brad65ford

Sorry for the odd questions but it seems the Audi 4.0 twin turbo out of the box is one hell of a beast compared to the 4.0 TT Mercedes motor. Hell coming from a heavier S8 Plus it just felt stronger/faster then my c63s does both stock form with only 50hp difference. Makes be believe the Audi was underrated. What is the difference of these motors and why is the Audi so much more powerful? Assuming Mercedes has over engineered these 4.0l what is the max power these bottom ends can handling? Correct me if I'm wrong the trans is so far the weak link of the w205 amg plate form? Fingers crossed im going to be happy once I start modding since i will admit im not impressed with the stock power right now.

AV1

Go drive the new E63S and then come back and comment

They are almost exactly the same configuration and may even share the same turbos between one variant or another, so you can expect the same power outputs from these power plants.

Remember the Audis have AWD so they're going to be quicker from a dig in a straight line vs a C63 or other RWD AMG's (stock vs stock).

bgm130

I believe the larger Audi models use twin scroll and larger turbos. The S8 and RS7 for sure use them. Maybe the s8 felt faster as the AWD launches you like a rocket. Coming from my S4 which could easily do 1.6 second 60 ft you feel like your launched out of a cannon.
The E63s is going to be another example of this. It's got the same motor but larger twin scroll turbos and puts out over 150 more HP.
As far as the trams seems like stage 2 has been pretty safe so that is an additional 100-150 HP. The few people that have upgraded the turbos is where there are reliability isssues.
If you are not happy with the power of the car why did you get it? Seems like a expensive car to get if you were not loving it.
go stage 2 and I think you should feel better. Car is a rocket on the highway

brad65ford

Thanks guys. In short trust me i'm not comparing the awd launch feeling between the two. Mostly from a roll there seems to be a great difference in pulling power. The 4.0l Audi motor is in other Audi's figured its impressive for being in the heaviest (s8). Regarding not purchasing if I wasn't happy, well that's hard to say since i surely did punch it and test most of its ability from two different dealers with sale mans in the cars. I sure as hell didn't drive like I do by myself, today i did some pulls upstairs from 70mph and up and its feels like a its missing hp and tq upstairs (doggy). Didn't know Audi uses twin scroll which most like is the difference. Congrats to Audi for making one hell of a nasty stock 4.0L twin turbo setup while Merc's got one over on the sound q. The reason i purchase this car was to mod it to max, just don't know how much it can take. Looking at it more it seems as though Merc 4.0l isn't up to what Audi created imho. Sucks Audi only offers the 4.0 in large size cars like the rs7 and s8. Yes buyers remorse. Sorry this is from a guy that had a Hellcat too, everything feels slow lol.

auditoamg

What build date and model did you test?
Whats your car?
There were a few production runs that had turbo boost issues....

brad65ford

2017 c63s, need to find the build date. Where do i find this?

Really doubt its that, i've had more performance cars they one can count. Don't get me wrong its strong just not as strong as the 4.0l in an audi stock for stock as i was hoping for. Its just impressive what audi achieved with their 4.0l, hell their stock block can see 1000 hp, just a stage 2 (down pipes and tune can get you 700 whp) one would think our car's should be able to achieve that to so i'm assuming its the design of the engine or turbo's which is the different? I know its not apple to apples, just confused as its the same liter and similar output stock so moding would yield similar gains but this is not the case it seems. If this is a true statement one would say the Audi 4.0l is a better engineered motor or better plate form for modifying.

auditoamg

Inside your door panel, I believe.

brad65ford

5/17 it says.

AlexZTuned

You're comparing the lowest output AMG 4.0L to the highest output Audi 4.0L. A better comparison for example would be:

Audi S6 4.0L V8 vs C63S 4.0L V8 (single scroll turbos)
Audi RS6/RS7 4.0L vs E63S/S63S 4.0L V8 (twin scroll turbos)

The C63S M177 engine can make 600-650HP with full bolt ons before maxing turbos out, but the E63S has already made 725HP and 755 ft-lbs torque with just an ECU tune by RENNtech (stock downpipes, etc.).


PP-Performance already ran a 10.9 with a their Stage 1 ECU tune with the E63S:


So maybe you should upgrade to an E63S/S63S?

brad65ford

That is very cool, so its just turbo difference then? Bottom end is the same? If so thats promising since it would be a turbo swap and tuning one would think to achieve similar peroformance as the E class 63s. Didn't want to purchase the E63s don't like the look of it as much as the C also like the smallness of the C63s. I did have the S8 Plus which was a beast but it felt to big of a car.

bgm130

I think the only thing similar is the actual motor. other then that the cars are much differnt. the transmission is brand new. its 9 speed, AWD, and can even change to RWD for a drift mode. They def beefed it up to handle to power. so if you want to make the eclass HP you are going to have issues with the Stock C6s trans. just ask the member "guilty" on here.

AlexZTuned

You could theoretically swap the twin scroll turbos and manifolds to the C63S, although I don't know if anyone has attempted this yet (the E63S just recently started deliveries).

