63 Motorsports Preproduction Camshafts
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 258
Likes: 20
From: Andover, MA
2007 e63 estate, 1998 ITB golf, ITE scirocco (sold to a collector in Japan)
how do you know about the longevity of the adjuster plates? is there evidence? i don't find any on their website.
love my w211 e63 wagon--i even have nightmares about it failing! but, i don't want to be sold some things that cost 3000$ (including work) that just give me a slightly better throttle response. i want things that let me keep my car until i die! (i am 57)
i've changed the head bolts. used lots of liquid moly cam lubricants (stopped any clicking at start up). change my oil. (i've had the upper oil pan changed 3X and it still leaks...going in next week.) i never rev over 2.7k before oil is above 80C. what do i need to do to keep my 156?
love my w211 e63 wagon--i even have nightmares about it failing! but, i don't want to be sold some things that cost 3000$ (including work) that just give me a slightly better throttle response. i want things that let me keep my car until i die! (i am 57)
i've changed the head bolts. used lots of liquid moly cam lubricants (stopped any clicking at start up). change my oil. (i've had the upper oil pan changed 3X and it still leaks...going in next week.) i never rev over 2.7k before oil is above 80C. what do i need to do to keep my 156?
Senior Member
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 274
Likes: 166
From: Perth,WA
C63 AMG
how do you know about the longevity of the adjuster plates? is there evidence? i don't find any on their website.
love my w211 e63 wagon--i even have nightmares about it failing! but, i don't want to be sold some things that cost 3000$ (including work) that just give me a slightly better throttle response. i want things that let me keep my car until i die! (i am 57)
i've changed the head bolts. used lots of liquid moly cam lubricants (stopped any clicking at start up). change my oil. (i've had the upper oil pan changed 3X and it still leaks...going in next week.) i never rev over 2.7k before oil is above 80C. what do i need to do to keep my 156?
love my w211 e63 wagon--i even have nightmares about it failing! but, i don't want to be sold some things that cost 3000$ (including work) that just give me a slightly better throttle response. i want things that let me keep my car until i die! (i am 57)
i've changed the head bolts. used lots of liquid moly cam lubricants (stopped any clicking at start up). change my oil. (i've had the upper oil pan changed 3X and it still leaks...going in next week.) i never rev over 2.7k before oil is above 80C. what do i need to do to keep my 156?
there is plenty of evidence provided by 63motorsports to prove that their products, and products similar to theirs have addressed one of the weak points of the M156.
Their adjusters are significantly stronger than OEM, and offer reduced internal friction and oiling capabilities compared to an OEM adjuster.
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2023 E63S Wagon
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2013 c63 Magnuson SCed
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MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2011
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From: Kitchener, ON
2010 C63 AMG
Member
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 182
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2009 c63
The Road Race I cam lists for $2199 and is said to Dyno: 392 WHP and 364 Lb.Ft to the wheels on an unmodified ECU and unmodified C63 with the MCT transmission..
Stock C63 with no tuning and no mods dynos 355-370rwhp. So that's a 20-25rwhp gain and also some torque? Is the Road Race II another 15-25 rwhp over the Road Race I cam? Is the Road Race III cam another 20-30 rwhp over the Road Race II cam?
Stock C63 with no tuning and no mods dynos 355-370rwhp. So that's a 20-25rwhp gain and also some torque? Is the Road Race II another 15-25 rwhp over the Road Race I cam? Is the Road Race III cam another 20-30 rwhp over the Road Race II cam?
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 258
Likes: 20
From: Andover, MA
2007 e63 estate, 1998 ITB golf, ITE scirocco (sold to a collector in Japan)
Hey mate,
there is plenty of evidence provided by 63motorsports to prove that their products, and products similar to theirs have addressed one of the weak points of the M156.
Their adjusters are significantly stronger than OEM, and offer reduced internal friction and oiling capabilities compared to an OEM adjuster.
there is plenty of evidence provided by 63motorsports to prove that their products, and products similar to theirs have addressed one of the weak points of the M156.
Their adjusters are significantly stronger than OEM, and offer reduced internal friction and oiling capabilities compared to an OEM adjuster.
and, BTW, the "catch can" they offer is not a catch can, it's a remote oil filter. were it a true catch can, it would be vented to atmosphere. --store the oil below the filter and let the positive pressure vent. at least that's what i think a catch can is. it's what everyone does with race engines. no?
