Who's Upgraded their Turbos
03-19-2018, 02:22 PM
#101
Interesting, the way I see it looking at the graph it would seem that with this upgrade the engine would be noticeably more sluggish compared to stock from 0 right up to 3800rpm and that's at WOT as it's run on the dyno, part throttle street driving would be very noticeably worse than stock to this point, this could definitely use a quicker responding turbo or twin scroll set up if you wanted similar or better than stock response to the mid range band.
Beyond 4000rpm is where it comes into its own again at WOT application, this upgrade would be good for and suit track or drag strip more than a streeter.
Beyond 4000rpm is where it comes into its own again at WOT application, this upgrade would be good for and suit track or drag strip more than a streeter.
03-19-2018, 06:00 PM
#103
Senior Member
Interesting, the way I see it looking at the graph it would seem that with this upgrade the engine would be noticeably more sluggish compared to stock from 0 right up to 3800rpm and that's at WOT as it's run on the dyno, part throttle street driving would be very noticeably worse than stock to this point, this could definitely use a quicker responding turbo or twin scroll set up if you wanted similar or better than stock response to the mid range band.
Beyond 4000rpm is where it comes into its own again at WOT application, this upgrade would be good for and suit track or drag strip more than a streeter.
Beyond 4000rpm is where it comes into its own again at WOT application, this upgrade would be good for and suit track or drag strip more than a streeter.
03-19-2018, 08:57 PM
#104
MBWorld Fanatic!
Interesting, the way I see it looking at the graph it would seem that with this upgrade the engine would be noticeably more sluggish compared to stock from 0 right up to 3800rpm and that's at WOT as it's run on the dyno, part throttle street driving would be very noticeably worse than stock to this point, this could definitely use a quicker responding turbo or twin scroll set up if you wanted similar or better than stock response to the mid range band.
Beyond 4000rpm is where it comes into its own again at WOT application, this upgrade would be good for and suit track or drag strip more than a streeter.
Beyond 4000rpm is where it comes into its own again at WOT application, this upgrade would be good for and suit track or drag strip more than a streeter.
Last edited by AlexZTuned; 03-19-2018 at 09:00 PM.
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MBzW205 (03-22-2018)
03-19-2018, 10:43 PM
#105
Drive this car tuned with stock turbos and you'll realize the last thing you need is more torque below 4k. Tuned peak torque hits so hard down low (3k or so rpm), you can barely get in it without lighting up the tires (I swapped in 305's just to get a semblance of traction in 1-3 gears). Twin-scroll turbos are intriguing, but they add even more torque down low. That's something more desirable when you have AWD (ala E63S) and can hook in lower gears, but with RWD you're making traction problems even worse. Maybe you can throw on some R-Comps or DR's and get away with it. Personally, I think a compressor upgrade only would be a better option if you're not going for huge power. Maintain most of the down low torque, but still benefit with top end gains. Once you throw on a larger turbine wheel, that's when you get lag (though much better top end). I'd be curious to see how Pure Stage 1 compressor wheel stacks up to the GTC/GTR turbo which has a larger compressor wheel as well.
03-19-2018, 11:41 PM
#106
MBWorld Fanatic!
Drive this car tuned with stock turbos and you'll realize the last thing you need is more torque below 4k. Tuned peak torque hits so hard down low (3k or so rpm), you can barely get in it without lighting up the tires (I swapped in 305's just to get a semblance of traction in 1-3 gears). Twin-scroll turbos are intriguing, but they add even more torque down low. That's something more desirable when you have AWD (ala E63S) and can hook in lower gears, but with RWD you're making traction problems even worse. Maybe you can throw on some R-Comps or DR's and get away with it. Personally, I think a compressor upgrade only would be a better option if you're not going for huge power. Maintain most of the down low torque, but still benefit with top end gains. Once you throw on a larger turbine wheel, that's when you get lag (though much better top end). I'd be curious to see how Pure Stage 1 compressor wheel stacks up to the GTC/GTR turbo which has a larger compressor wheel as well.
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MBzW205 (03-22-2018)
03-21-2018, 02:07 AM
#108
Something to keep in mind - the guys at Eurocharged didn't know the whole reason I wanted the dyno overlay was to share it with the forum. They didn't go WOT until you see that big spike in the dyno chart I attached.