See this thread for the differences: https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-c63s-...fferences.html

Press release: http://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSi...l?oid=14320400

New peak of performance: 4.0-litre V8 biturbo engine with twin-scroll turbochargers

The versatile AMG 4.0-litre twin-turbo V8 engine in the E 63 S 4MATIC+ takes peak performance to a new level at 450 kW (612 hp). Maximum torque attains a new best value of 850 Nm. It is available over a broad engine speed range of 2500 to 4500 rpm and so provides a feeling of effortless superiority in every accelerator pedal position. A sprint from zero to 100 km/h is absolved in 3.4 seconds, and this dynamic acceleration only ends at the governed top speed of 250 km/h (with AMG Driver's package: 300 km/h). The E 63 4MATIC+ is rated at 420 kW (571 hp) and has 750 Nm of torque. This variant accelerates to 100 km/h in 3.5 seconds.

The advanced AMG 4.0-litre V8 biturbo engine utilises well-proven twin turbocharging, with the two chargers not located outside on the cylinder banks, but rather between them in the V of the cylinders. The advantages of the "hot inner V" are a compact engine design, an immediate response from the twin-scroll turbochargers and low exhaust gas emissions thanks to optimum air flow for the close-coupled catalytic converters.

Two twin-scroll turbochargers are deployed for the first time to boost performance and improve responsiveness further. The housing is divided into two parallel flow passages. Combined with two separate exhaust ducts in the exhaust manifold, this makes it possible to control the exhaust gases on the turbine wheel separately. The exhaust gas from the first and fourth cylinders of the cylinder bank is fed into one duct and exhaust gas from the second and third cylinders to the other duct. The aim is to prevent the individual cylinders from having mutually adverse effects on the gas cycle. This reduces the exhaust gas back pressure and improves gas exchange.

The results are increased output due to improved cylinder charge with fresh mixture, more torque at low revs and very immediate response times.

Other engine measures include new pistons, an optimised air intake and charge air cooling, as well as extensive software developments. Spray-guided direct petrol injection with piezo injectors, the all-aluminium crankcase, the four-valve-per-cylinder design with camshaft adjustment, air-water charge air cooling, alternator management, the ECO start/stop function and the gliding mode have all been retained. To sum up, the eight-cylinder engine thrills with its exceptional power delivery and powerful acceleration in all engine speed ranges combined with maximum efficiency for low consumption and emission values.

Please do a search, there are plenty of aftermarket options to make 700 HP - 800 HP with the C63S. See RENNTech, Manhart, Brabus, PP-Performance, Eurocharged, Pure Turbos, etc. I'm intentionally leaving out a few popular tuners here in the states here because I can't endorse their workmanship.

Keep in mind that the power/torque has been limited to the transmission as it's rated up to 1000 NM stock (738 ft-lbs), so once you reach those torque levels and beyond, you will more than likely need to look into transmission upgrades.

brad65ford

Wow thanks Alex, seems the new 4.0l they are using in the E class is pretty nasty and on par with Audi's (finally). Good question if the parts will be able to be swapped, wondering how different the C63's would deliever power with larger turbo vs twin scroll. Seems low 600's rwhp would stay safe regarding our trans then so down pipe , intake and agressive tuning is pretty much all the trans well take then? Once you upgrade turbo's is were you'll start seeing other issues? Its like the old c63 all over again, the trans can't handle what the bottom end can take.

Been following Pure's upgraded turbo thread. Would love to be at 650 rwhp with my c63s. https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-c63s-...yno-slips.html

AV1

Do a search Alex on you tube, it has already been done there's a matt selenite grey coupe running around with OEM manifolds from the new E63 mill with BG EFR turbos outputting around 800hp.

LOL do you "get it" yet ?? your queries were answered in the first couple of responses should have been obvious right from the beginning you were comparing apples to bananas with the vehicles in question and their respective power train set ups...hopefully it's all clear now, good luck with your future power modding as mentioned be mindful of the transmissions limitations

brad65ford

Yes i do, seems the twin scroll as well as other steps Audi and Merc has done on the higher end 4.0l motors are down right awesome.

AV1

Yes indeed

Stage 1 tuned E63S with only a modest increase in power and torque from stock are already running 10's over the 1/4 mile...

Imagine with substantial upgrades !!!

Keep in mind these (along with the Audis) are AWD.

You guys with C63's need to be putting effort into more traction, that's the limiting factor for this platform if you want to improve 'quickness' because even stock there's already a major loss in traction, only on higher speed rolls can you hook it all up.

brad65ford

even from roll races I've seen they aren't major impressive. Haven't seen any videos yet of a turbo upgrades c63s pulling power yet.

AV1

You need to search more, there are lots of such vids going around

Even some members on here have posted vids, I especially love the one from GUILTY pulling away from a Lambo Huracan (if I remember the model correctly) and that's from a dig as well not a rolling drag !!! although his C63S is not stock

brad65ford

Kick a$@ looking forward in seeing with our little bottom end can do in. Regarding searching I can't tell you how many hours of youtube searching i've done. Believe i've watched just about every damn c63s video. Tough since so many c63 (6.2) videos are mixed in. Honestly there isn't many upgraded turbos c63s out there .. yet.

Yiruma

Just work on increasing traction and I believe Weistec offers a transmission upgrade that allows the transmission to handle 1000+HP.

Actually just work through Weistec for most of your upgrades since they're more in your alley anyways.

AV1

Not knocking but just going by reviews of vehicles they've modified and it's a definite hit and miss with them...

Just recently read up on a M156 modded 204 series 63 here in Australia which received a so called bullet proof trans from them and it gave up almost immediately after install, it's not the first complaint from customers with their mods either.

I'd say make sure you've got the warranty/replacement deal/s in writing before proceeding, especially if your getting hardware sent over all the way to other Countries.