mrguitar

Yeah, but that's a very "Audi-ish" thing to do, quite honestly. My wife only drives a Q7, but my exposure to the brand gives me the feeling that Audi cannibalizes things much worse than Merc. Also, outside the R8, the "R" line doesn't feel as special as AMG to me. I think AMG will definitely differentiate the C43 and C63...but who knows, with the W206, they may do away with the C43 entirely...what will they do? Put in a 2-cylinder in that one?

munis

No source needed. It is the most obvious choice. Mercedes is not stupid, they would not move a single C63 when the new M3 and M4s are already getting a combustion only for the next generation with all wheel drive. No company can be that daft. W206 will have a V8, and it really will be the last of it. Expect w207 to be something different. But the V8 will stay. Its the only logical deduction.

JohnEnglish

I really want to believe this, and it makes sense. That said, with EURO 7 emission standards set to start rolling out in 2020, the easiest way to cut emissions at this point is to reduce the weight of the drive train.

Another problem is the new naming strategy. All *63 vehicles have the V8. The *45 vehicles have the 4 cylinder. I guess *63 will now either mean V8 or 4 cylinder + electrification if they go this route.

mrguitar

hmmmm...interesting take, however, i would disagree. BMW doesn't have a 421HP 4-cylinder engine, only AMG does. combined with electric motors, as long as AMG beats M at the HP/Torque game, then i think that's all that matters to them in the C63 vs M3/4 race.

munis

It is a race they will loose like never before. And I am sure they know that. Inline 4 engine with motor assist vs a proper inline 6 combustion engine, which one would you take? Moreover the crank hub issue has been fixed for the S58, that engine going forward will be as tunable as the new supra engine. 99% percent of the c63s owners get this car because of the engine. Remove that, it wouldn't take long for them to build their nest somewhere else. Specially when cars like clapped out RS3s are *****slapping lambos and mclarens all day long these days.

mrguitar

Well...to each his own. Like i said in my previous post on this, we haven't seen the final picture. I hate as much as anyone the idea that they will get rid of the M177 in favor of a 4-cylinder but i don't think that reason alone will be why people go to M. I personally, having had an M4, don't find it that alluring. I mean, with the new one being able to output 500HP, it definitely makes it an intriguing proposition, but if the W206 comes out with say, 600HP, are you saying that everyone will still run to BMW, just because it has 2 more cylinders? I don't think so. I personally would start looking at all the rest of the details to make a real comparison.

Uga Uga

C63S Tesla edition. 😊😊😊


Check out the switchgear also.

munis

Say W206 produces 600hp from a 4 banger and a couple of motors. The V8 is gone. So the potential buyer does not care about the V8 or engine sound, possibly cares about how fast the car goes, luxury, track performance, brand name/ loyalty, environment?

The new M4 will have all of that minus that environmental concerns, plus a tuner market which we never had. Our tuner market, which is still in its infancy, will only get worse once the current engine format is gone. The 4 cylinders are already tuned to the brink of death. Unless you see tuners tune the motors for higher output (The reliability will already a big question mark in stock form), the tuner scene will be dead for the C- Class for good. Ofcourse this is all conjecture. This just what I personally think would happen.

About the power gap, the weight difference so far has been an answer for the power deficit M cars have had so far.

mrguitar

I just personally don't trust M to deliver. I never had a doubt they could get 500HP in an M3/4 but how the power is delivered is always at high RPMs. There's never any torque and I hate that. So, for me, there is nothing emotional for me regarding the M3/4 engine. Again, this is just me personally. But I also personally don't care about tuning my cars; I'm sure many do, so your point could be valid valid here.

It is definitely a mysterious future, but with a relatively reliable source like autocar reporting this news, and with several other auto media outlets now piggybacking off the info, and on top of it all, with AMG not saying a thing to refute it days later, I'm thinking the news is valid for the W206...we may just have to settle in for the 4-cylinder long haul...

munis

Dunno about you but if I were to settle for a 4 banger, I would just drive a golf or si. I will be keeping my eye out. I was going to place my deposit in for the 2020 C63s, but then top gear said, W206 will keep V8s and will bring 4 matic plus. So I took a step back. I am a pretty patient guy haha, so I do not mind waiting for the correct news. Once the Hybrid 4 cylinder becomes pretty much a fact, I will definitely get one of the last w205.