Not to state the obvious, but you don't drive a dyno. So, from the driver's seat, there actually feels like there is LESS lag at 3K RPM and higher. Obviously, part of that is the tune in general, but I have lost no drivability at all. There is just more on top. This motor has a lot more power left in it, but I asked them to be conservative. My biggest concern is the transmission giving out.
This was definitely a very worthwhile mod. You don't get that feeling of it running out of breath on top and it just has more goodness everywhere, but not such that it makes it hard to drive like a normal human.
Alex - you are welcome to drive it whenever you want. Send me a PM and we can set it up.
Not to state the obvious, but you don't drive a dyno. So, from the driver's seat, there actually feels like there is LESS lag at 3K RPM and higher. Obviously, part of that is the tune in general, but I have lost no drivability at all. There is just more on top. This motor has a lot more power left in it, but I asked them to be conservative. My biggest concern is the transmission giving out.
This was definitely a very worthwhile mod. You don't get that feeling of it running out of breath on top and it just has more goodness everywhere, but not such that it makes it hard to drive like a normal human.
Alex - you are welcome to drive it whenever you want. Send me a PM and we can set it up.
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Schulminator (03-21-2018)
03-22-2018, 09:07 AM
#109
Senior Member
Reading the thread and looking at the graph, I would also be concerned about the figures below 3000rpm.
I'm more interested in how it affects every day driveability. So ignore WOT pulls in 1st or 2nd from 1000rpm. What happens if you're in 4th and 1200rpm and you want to accelerate a bit quickly (maybe you see a gap that you want to get through etc.). How is the lag then?
I have an F80 M3 now, and I ask because my car is downright frustrating because it only gets up after 2700rpm, which is very frustrating when cruising along.
03-22-2018, 10:44 AM
#110
Jeezus! Give the man a break dude.
Reading the thread and looking at the graph, I would also be concerned about the figures below 3000rpm.
I'm more interested in how it affects every day driveability. So ignore WOT pulls in 1st or 2nd from 1000rpm. What happens if you're in 4th and 1200rpm and you want to accelerate a bit quickly (maybe you see a gap that you want to get through etc.). How is the lag then?
I have an F80 M3 now, and I ask because my car is downright frustrating because it only gets up after 2700rpm, which is very frustrating when cruising along.
Reading the thread and looking at the graph, I would also be concerned about the figures below 3000rpm.
I'm more interested in how it affects every day driveability. So ignore WOT pulls in 1st or 2nd from 1000rpm. What happens if you're in 4th and 1200rpm and you want to accelerate a bit quickly (maybe you see a gap that you want to get through etc.). How is the lag then?
I have an F80 M3 now, and I ask because my car is downright frustrating because it only gets up after 2700rpm, which is very frustrating when cruising along.
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Toff (04-28-2018)
03-22-2018, 12:20 PM
#112
Jeezus! Give the man a break dude.
Reading the thread and looking at the graph, I would also be concerned about the figures below 3000rpm.
I'm more interested in how it affects every day driveability. So ignore WOT pulls in 1st or 2nd from 1000rpm. What happens if you're in 4th and 1200rpm and you want to accelerate a bit quickly (maybe you see a gap that you want to get through etc.). How is the lag then?
I have an F80 M3 now, and I ask because my car is downright frustrating because it only gets up after 2700rpm, which is very frustrating when cruising along.
Reading the thread and looking at the graph, I would also be concerned about the figures below 3000rpm.
I'm more interested in how it affects every day driveability. So ignore WOT pulls in 1st or 2nd from 1000rpm. What happens if you're in 4th and 1200rpm and you want to accelerate a bit quickly (maybe you see a gap that you want to get through etc.). How is the lag then?
I have an F80 M3 now, and I ask because my car is downright frustrating because it only gets up after 2700rpm, which is very frustrating when cruising along.
03-27-2018, 08:59 AM
#114
Super Member
So just wanna make sure I'm reading this right:
- Eurocharged/Renntech/Etc quote roughly 100hp with their ECU + catless DPs. So 600hp X 13 drivetrain loss = 522rwhp, which is your baseline dyno (on high flow cats however).
