom know that it requires extra steps - so while these days I usually get them to change the oil, I know that it gets done right. When I was frequently tracking the C63 I used to do it myself. As for the service records, I was easily exceeding their recommended service intervals by at least 400% but also tracking the car, so it would have been a moot point had there been a catastrophic engine failure during the warranty period.

Regarding the reported lower oil temperatures with higher viscosity oils, that is true - but unfortunately it is a result of faulty reasoning, which actually causes more wear to the motor, not less. The primary means of cooling the engine internals is oil flow. Thicker oil flows more slowly and removes LESS heat from the engine, leaving various hot spots inside. The oil temperature sender is at the pickup, so yes, because the oil removes less heat form the motor, the oil temperature itself is going to be lower while the temperature of the various bearings and other internal engine bits is going to be higher. This is the opposite of what you want!

MINIz guy

What I know from the BMW world, KMAC camber plates aren't often recommended because of slipping. It isn't user error or wrong installation.

BLKROKT

I was talking about the KMAC adjustable bushings. I’m using KW camber plates.

With that said, I had no problems with the KMAC camber plates when I used them for 2 seasons.

Mazspeed

Yeah we have yet to have any problems with Kmac camber plates. The only issue is they don’t allow for more than I think 3° of Camber I think. But we’ve had no issues with slipping and there are things that you could do to make sure that it doesn’t happen.

K-Mac

Do advise that the W204 front top strut mount plates provide up to 3.5 degrees (extra) negative Camber (also can adjust for extra Positive Caster) in the pursuit of front row of the grid lap times.


While the lower arm Camber adjustable bushings add up to 1.25 degrees extra. Making a total of 4.75 degrees (and not to forget extra 60mm in front track width).

Re the clamping down of the strut plates - all that is needed is 23ft / lbs and designed so strut tower will crumple before plates will move

Always constant / ongoing developments: Example with the lower arm Camber and Caster adjustable bushes (this K-MAC design now in production since 1993) and looking back, reviewing any problems has always come down to either:

1. A bolt not fully tight - we resolved this by inventing a fail safe lock system.

2. A bush being overloaded when "initial adjustment" made. Bushes for long term reliability are pressed in tight. Instructions stipulate not excess force when adjusting tires sideways...

Anything and everything can be improved so (#2) we have resolved by making them bulletproof. Now no matter what the load, centers cannot separate as now"one integral unit"

Our actual experience of manufacturing "Performance Bushings" dates back longer than any other company (1964). Quality is ensured by "in-house" manufacture. Allowing both total control over components and also actual elastomers used. Plus the ability for "rapid / ongoing" improvements.

Front Caster adjustable bushings (for the forward facing thrust arms) the culmination of long term R &D has resolved in a design breakthrough here also.

Now the advantage of "steel spherical / Mono ball design" in these forward facing bushes - to eliminate the OEM soft rubber, oil and air voided bushes.

Which results in a dramatic improvement to brake and steering response.

BUT WITHOUT THE DOWNSIDE OF SPHERICAL BEARINGS...... with their wafer thin teflon liners that has always plagued the industry, by soon pounding out with resultant looseness and subsequent noise.

K-MAC design breakthrough allows for having a massive two and a half times both for the "load and shock absorption area" when compared to Spherical bearings.

ALSO COMBINES SEPARATE, PRECISE, SINGLE WRENCH CASTER ADJUSTMENT FOR THE 1st. TIME...... to compensate for both the new Camber facility and also correctly resolving steering pull, improving high speed control, better turn in,

Note: To complete the W204 suspension updates also manufactured are Rear Camber (and extra Toe) Bushings. Rear uprated Bushings for the 6 multi link arms (less twist, flex, loss of traction) especialy when applying power to lane change, overtake.

Also just released rear uprated subframe bushings (includes bush extraction tools, so no sourcing of special tools required)......


Kevin

c63amgc

Thanks for the advice.

can I ask what wheels / tyre sizes are being used and how many days you are getting?

Since I posted this thread I decided to buy a z4m to run as a track car but that has been sold and still fancy a few days a year so the c63 which I still own is back in the picture. Did a day at di Thruxton and disintegrated the rears before lunch. I was lighting the rear up a bit but nothin insane.

The front shoulders were also done for after half a day. PS4s tyres with camber maxed out including the crash bolts.

I think for the c to be viable I need at least 4 days out of a set of tyres rather than half! Anyone achieve this?

Diabolis

If you're killing PS4s tires in half a day, you've way over-driving the car. By "Lighting the rear up a bit" you're destroying them by definition. As for the fronts, the PS4s are street tires... if you are wearing out the inner shoulders, you have too much negative camber in the front. No street tire can possibly provide the level of grip where the lateral loads exceed ~1.5g and you need the -2.5 to -3.5 degrees of camber. If you are wearing out the outer shoulders, you're just rolling over the sidewall because you're over-driving the car and/or your front pressures are too low.

The C63 is a 4,000lb car, so by driving it like you would an MX-5 you're going to destroy whatever tires you put on it. It is not an issue with the tires - dial it down a little and they'll last a lot longer. Adjust the camber back to what it needs to be, learn how to feel what the car is doing underneath you and through the steering wheel and adjust your driving style accordingly. Be gentle with the throttle and stop lighting up the rears, and enter the corners slower so the car doesn't understeer. Either that or get 500tw all-season tires that will slide all over the place (and possibly put you in the wall) but will last you longer.

GarlicBread

Question: Notice engine oil temps after completed lap that was actually not so flat out.

Not sure what the hell "stage 2" is because I didn't graduate from the Need for Speed academy.

I imagine no oil cooler because 133 celsius is like 270-280 in the land of freedom so....just curious.

K-Mac

Re “Front Camber maxed out including the crash bolts”.

Crash bolts only allow one offset position and a miniscule .3 of one degree !!

You need serious adjustment on Track days to increase negative Camber / reduce understeer.

K-MAC front W204 C63 AMG kit #502616K now allows up to 2 degrees “extra Neg Camber” (or Positive) and up to 40mm extra track width. While the Caster adjustable bushes eliminate the OEM soft rubber and air voided bushings. Replacing with Monoball / 2 Axis bushes which significantly improve “Braking and Steering response”. Fast adjust single wrench. Ultimate - direct on align rack under load.

This front kit dramatically reducing understeer - in the pursuit of hitting those corner apexes every time and allowing to go deeper into the corners with improved traction and braking response. With the aim of front row of the grid lap times !



Kevin