Last edited by sciroccor; Jun 21, 2023 at 07:56 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,351
Likes: 1,677
From: Kitchener, ON
2010 C63 AMG
and, BTW, the "catch can" they offer is not a catch can, it's a remote oil filter. were it a true catch can, it would be vented to atmosphere. --store the oil below the filter and let the positive pressure vent. at least that's what i think a catch can is. it's what everyone does with race engines. no?
It's placed between the PCV outlet and IM inlet to "catch" oil that would have otherwise entered the IM to get burned through the engine. There's nothing stopping you from venting the can to atmosphere but some say the M156 requires vacuum in the crankcase.
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 258
Likes: 20
From: Andover, MA
2007 e63 estate, 1998 ITB golf, ITE scirocco (sold to a collector in Japan)
You may need to do a bit more research on what a catch can is and how it works.
It's placed between the PCV outlet and IM inlet to "catch" oil that would have otherwise entered the IM to get burned through the engine. There's nothing stopping you from venting the can to atmosphere but some say the M156 requires vacuum in the crankcase.
It's placed between the PCV outlet and IM inlet to "catch" oil that would have otherwise entered the IM to get burned through the engine. There's nothing stopping you from venting the can to atmosphere but some say the M156 requires vacuum in the crankcase.
are you saying that there's vacuum in the oil pan?? if so, that's a completely different story! so, the pcv (which is a one way valve) never works?? it's just a locked diaphragm? i don't think AMG is that stupid. maybe you have a much more detailed explanation?
i am sorry if i am naive.
Senior Member
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 274
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From: Perth,WA
C63 AMG
i went on their site and did not find many data. they make great points and i believe they are making great products. still, though, they say they went on a hell ride for 10kmiles or so. my car has 13X that. it runs super well, mostly. i just don't see the data backing up the claims. of course reduced coefficient of friction is better. better oil distribution is better. harder lifters and cams are better. but how much better?? i am not arguing with you so don't get bent out of shape, ok? i am a scientist. i like data and i like reasons for changing data.
and, BTW, the "catch can" they offer is not a catch can, it's a remote oil filter. were it a true catch can, it would be vented to atmosphere. --store the oil below the filter and let the positive pressure vent. at least that's what i think a catch can is. it's what everyone does with race engines. no?
and, BTW, the "catch can" they offer is not a catch can, it's a remote oil filter. were it a true catch can, it would be vented to atmosphere. --store the oil below the filter and let the positive pressure vent. at least that's what i think a catch can is. it's what everyone does with race engines. no?
I have their plates installed on my vehicle. I send 63motorsports oil analysis reports after every oil change to monitor wear metals in my oil. That way they can observe any changes over time in a real world car, under real world conditions. So far everything is performing as it should. I have ~12,000kms on my car with the updated parts, which isnt what id call a large or sufficiently good enough sample size. But its better than nothing
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 258
Likes: 20
From: Andover, MA
2007 e63 estate, 1998 ITB golf, ITE scirocco (sold to a collector in Japan)
Not sure why i would get bent out of shape, seeing as i don't have a horse in this race. 63motorsports has provided, on numerous occasions the differences in hardness between the oem adjuster plates, and their own plates. I think they can chime in and explain with more accuracy and a lot more succinctly then i ever could. Alternatively, do some google fu and look at their website, Facebook and instagram. Or, reach out and ask them the questions you want answered.
I have their plates installed on my vehicle. I send 63motorsports oil analysis reports after every oil change to monitor wear metals in my oil. That way they can observe any changes over time in a real world car, under real world conditions. So far everything is performing as it should. I have ~12,000kms on my car with the updated parts, which isnt what id call a large or sufficiently good enough sample size. But its better than nothing
I have their plates installed on my vehicle. I send 63motorsports oil analysis reports after every oil change to monitor wear metals in my oil. That way they can observe any changes over time in a real world car, under real world conditions. So far everything is performing as it should. I have ~12,000kms on my car with the updated parts, which isnt what id call a large or sufficiently good enough sample size. But its better than nothing
i am glad that there are people that love this motor. i had mine in for an oil leak. they gave me an AMG GLA45. while it was quick and handled pretty well, it was uncivilized and loud. i got back into my e63 wagon and it was blissful; quiet, fast and comfortable. the m156 motor is perfect for me. smooth and soft until you want it not to be.