- After Stage II turbos, you made 626rwhp (720bhp). That's more than Renntech's Stage I Turbocharger Upgrade (610rwhp), which requires a fuel system upgrade. They also offer a Stage II Turbocharger Upgrade, which makes 660rwhp, but at a cost of almost $24K (ECU Upgrade, Sport Muffler, BOV Adapter, High-Flow Air Filter, Fuel System Upgrade, Stage II Turbocharger Upgrade).
Did your Pure Stage IIs require a fuel system upgrade (or any other supporting mods)? Or is it just tune, DP, and turbos?
And I mighta missed it, but what do the Stage IIs cost (as compared to the $3500 Stage Is they offer)?
- Eurocharged/Renntech/Etc quote roughly 100hp with their ECU + catless DPs. So 600hp X 13 drivetrain loss = 522rwhp, which is your baseline dyno (on high flow cats however).
- After Stage II turbos, you made 626rwhp (720bhp). That's more than Renntech's Stage I Turbocharger Upgrade (610rwhp), which requires a fuel system upgrade. They also offer a Stage II Turbocharger Upgrade, which makes 660rwhp, but at a cost of almost $24K (ECU Upgrade, Sport Muffler, BOV Adapter, High-Flow Air Filter, Fuel System Upgrade, Stage II Turbocharger Upgrade).
Did your Pure Stage IIs require a fuel system upgrade (or any other supporting mods)? Or is it just tune, DP, and turbos?
And I mighta missed it, but what do the Stage IIs cost (as compared to the $3500 Stage Is they offer)?
03-30-2018, 02:16 AM
#118
Super Member
03-30-2018, 09:36 AM
#120
Senior Member
03-30-2018, 10:02 AM
#121
Super Member
Thread Starter
At "just driving along" speeds, hitting the gas in any gear creates an immediate reaction. I have had cars with lag, and this isn't one of them. It feels closer to a supercharged car than a big turbo car. It is a very easy car to drive easy, and a super fun car to drive hard.
03-30-2018, 06:47 PM
#122
I have the stock fuel system. Mods are: Pure Stage 2 Turbo. 200 cell hi-flow cats, Eurocharged (conservative) dyno tune. There is a lot more left, but it is stupid fast as is, so not sure if I will spring for more.
03-30-2018, 06:49 PM
#123
03-30-2018, 08:05 PM
#124
Super Member
FYI, Some may have seen.....
E63/GTR turbos would be great daily street upgrade...I can get complete for around 12k euros. E63 are the same as GTR. You would need turbos, manifolds, lower heat shield, coolant hoses. Even better with new wheels in those housings.
I have a set of GTR twin scroll manifolds on my C63s. . I didn't use the GTR/E63 turbos, I went bigger. The manifolds are larger tube diameter and twin scroll pairing. Although i have not taken advantage of twin scroll feature, the castings were needed for my fitment.
The stock c63 manifolds are very small at v-band, as well as turbine housing, causing tremendous EGT's and ultimately limiting power. I changed the GTR v-band flange to accept larger BorgWarner EFR's. Currently stuck at 800hp on 91oct, because of stock in-tank fuel pump output and map sensor limitations. New pumps are in the works....along with drop-in MB 4bar map sensor.
Lots of pics on my Instagram @Power_Technik
E63/GTR turbos would be great daily street upgrade...I can get complete for around 12k euros. E63 are the same as GTR. You would need turbos, manifolds, lower heat shield, coolant hoses. Even better with new wheels in those housings.
I have a set of GTR twin scroll manifolds on my C63s. . I didn't use the GTR/E63 turbos, I went bigger. The manifolds are larger tube diameter and twin scroll pairing. Although i have not taken advantage of twin scroll feature, the castings were needed for my fitment.
The stock c63 manifolds are very small at v-band, as well as turbine housing, causing tremendous EGT's and ultimately limiting power. I changed the GTR v-band flange to accept larger BorgWarner EFR's. Currently stuck at 800hp on 91oct, because of stock in-tank fuel pump output and map sensor limitations. New pumps are in the works....along with drop-in MB 4bar map sensor.
Lots of pics on my Instagram @Power_Technik
Just how conservative is that? Cuz that's 45 RWHP than they made on their Stage I setup, and a whopping 127 RWHP less than what they made on their Stage II setup. At the same boost, on the same tune??
03-30-2018, 10:03 PM
#125
MBWorld Fanatic!
