95gsrturbo

I've searched and found a few articles that are a bit outdated but still informative nonetheless

https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...tube-dyno.html

But as information changes over the years especially with new methods of tuning does anyone have a comparison chart of 4-2-1 vs 4 to 1 vs tri-Y headers for the M156 with a more modern flash tune

I know flash tunes aren't ideal but I'm also not looking to grab every last HP.

djr48312

At a high level on the C63's. The 4 into 1 with merge collector and near equal lengths resulted in about 10rwhp over the 4 into 2 into 1 or Try-Y's and more torque ( ~45rwhp ) . 4 to 2 and 1 and Tri-Y's performed similarly ( ~35rwhp ), somewhere around 10rwhp less than a true full length header.

Shorties are not a real "header", and net around 20rwhp. These are rough numbers, but carry the jist of the information.

95gsrturbo

Would this be before it after a tune?

Would the tuner/flash tune be able to tune a better AFR and therefore even better #s safer headers some the car can breathe better ?

deadlyvt

That’s odd in the link you showed the tri y outperformed the 4 to 1 style collector by a fair amount. I have seen a few tri y vs 4 to 1 dyno comparisons on the same vehicle (6.0L ls2 corvette) and a 5.0 fox body and both of them had a similar result slightly more top end (like 6k rpms) on the 4 to 1 collector header. And more mid range and low end torque on the tri y

BLKROKT

Pretty sure the tri-Y has been proven to outperform the others. At a high level. But they all perform within the same margin of error so who cares.

If you’re going with a standard flash tune just get what fits in your budget, is made with quality materials and has good customer support.

There’s plenty of info here. They’re bent pieces of pipe, nothing has changed, there’s no new technology to be had.

95gsrturbo

100% right they are bent pieces of pipe.

But some searching shows that firing order on some cars can make a difference in the style which is why I ask.

For my application and use it will make no difference.

I'm asking for knowledge, discussion, and growth of the community rather than "What mods should I do first?" Or "buying a 2009 what should I look for?"

95gsrturbo

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-into-1-s.html

BLKROKT

You’re asking for knowledge, discussion and growth... trying to discuss a technology that’s over a century old and which have about 5 options for our cars, all which perform basically exactly the same. Okay.
MBH
American Racing
whatever Shardul is selling
whatever VRP is selling
the eBay stuff (OBX and Becker mainly)

They’re all going to perform basically the same, install the same, and are made out of roughly the same material (stainless pipe).

No “information has changed over the years”. They’re all the same aside from some routing, pipe diameter, and collecter styles which make exactly zero difference in relation to your question.

Nobody is putting together a comparison chart for you. These are your choices and they’re all basically the same. If you do a search, plenty of reviews are here already. Plenty that people probably don’t feel like posting all over again, but here’s a synopsis - they’re all loud, they all produce the same power on a flash tune, they are all a bich to install.

There is no difference installing one over another, aside from fanboys on each side telling you one thing or another. That’s not productive.

Get the one that fits your budget best and be done with it.

Good luck

djr48312

Very good discussion with varying opinions.

VektorPerforman

There are all kinds of variations, but unfortunately, squat for quantitative data on 'best'. Really 'best' for $599 ebay headers are not going to be the same for 'best' $8K headers. BLKROKT hit the nail on the head, most of the good ones work well, so pick one and move on. There is at least enough review feedback to support that you really can't make a bad choice here.

Although, I as well wonder what 'best' performance means here. I've yet to find a header (4-1 or tri-y) that actually has the correct collector firing order, and find myself wondering what kind of power is being left on the table because of that. Based on the variations in quality and design of the top contenders, probably not much, but really, no one actually knows. I suspect speculation to follow here.

FWIW, I just ordered a ARH set of headers. I'd love to say I'm going to fix the firing order on the bank with them out of order, but I'll likely just install them. My plate is already too full with many other projects and this C63 is my personal play thing, not a development mule. I will however be adding to the data already out there by providing before (100% stock), after header install, and after header install w/tune, dyno plots. I'm fortunate in that I have a dyno cell to play with 200' from my desk.

95gsrturbo

Perfect example.... Why pay 2500-3k for the ARH when the Shardul is 1200 if they are all the same?

BLKROKT

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95gsrturbo

Perfect example.... Why pay 2500-3k for the ARH when the Shardul is 1200 if they are all the same?

Slightly better quality all around - welds, material (type and thickness of stainless), fit and finish, where they’re made (USA vs China or wherever), more optimized shape, customer post-sale support, etc.

Probably the biggest cost differences come from the labor (location + hand-made vs machine or super low-cost slave labor) and sunk R&D costs which were initially borne by MBH and ARH in their designs, which the others then just copied. MBH and ARH headers will likely outlast the car they’re attached to. The others maybe notsomuch...