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Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 53
Likes: 33
2009 SL63 AMG
I am a scientist by education, and an EBE (engineer by experience). Your demands for data are valid but you're being blind to the most obvious evidence: you can spout off all day long about your methods and treatments and additives but until you pull the cam covers and have a real good look/inspection of the actual wear or pitting given your mileage and then the cams to check the lifters then you don't know the truth. I find many of the people who have the most to say in automotive forums have very clean fingers. Typing is easy and clean, get yer hands filthy tuning wrenches and you'll be better for it. And you'll earn your beers. Cheers!
Last edited by KLinNBC; Jun 21, 2023 at 09:23 PM.
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 258
Likes: 20
From: Andover, MA
2007 e63 estate, 1998 ITB golf, ITE scirocco (sold to a collector in Japan)
anyway, many of us are doubters. i wish we were not. i wish all of us told the truth, continually. many of us, though, have been "burnt" by deceivers. and, in retrospect, those of us who have been in that situation would like to get rid of that fear and would ask for some veracity in the claimants. it's easy to find "snake oil" ideas for the m156 motor. do you believe? all of them? i don't. there are many companies that i do believe, though. m156 is one. i wouldn't recommend them, though, because there're very few data. their logic is right. they seem to be smart people.
in the end, though, "if you don't trust the company don't buy it." makes sense. BUT, how do you establish trust? it's through tests and data and some sort of random belief. i choose the first two and would meet the owners for the magic part.
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 258
Likes: 20
From: Andover, MA
2007 e63 estate, 1998 ITB golf, ITE scirocco (sold to a collector in Japan)
I am a scientist by education, and an EBE (engineer by experience). Your demands for data are valid but you're being blind to the most obvious evidence: you can spout off all day long about your methods and treatments and additives but until you pull the cam covers and have a real good look/inspection of the actual wear or pitting given your mileage and then the cams to check the lifters then you don't know the truth. I find many of the people who have the most to say in automotive forums have very clean fingers. Typing is easy and clean, get yer hands filthy tuning wrenches and you'll be better for it. And you'll earn your beers. Cheers!
Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 53
Likes: 33
2009 SL63 AMG
My apologies, because you stated your car was "going in" for the third oil pan I assumed you pay other people to do the work. Leaking oil pans in my experience are always due to a lack of fastidious and careful method. Had the dealer do the plastic pan in our Ford Edge Sport (2.7 TT, H&R springs and B6 Bilstein's, like a Cayenne turbo for $100k less) under warranty twice and then because I was just fed up with the inconvenience I did it myself. No more leak.
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 258
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From: Andover, MA
2007 e63 estate, 1998 ITB golf, ITE scirocco (sold to a collector in Japan)
it turns out it wasn't the oil pan (i had that done with my pro rally buddies..and myself.) it is that the PCV valve is broken. i talked to one of the indies (an ice racing champion) and he told me that i'd be insane to try to replace it without taking of the intake manifold. i believe him. (yay!!)
i don't have a garage anymore. (i am franticly moving!!!) anyway, i am going to pay my friend (the ice guy) to do it. he'll change the injectors for free, also. only parts that i get from FCP. friends are good!
so is beer.
i don't have a garage anymore. (i am franticly moving!!!) anyway, i am going to pay my friend (the ice guy) to do it. he'll change the injectors for free, also. only parts that i get from FCP. friends are good!
so is beer.
Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 53
Likes: 33
2009 SL63 AMG
63 Motorsports sells both the adjuster lock plates and the cam regrinds primarily on the basis of increased hardness and optimized wear. The RR I cam profile includes greater duration but that's a corollary of reduced ramp that will be kinder to lifters. The wear/pitting and failure of cams and lifters, respectively, is a well documented and proven problem with the M156. Providing increased hardness in contact surfaces is an obvious and useful solution to this. Data or not, these are physical facts and you're questioning of them because of a lack of supplied data is indicative of a cynical and combative comment. There are very few options for keeping an M156 in top form, my first-hand experience with 63 Motorsports tells me they are an invaluable resource.
Last edited by KLinNBC; Jun 21, 2023 at 10:00 PM.
