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new c63 owner here. Every car or motorcycle I had I liked to make as much reliable and bulletproof as possible (if not done so by the manufacturer already). This especially considers the C63, as I plan to keep the car for as long as possible. Now, to me it seems the M156 is more or less a reliable engine, but there are some weak areas that should be addressed. Some fixes seems permanent (like headbolts or cams adjusters - aftermarket ones), some falls more into "maintanance". Anyway, for most of those typicals issues, the fix is more or less clear to me:
- headbolts
- tappets
- camshafts
- camshaft adjusters
- oil breather
- injectors
etc.
The only one I was not able to figure out yet is the intake manifold. Seems that the zink-aluminium-magnesium intake manifold deteriorates over time, with corrosion being something that will sooner or later touch all M156 out there. Based on what I have found, the new OEM units are currently harder and harder to find and I am afraid that at some point the supply will run out. The aftermarket currently offers only the internal plate where the throttle bodies are located, but the uppers, lower and mid metal parts are not available (correct me if I'm wrong). Now, I am aware that putting the supercharger could be a solution but in case I would like to keep it original, the only fixes seems the "band-aid" ones, like sanding, epoxy, tig welding, paiting etc to slow the corrosion down.
Now, I was wondering about making some steps towards building an aftermarket manifold myself: first breaking a good one down into separate metal pieces, 3d scanning it, measuring, correcting the design perhaps where needed and then either making an aluminum casting or a plastic mold. By doing this I could make this particular part reliable - and also perhaps I address some issues the original one has.
Now, I was wondering if there would be any market for aftermarket intake manifold - I mean just the metal parts, as I assume the electronics and other pieces would come from the old OEM-one?
Also, to the people that already have some experience with manifold itself, are there any particular issues except the corrosion that could be addressed on the aftermarket one? Are all the pieces easily removable - I think some of them are permanently glued into the manifold body? Would be grateful for any input to push my small project a bit forward.
2012 P31 C63 Coupe Trackrat, 2019 GLE63S Coupe Beast
Do a search of the forum please. This has been discussed recently. There is an aftermarket option in the works.
Also, some of your questions such as whether the manifold comes apart into its constituent pieces easily, demonstrates that you have done little to no work or research. Nobody is going to create a whole new personalized answer and walk you through all that, when it already exists ad nauseum. The answers you seek are easily found already in this forum, through Google, in videos, and countless other resources. I suggest you start there and educate yourself before diving into a project like this totally blind.
I get that you’re excited, but you’re like the 10-thousandth person to have these exact thoughts. The forum is chock-full of the research and work of others before you. Read it.
Do a search of the forum please. This has been discussed recently. There is an aftermarket option in the works.
Also, some of your questions such as whether the manifold comes apart into its constituent pieces easily, demonstrates that you have done little to no work or research. Nobody is going to create a whole new personalized answer and walk you through all that, when it already exists ad nauseum. The answers you seek are easily found already in this forum, through Google, in videos, and countless other resources. I suggest you start there and educate yourself before diving into a project like this totally blind.
I get that you’re excited, but you’re like the 10-thousandth person to have these exact thoughts. The forum is chock-full of the research and work of others before you. Read it.
seriously though... I got my BS and read thru the forums twice! I know almost everything about my car now.
Ok, so my small project has been on hold for some time, but hopefully this is going to change soon. I have recently managed to obtain an intake manifold, that will serve me as a base for next steps.
The plan is as follows:
1) Get a brand new or mint condition intake manifold
2) Disassemble the manifold into separate pieces
3) Use the pieces as casting models - made in a material, that will not corrode
4) Machine the castings - milling, drilling, holes, threads etc.
5) Replicate items like plastic pieces, gaskets etc that were either damaged or might be "wear items" for the manifold in future
6) Reassemble the whole thing - using new (castings, gaskets, etc) and old, but good parts
So far, I have managed to obtain an intake manifold, that was used previously in a car for a brief period of time, then removed. Seems I got lucky, because the manifold shows just some slight oil residue and the metal is in perfect condition, with no signs of corrosion. Currently I am disassembling the whole thing - the lower part was relatively easy, the top one is a bit more difficult as the pieces are stuck together. I don't want to manhandle it and as the pieces seems to be connected with some kind of a silicone/glue, I will try to dissolve it first before trying something heavier. I will add an update then the whole thing is in pieces - I have identified 6 separate castings so far, but I might be wrong.