If you’re not chasing every last bit of hp, it comes down to budget. And your tolerance for Chinese made rip-off headers which may not be perfect but will probably fit and perform just fine.

hachiroku

Shardul's rebranded PLM headers are far from best design in comparison to the competition. Sure it has solid build quality, but its design is more of a mid length header than a true long tube header. Long tube headers are ideal for power production. Not all headers are created equal, but I do agree that you're really pulling strings between 4-2-1 and 4-1 long tubes. They both make great power but yes, it would be great to have a header shootout. Only issue is, swapping headers on any C or E chassis is a huge pain in the ***.

Panzerbiscuit

I have no problem paying a little extra for a quality product, that comes with good customer support.
I splurged on some MBH headers, and dealing with Mike was relatively easy and straight forward. Only issue is, I didn't get a tracking number with my package which I thought was a bit strange...

I definitely didn't want to go down the "cheap" header option, and chuck on some X-Force/De fillipo Chinese headers, as I have heard some horror stories from the Holden/Ford guys over here with the X-Force headers blowing welds and requiring major modification to fit.

VektorPerforman

Again, BLKROKT calls it. We all have our own criteria of prioritized checkboxes for the products we pick.

I've been designing performance headers for over 10 years, have a relationship with ARH (as a dealer too; they have good customer service and support), had best feedback from tuners in regards to the ARH, and based on my experience feel it's one of the better designs out there. I reached out to other manufacturers as well with questions as well, but ARH was the clear choice... for me.

Jasonoff

Wasn't current design due to space constraints?

VektorPerforman

I won't know until I get them in my hands and on the car

Panzerbiscuit

ARH never even crossed my radar, never heard of them to be honest. Only heard of them AFTER I purchased my MBH headers, which is always the case. If I had heard of them prior to my purchase, I would have probably gone with ARH in hindsight, as they are a little cheaper than MBH(not that price was a factor) while still being made in the USA. The kicker for me was what I have heard about their customer support. Personally I think it's very disappointing that a company can ship a ~$4.5k product(with taxes/duties and currency conversions) with no tracking number, or notification that they have shipped it.

Personally I don't think their will be any significant gains between MBH or ARH headers with everything else being equal...not that I have any evidence to substantiate this opinion.

VictoryRoadPerformance

Willing to bet weve sold more M156 headers than anyone at this point We are offering the "shardul headers" For $1100, They are a lower grade than our VRP Brand headers, But if people literally just want cheap then ok. VRP Brand Carry a warranty, The others do not. We dropped MBH due to lead times and non existent communication from the owner. If you want High end headers get ARH.

The Machinist

What I don’t get, is where they get off charging 8k for a set of “good” headers.

I priced out the materials for a set of headers, and I tried to be as liberal as possible:

20 pcs total 2” 321 stainless U bend (mandrel) (probably too many parts, but 20 pcs gives enough curve to make each primary turn more than 360 degrees) ~$50 each full retail. $1000

40 hours, overpaying a “good” welder $100/hr. (I am a (very) qualified machinist and I don’t even make anywhere near that) $4000

$1000 for ancillary expenses (welding rod, welding gas, electrical expenses, and plasma cut manifold flanges) -again probably too much budgeted.

$6000 total. I overblew the expenses big time. I also specced out with 321 .065” thick stainless, which has a ****load of titanium in the alloy. Pretty much the best header material known to man.

Most of the options are not using 321, are not paying their welders $100/hr, are not paying full retail for supplies, and are not taking 40 hours to weld their products. (I would because I’m a **** welder. That’s why I am a machinist.) Where does the 5-8k figure come from? I just don’t see the value.

Conversely, I wouldn’t pay more than $500 for a set of Chinese headers. In fact, I wouldn’t buy them at all.

MBH motorsports

The bull**** lies that comes out of you is breathtaking. How anyone on this planet cant see though your lies is beyond understanding. You got dumped by us for trying to go around me and contacted my business partner. Not to mention you then started selling copies of our headers. Then you sent the copies of our headers to China to be copied. Lets not forget your long list if lies and deception, when you reached out to me for a conversation. It was agreed upon that you were going to change the design of the headers after the first batch. THAT WAS A LIE. I reached back to you and heard nothing. I kept my cool thinking you had just a little integrity, but I was wrong you have zero. You didnt hold up to your end of an agreement and then started fielding questions about our product that want even released on our Instagram. Not to mention, Phil had the audacity to then reach out to me looking for a set of downpipes. Like I would do any business with that turd ever again. Might I also add shortly after our business dealings were dissolved Phil accused my 2 year old son of using his credit card! Who the F in there right might would do that?.. Phil Latialle.
Its amazing that you are calling the Shardul headers a lower grade to the ones you sell. I put your headers in my hand a few weeks back and I can tell you, those who live in glass houses should not through stones. Tell us why yours are better? I can tall you why mine are the best. Could you tell why yours are at least better than someone else? I'd betting you cant.

sventastic82

shardul

iTrader: (1)

Once again BS statements from Phil at VRP.
He is so insure he will block people who sell my headers on the C63 amg group.

AKnight55

hachiroku

this is like Weistec vs KirkerlandHaus(Steve).

i'll stay out of commenting on either situation, but for what its worth, MBH has awesome build quality.