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,351
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From: Kitchener, ON
2010 C63 AMG
i don't think i need to. a catch can is not a separator. it completely replaces the PCV valve. it vents the crankcase to environment and catches blow off. by mass, it lets the oil fall to the bottom of the can. the positive pressure (gauge pressure) vents to atmosphere. no oil, no filling of the intake manifold with air that wasn't measured by the MAFs gets into the intake manifold. it's, for sure, dirtier than PCV valves but performance it better.
are you saying that there's vacuum in the oil pan?? if so, that's a completely different story! so, the pcv (which is a one way valve) never works?? it's just a locked diaphragm? i don't think AMG is that stupid. maybe you have a much more detailed explanation?
i am sorry if i am naive.
are you saying that there's vacuum in the oil pan?? if so, that's a completely different story! so, the pcv (which is a one way valve) never works?? it's just a locked diaphragm? i don't think AMG is that stupid. maybe you have a much more detailed explanation?
i am sorry if i am naive.
A catch can does not replace the PCV. Positive pressure from the crankcase is still relieved through the valve. Instead of routing the positive pressure full of oil vapor directly into the intake, it's piped into a device that removes oil from the vapor and caught into a can before routing oilless air back into the intake manifold. It still separates oil from the air and collects said oil into a can that needs to be emptied.
An air oil separator (AOS) does exactly the same thing as a catch can but instead of collecting oil into a can, it routes the collected oil back into the engine. More advanced AOS route hot coolant through the body to heat up the oil it catches before routing it back to the engine.
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 258
Likes: 20
From: Andover, MA
2007 e63 estate, 1998 ITB golf, ITE scirocco (sold to a collector in Japan)
63 Motorsports sells both the adjuster lock plates and the cam regrinds primarily on the basis of increased hardness and optimized wear. The RR I cam profile includes greater duration but that's a corollary of reduced ramp that will be kinder to lifters. The wear/pitting and failure of cams and lifters, respectively, is a well documented and proven problem with the M156. Providing increased hardness in contact surfaces is an obvious and useful solution to this. Data or not, these are physical facts and you're questioning of them because of a lack of supplied data is indicative of a cynical and combative comment. There are very few options for keeping an M156 in top form, my first-hand experience with 63 Motorsports tells me they are a valuable resource.
your agency for them is suspect.
anyway, your "first hand experience with 63 Motorsports" which indicates, in some unverified method, that they are "valuable" does not make them better or worse; it's only hearsay from a person that has no evidence. true? (do you have evidence?) this becomes tiresome in that you don't give evidence or data.
i am well aware of the problems with the top end of the m156. the documentation of them does not mean that it can be fixed. can you fix the problem of republican vs democrat?? it's easy to point at a problem. not so easy to fix it. and, when you do, fix it, if you can, it, probably, won't be adjudged as real fix. same with the top end. you can scream and yell about how you've fixed it all; but, still there are no data. and, the reason that there are no data is because the plates probably last forever. in the end, i believe.
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Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 486
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2012 C63, GL63, 1989 300CE
for sure! ((btw, don't you use apostrophes?) if so, why not?)
anyway, many of us are doubters. i wish we were not. i wish all of us told the truth, continually. many of us, though, have been "burnt" by deceivers. and, in retrospect, those of us who have been in that situation would like to get rid of that fear and would ask for some veracity in the claimants. it's easy to find "snake oil" ideas for the m156 motor. do you believe? all of them? i don't. there are many companies that i do believe, though. m156 is one. i wouldn't recommend them, though, because there're very few data. their logic is right. they seem to be smart people.
in the end, though, "if you don't trust the company don't buy it." makes sense. BUT, how do you establish trust? it's through tests and data and some sort of random belief. i choose the first two and would meet the owners for the magic part.
anyway, many of us are doubters. i wish we were not. i wish all of us told the truth, continually. many of us, though, have been "burnt" by deceivers. and, in retrospect, those of us who have been in that situation would like to get rid of that fear and would ask for some veracity in the claimants. it's easy to find "snake oil" ideas for the m156 motor. do you believe? all of them? i don't. there are many companies that i do believe, though. m156 is one. i wouldn't recommend them, though, because there're very few data. their logic is right. they seem to be smart people.
in the end, though, "if you don't trust the company don't buy it." makes sense. BUT, how do you establish trust? it's through tests and data and some sort of random belief. i choose the first two and would meet the owners for the magic part.
Trust is a choice, as you’ve stated. Do you believe they are spewing truth - then you trust them. If you don’t then, you won’t.
Capitalize the first letter of the word in a sentence, ever?