BTW, I am not sure, what is the current situation with the manifolds availability? The production date on mine says late 2023, but the casting markings for metal pieces say 2014. I wonder if they still produce those or just using some old stock/old castings.
Stage two of my small project is now almost completed.
Just as a reminder - the idea is to obtain an intake manifold, disassemble it and then make copies of the castings using a metal that will not corrode - possibly also addressing some other issues. So far I have been successful with buying a manifold in very good condition and today I have almost succeeded in disassembling it. Just as I though, there are six casting in total. Good news is that there is just one gasket that possibly needs to be copied - the rest of the manifold is held by sealant.
The disassembly process was long, especially for the top part. The pieces are held together using screws (these are easy) and sealant (this one is tough). Using sealant remover and some persuasion I have finally managed to separate the pieces - I had to be careful not to cause any damage.
Unfortunately, I also run into a problem. The plastic flaps seems to be permanently fixed to the internal casting of the manifold. I was hoping for some bolts or fasteners - so I can easily remove them, now I have to figure a way to:
a) remove them from the casting causing as little damage as possible - also
b) investigate a possibility of copying them
c) find a way of re-attaching them afterwards.
Candidly, those vacuum-actuated flaps are rarely a problem so it might not be the best use of your time to try and separate them.
After the throttle body plate, the next problem area (and biggest PITA) is dealing with the misc. fittings as there are limited alternatives for some and no alternatives for others today.
If you were able to figure out a suite of replacement fittings for the lower and upper clam shells, that would be a huge help to the M156 community.
I spend some time today and yesterday thinking about the project. I spoke to a company that specialize in metal castings - they told me sand casting is the way to go, as it is relatively inexpensive and easy technique and the original parts could serve as models. What I also see as a bright side, is that the castings will require very little machining afterwards - there are mostly just openings for injectors and other parts and threaded holes for bolts.
As much as I don't want to mess around with the plastic flaps, I am afraid there is no other way around and here is why. When replacing injectors in my C63 I noticed signs of corrosion on the threads on top of the manifold and a lot of fine dust - even though my original manifold (not the one I am disassembling - the one that is still on car) still seems in good condition. And as the top half on the manifold is where the fuel rail is mounted - I want this place to be solid. But this top half actually consist of three castings, one of which has the flaps permanently attached. I would need to remove the flaps in order to have a model for the casting - and as long as they are out, I think I could try to replicate them as well. And in the long run, if I ever decide to produce more sets for other people wanting to upgrade their manifolds - this would make their life 10x easier, as the top part would already come pre-assembled.
As for the flaps, I think I have figured out a way of removing them - I will use soldering iron with temperature slightly above the melting point of the plastic and slowly work my way around the places, where they are mounted. Not the best or the quickest way, but rather safe. I will try it this weekend perhaps.
@HLG600 you mentioned replacement fittings for the lower and upper clam shells - by this do you mean gaskets and different rubber pieces? Or those various other elements, like vacuum-operated parts, etc?
From what I have seen so far based on my manifold and by watching Tasos videos I think I have more or less a "roadmap" of what I would like to cover with this project:
- all metal parts (6 castings) should be made from aluminium - this will solve both corrosion and threads wear issues (biggest ones)
- replicating the plastic flaps (it's not that I want to, but it seems I have to)
- replicating the gasket between throttle mid-plates (this is the only one I found - the rest is just a type of sealant) - would be great, as I think it is not available from anywhere
- perhaps replacing the plastic nipple to the PVC valve with something more durable - nice to have
- I assume there are no big issues with throttle bodies or any other vacuum/electical parts on the manifold so I am not focusing on those parts - but feel free to correct me if I am wrong
From: Land of mountains, cheese, chocolate and watches
12' W204 C63 AMG coupe "T-Rex", 12' W451 Smart Fortwo Pulse (99' W202 C43 AMG + Ultima Can-Am sold)
Anyone tried installing ITBs? Maybe over the top of an idea but it could solve most if not all problems. Yeah, I assume there would be some electronics to figure out, but....
Thanks! And regarding the colour options, this is exactly the idea that I have in mind - to anodize the parts and not just the top piece as it is on stock manifold - but all of them.