JPM-3

I had that same idea, only I wasn't gonna wait for the bad news- placed my order this past April. I do however, trust that M will produce a spectacular G8x before they go the way of electrification. I guess something for me to consider in around 6 years when the next M3/4 nears end of life.

mrguitar

Personally, I look at the entire package. Like I wouldn't just compare displacement alone. I would look at the fact that the engine is hand-crafted and spectacular in comparing it to a similar-sized engine. Because that's almost like saying why don't we just settle for a Camaro or Challenger? Those are V8s with even higher output but I wouldn't trade my AMG V8 for a second over those. I also look at the luxury of the vehicle, how it looks, how it sounds, etc. when making a decision. Also, since I'm a numbers guy, I would look at the HP and Torque numbers as well (I'm lame like that haha). Nevertheless, AMG has their work cut out for them on this one. It's definitely much more drastic news that with past generations...we'll just have to see how things shake out.

superswiss

I don't deny that the V8 was a big part of the reason I'm in a C63S now, but it wasn't the only reason. Coming from a '13 Audi RS5, the new RS5 just wasn't exciting and was lacking a soul. If AMG produces an exciting C63 despite a 4 cylinder hybrid drivetrain, I'm not gonna write it off just yet. Focusing on the displacement just like peak hp makes you miss all the other aspects of the car. In all honesty if all you want is a V8, I'd recommend getting some American muscle.

munis

For me it made a lot of sense to wait. Because if the 4 Matic + indeed comes to the C63s, combine that with a V8, to me that would be the most perfect performance car to ever come out of Germany. I call BS on all these news. A Hybrid- 4 cylinder is indeed being cooked in the AMG skunkworks, but it isn't coming for the C63, the C53 will get it. I will put my money on it.

munis

Agreed about the American V8s, wouldn't get one if my life depended on it.

mrguitar

I'll take that bet! How much?

...and btw, it will be a one-sided bet.

mrguitar

only the hellcat or demon remotely interests me...800HP is no joke!

AlexZTuned

The C8 Corvette sounds miles more interesting than a 4 cylinder C63. Cheaper too, I’m sure.

I bought this car for the M177, there’s no way you’ll convince me to buy a W206 for $90-100k with a 4 banger. Unless that thing magically revs to 9k and has a clutch and shifter...

NYCSoiL

Here’s more info

Tuxdude

As stated in the above Reddit thread, it appears all of the articles are quoting Autocar's article. I'm also not sure how AMG will be managing to squeeze 503hp out of the 4-cylinder, even if they are going to partially electrify it.

They need to lighten the vehicle way more than the CLA to get the same or better power-to-weight ratio. In addition, would the torque curve be better than M177 to deliver the peak torque over a wider powerband? This is doable with a hybrid 6-cylinder, but really hard with a hybrid 4-cylinder. Or may be, MB might say bye-bye to C63 altogether and just stick with a C45 as the highest power C-Class if they don't want to bring in the 6 or 8 cylinder versions to W206.

Regarding hand built engines, is it possible to have only certain variants of the same engine hand built? Like the I-6 with higher power output for C63 gets hand built but not the I-6 with lower power output for E53/CLS53/GT53, is that possible?

superswiss

One word, revs. One option they have is to modify it, strengthen the internals and make it rev high. Further up @AMGC claims he's been snuck into the engine testing facility and seen the engine running at 9000 rpm. This is how they get all that power out of a 1.6l V6 in the AMG One. HP = Torque x RPM / 5252. Increase peak rpm and you get more HP out of the same engine. Give it e-motors for the low end response and you potentially have a pretty exciting animal. The DTM has gone from a naturally aspirated V8 to a 2.0 I-4 high revving turbo capable of making more HP than the outgoing V8 for example. It's technically possible, just a matter of getting it reliable enough for the street, but high-revving engines is nothing new and the DTM engines have to last for an entire season. They are not allowed to rebuild it between races. In the past they have been criticized for lacking torque down low, but that's where the hybrid comes in.

Tuxdude

High-revving engine is one option I agree but I don't think it's that simple. It is more suitable for racing applications where the lifetime of an engine is very less but for street applications it come with its own set of drawbacks - Extra heat, Need to strengthen all the components within the engine to handle the higher RPMs, and primarily reduced engine life as a side-effect. For example with AMG One, they've only promised a 31,000 miles lifetime. Most street car engines have at least a lifetime of 150k - 200k miles with normal use.

It might be the direction, but it would require years of development to make them more reliable with such high RPMs. May be with W207 ?

superswiss

Yeah, I wouldn't take the AMG One as a reference. That engine is a modified version of the Formula One engine. High-revving works fine on the street, I'm actually quite fond of it. My RS5 had a high-revving naturally aspirated V8 with an 8500 rpm redline. Sold it with about 73,000 miles and no major engine trouble. Previously the RS4 was high-revving and its main issue was carbon build up being one of the first direct injection engines, R8 high-revving V10 which the RS5 V8 was based on. 911 GT 3 and GT 3 RS are high-revving 9000 rpm flat 6. High-revving turbo engines are a bit more challenging, but they also exist. McLaren's ubiquitous engine is a 3.8l twin-turbo flat-plane V8 with an 8500 rpm redline. It's obviously a supercar, but I'm not aware that it requires an engine rebuild at some point.

nobbyv

To say "It's the only logical deduction" is disingenuous. There are many "logical deductions". SOMEONE has to be the first to decrease displacement and add electrification in this space. Why wouldn't Mercedes want to be first? There's one.

munis

It would not be logical for Mercedes to loose 50% of the C63s sales to BMW, just so that they can be the first to bite the electric wire. To me it is the only logical explanation. Should have clarified that. I can very well be wrong.

Anyone been to the private lounge lately? What do the guys there think?