I think an oil catch can is a great mode and a must have - thinking about getting one myself. There is a known issue of the injectors being stuck open and I think the oil might actually play a big role in this. I have recently replaced my injectors with new ones and was surprised when I took them out after about 30 kilometers - they were already dirty with oil:0 I believe as the oil collects inside the manifold and the air blows through it, it creates a tornado of oil particles that over some time will clog everything. So anything that will keep this oil from getting in the intake definitely won't hurt!
Thanks! And regarding the colour options, this is exactly the idea that I have in mind - to anodize the parts and not just the top piece as it is on stock manifold - but all of them.
I think an oil catch can is a great mode and a must have - thinking about getting one myself. There is a known issue of the injectors being stuck open and I think the oil might actually play a big role in this. I have recently replaced my injectors with new ones and was surprised when I took them out after about 30 kilometers - they were already dirty with oil:0 I believe as the oil collects inside the manifold and the air blows through it, it creates a tornado of oil particles that over some time will clog everything. So anything that will keep this oil from getting in the intake definitely won't hurt!
If I could buy a Mercedes with an M156 new, an oil catch would be the first thing I would do. It's a trifle, but it gets rid of so many problems with that engine.
Keeping the oil level perfect ( dipstick problem ) would be the second thing I would do.
It seems that by doing these 2 simple things, then 80% of the engine problems would not happen.
Correct, the top of manifold consist of three casts pieces:
Number 1 is the one you see on the top
Number 2 is inside number 1 and is attached by three screws and sealant. Also, it is super hard to get out - there is no good place to grab it or get a leverage and I was scared, that using excessive force can cause the parts to crack. In the end I have separated them using a lot of Locktite 7200 sealant remover and pieces of rope, that I run through the intake ports to pull it out using rachet straps. This piece also have flaps permanently attached to it.
Number 3 is the bottom - attached through multiple screws and sealant. As the access is easier here, it is also easier to separate it from part number 1 - still, the sealant bond is pretty strong. The black lines around the element 3 and intake ports is the sealant - there is no gasket there. The only gasket is used around the throttle body plate.
Correct, the top of manifold consist of three casts pieces:
Number 1 is the one you see on the top
Number 2 is inside number 1 and is attached by three screws and sealant. Also, it is super hard to get out - there is no good place to grab it or get a leverage and I was scared, that using excessive force can cause the parts to crack. In the end I have separated them using a lot of Locktite 7200 sealant remover and pieces of rope, that I run through the intake ports to pull it out using rachet straps. This piece also have flaps permanently attached to it.
Number 3 is the bottom - attached through multiple screws and sealant. As the access is easier here, it is also easier to separate it from part number 1 - still, the sealant bond is pretty strong. The black lines around the element 3 and intake ports is the sealant - there is no gasket there. The only gasket is used around the throttle body plate.
Yes, I divided the same way you did, except parts 1 and 2 are between each other.
I have an uneven fit between part 2 and part 1, I am attaching pictures, I don't know if it needs to be corrected somehow or if it is acceptable at this point.
I bought REINZ 70-31414-20 sealant to glue everything back together. Loose fit Normal fit
P.S. I am willing to help you with the realization of your idea, how can I contact you?
Ouch, that is some residue inside - makes me wonder, how the one I have on my car looks like.
I have a similar gap on my piece, maybe a bit smaller - but I think this shouldn't be of any concern. The fitment of the parts is achieved through screws, "ridges" and "grooves" on both parts (its better to see the pictures below to understand) and I believe the sealant is there mostly to ensure the connection between the channels is secure and airtight. On one of the pictures below you can see some remaining sealant left, this gives an idea on how it was attached. But even then, as we still have the flaps I think EVEN if there is some slight leak between the channels, it makes no difference whatsoever. The secure, airtight connection is more important between parts 1 and 3, as there it would cause a vacuum leak. But as far as it goes for 1 and 2, I wouldn't bother, the effort of separating the pieces, removing the old sealant and putting it back together - if we only talk about a "maintenance" is not worth the effort.
You can PM me and we will exchange some contact data As is goes with my project, I think the biggest issue now are the plastic flaps. The initial idea I had was:
- I manufacture the castings and seals
- existing manifold is disassembled and is partially reused with new castings - parts like throttle bodies, vacuum lines etc
- upgraded manifold is ready to be used
Now unfortunately it seems not that easy, as the flaps are permanently connected to the part 2 and part 2 itself is difficult to get out. I will need to figure out a way of making copies of the flaps, so there will be no need to remove and reuse the old ones. But for this I need some time to check, what are my options. 3d scanning and printing the part would be one of the options - but I need to do more research on available materials, I am just concerned it can deteriorate over time and might cause other issues. And I am afraid that preparing an injection mold for this part might cost more than my car I need to check my options here - in case you have some experience, feel free to share
Anyone tried installing ITBs? Maybe over the top of an idea but it could solve most if not all problems. Yeah, I assume there would be some electronics to figure out, but....
My pipe dream is to one day figure out a way to retrofit some s65 ITBs or something like they sell at redux
An ITB sounds + M156 sounds and maybe a manual swap are what dreams are made of
Some small updates on status of the project, as I haven't been posting lately.
First of all, big shout-out to all of you who reached me through a PM - you really keep my motivation high and thanks to you I truly feel that this small project can really contribute to M156 community
And as for the current status:
- I've been trying to disassemble the plastic flaps from the last casting, this is a long and painful process. I need to be extra careful not to damage anything and I am using a soldering iron to heat up each mounting point and slowly reshape it so later I can remove the whole assembly. Progress has been very slow here and it doesn't help that I don't have a lot of free time lately due to my "regular" job. Some of you suggested to just reuse the old ones, but to me it is unfortunately not an option - reusing old ones means the whole top of the manifold has to be disassembled (a lot of fuss based on my experience) and also that at least one piece will stay as made from an inferior (as far as longevity goes) material. I also though about how can I re-produce the parts - so far it seems the 3D scanning it and then using CNC machine would be best option
- today, I contacted a company that said they will be able to re-create a gasket, that goes inside, between the throttle body plate. I saw it is offered as a part of a aluminum throttle body plate kit, but unavailable otherwise. I was initially thinking about re-using the original ones, as they seems pretty sturdy - but as I liked the idea of having all new parts it the kit, I will see what the quoted price will be and try to produce a batch
- recently, I've been also thinking about somehow trying to include a catch can into the design, thus making it not only an upgrade in terms of material, but also design. This however I have just came up with recently and I don't really have any specific ideas in mind.
Jesus Christ, finally - I managed to get the flaps out. Took me about 7 hours total - each mounting point I had to slowly reshape using soldering iron. Initially I hoped I will be able to reuse the assembly afterwards by shaping the plastic back into initial shape, but sadly seem not really a case anymore - as I had to remove some of the plastic.
The flaps assembly consist of total of 6 different plastic pieces. I will now check, what are the options for replicating it - currently, I consider 3d scanning and CNC machining parts from plastic or producing a mold for injection. Maybe I will use a mix of both, I guess it all depends on cost.
I am pretty unhappy that I need to cover this in my project as well, as I was not aware of any issues with the flaps and replicating it seems a lot of effort - but as I want to replicate the whole assembly in aluminum and flaps are permanently attached to one of the casting, sadly I do not see any other option. In the upcoming week I also expect a quote on replicating the internal gasket - hope the cost will not terrify me
Some small update, as I got some good news and bad news
Good news number 1 is that I have an idea on how to replicate the flaps - combination of metal CNC and castings, again cost will increase but I think this is the only reasonable option.
Good news number 2 is that finally I got a quote for replicating the large gasket that goes between the throttle plate and internal plate. The cost is quite high (but not outrageous - I would say ok), and also within the budget - assuming I will order at least 50 pieces. I will order it as soon as I get a confirmation on castings.
Bad news however is that I talked to a company that does metal castings and they told me there might be a problem with replicating it - due to size of the parts, thin walls and metal shrinkage, the replicated parts most probably will have different size (approx. 1-2%) when compared with originals when original parts are used as a template. I will try contacting a different (more experienced) company to see what are my options or if there is any way to mitigate the problem.
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but in case I would like to keep it original, the only fixes seems the "band-aid" ones, like sanding, epoxy, tig welding, paiting etc to slow the corrosion down.
I think I have more or less a "roadmap" of what I would like to cover with this project:
