I guess my answer is it's not for everyone, and I don't try and hard sell it, never will, and I never try and hard sell anything. There are mods that just aren't for some people - and if that's you? That's perfectly OK with me. The people who want it, buy it, and listen to my professional advice. Seems to me this dealer flashing thing is being made a needless issue. I've tuned a dozen 205 C63's, everyone loves it, and it's the single best performance mod in my opinion (even before ECU tuning). I will also note (as I have already stated) that this is NOT an EC product, we are merely facilitating this and making it widely available to the US market. I have tuned more TCU's in the past 2 months than have been done in the last 5 years in the USA.

There will NOT be a handheld solution anytime soon as far as I'm aware.

If you don't want to pay any more money, don't flash your TCU after the tune - It's really that simple There are plenty of very skilled Indy shops all over the country (like mine in central TX) that will take care of your car 1000x better than any dealer. I routinely take care of brand new vehicles with warranties, tone of em' all the time.

Thanks!

Dave

 

Agreed - something like xHP would be amazing for our cars. That way we could reflash a specific tune for going to the track, long road trip, etc.

 

All good even though debatable to forgo MB service and in particular most of our cars are still under warranty ...but in any case how would I apply the re-flash for $700 if I need to?

 

This is what I don’t understand. What’s the logic behind servicing your car with a factory warranty at any other place other than the dealership? No shop will be able to file a warranty claim unless it’s in the dealer network. So it’s just money out of your pocket and into another, instead of MB paying for it.

I was fortunate enough to get free maintenance for 4 years and have not had to spend a single cent on any service or warranty claim since I picked up my Coupe new in Germany back in September 2016.

Also, every single update whether it be firmware updates to the radio, ESP updates, ECU or TCU drivetrain updates - I always notice improvement. Heck, even my suspension coding was updated twice and it completely transformed the handling of the car in all modes. Comfort is actually comfortable now. I’m going on a tangent here...

Basically, if I purchase a software license for Adobe (for instance), I can chuck the damn hard drive out of a building and still have the ability to reload that software back on a new drive. I don’t have to repay for that Adobe license, nor should I have to, just because it got deleted, corrupted, etc. The payment has already been made.

You are charging nearly 40% of the cost of the TCU tune itself just to get it reflashed. That’s a no from me brother.

 

I agree but my even bigger issue is how would I apply a reflash if needed ($700) if there is nobody else who can do it and no handheld. Charging $700 for that reflash is one thing, not even able to do it is a whole nother level.

I am in service business too and it seems OP has not thought that through entirely.

The tune might be the greatest, single performance mod we can do but its a one-shot, one-way path.

 

I’ve worked mostly in software/SaaS (large enterprise). You’d be laughed at by fortune 100/500’s if an RFP or contract stated there was 40% fee to reinstall software/license in the event of an accidental deletion of an instance... mind you, for something they’re about to spend well north of 6 digits per year. Support is of absolute importance to these customers or you can kiss them good bye. Anyone with a background in business knows it’s a lot more expensive to aquire new customers than it is to retain your existing ones.

Dave - why not consider something like mailing out the tools or equipment to your existing TCU customers in order to support them if they do end up losing their TCU tune? I’m sure they’d be a lot happier putting down a refundable deposit required to flash themselves than have to pay $700 (for a flight and home visit flash that’s done in 30 min via OBD?).

I think, for me personally, this is one of those things that will have to wait until there’s an at-home flashing solution. It was the same case when the first ECU flashes came out, requiring you to physically remove the ECU, crack it open and bench flash it. Those days are far gone with OBD flashing, and unfortunately don’t see myself doing TCU tuning until it’s possibly to do it at home too. I’ll be on a new platform before that day comes...

 

I do complimentary firmware and software updates for all new cars as required when then come for service - but only the ones that actually are needed. You realize when you car goes to the dealer for one of these "free/prepaid services" its most likely being worked on by a kid who's getting paid $15/hr for oil changes, and software updates. That's how it works - to put your mind at ease they made him watch a bunch of "e-learning" videos on-line, and gave him a "certification" I was leaving the dealership world when this was becoming the norm. Prepaid maintenance = poorly trained kids working on your car. That's the truth in most cases. Its about flat rate times, and hourly rates. The quality techs aren't interested in doing grunt work that doesn't pay. Sorry to be the one to inform you...

You beauty again, is that YOU NEVER HAVE TO PAY ANYTHING, there is no reason, not ever, to go back to stock.

Thanks!

Dave

 

While we are always looking to put our best foot forward, we have a pretty good reputation, and love our clientele. Would not have it any other way We don't not set the prices, and it just is what it is. Eventually the IP will get ripped off and the price will drop, and then y'all can get it then, or not? Again, not trying to sell it. Just putting the info out there, and the guys who want it and have the money, and want the fastest car will get it.

I buy expensive hardware and software for my business all the time, and don't groan and complain about the price - we live in a free market, and I think it's worth it for me, I buy it, that's it.

Thanks!

Dave

 

It wasn’t a free plan. I negotiated it for free when I purchased the car - it was around a $3500 option on the AMG dealer ordering guide at least on MY 17 coupes. My car has been serviced by 3 different dealerships in two states since 2016, and I have never had an issue with the quality of service - in fact, they’ve all been nothing but stellar. That includes a large MB dealership in Boston and two dealerships in Central Texas.

I won’t debate the merits of servicing a car out of pocket when you have a factory warranty that literally pays for the parts and labor for repairs or (in my case) service - those A, B services add up (thousands over the years). I can’t imagine that having a pre-paid maintenance plan automatically means your AMG is assigned to the cheapest hourly mechanic on duty you’re dealing with these types of cars. Last time I had my vehicle in they had one of their main techs troubleshooting a blown MAP on the IC. But if that’s the case, those kids and e-learning courses have been doing just fine 😅

Also Dave, this isn’t meant to be a personal attack or anything so please don’t take it that way. For anyone who doesn’t have a warranty, you’d be simply foolish to bring your car to a dealership when there are many competent shops around with expert techs (like EC).

 

Thats all good and fine ...but how would I apply the $700 reflash if I need it? You haven’t answered that yet. I can’t come to you for that and you will not come to me to do that. So, what’s the plan?

 

You told me previously that the dealer shotgunned some parts on your car that didn't end up fixing it... So much for the main tech - lol. I get calls from techs at both dealers in central Texas pretty often for help figuring out problems they cannot, and we get cars all the time to fix after the dealer has failed. B Services are $375 out the door and includes engine air filters, and cabin filters standard, along with full diag which is more than the dealer offers, and A Service is $180 out the door. Trans service is $330. Prepaid maintenance from the dealer is a total rip-off, plus if you're financing it your paying even more! All the maintenance you'd need in 4 years at my shop would be far less than any rediculous PPMS plan.

It's totally fine and again I don't set the prices or the policy. Once the proprietary software and IP gets stolen it will become more widely available and I'm sure it will just be a free-for-all. That's what seems to happen with most things nowadays. Until then, the guys that just wanna go faster than everyone else will enjoy the TCU tune.

Thanks!


​​​Dave

 

It’s not a rip off if it’s free. I purchased my car outright with cash. When this car first came out dealerships were charging people just for the required 1800 mile diff fluid change anywhere from 350-700 depending on where you live. Could you have done it at an Indy for less? Sure. Do you think MB would warranty that e-lsd when it takes a dump, even if it’s of no fault of the shop? I can tell you that the 3-4 services I’ve had with the car, had I not had that free prepaid, it would have, at a minimum, run $2k over the period of the 4 year warranty.

The MB dealer here replaced my MAP sensor (discovered it had failed through diagnostic testing) which resolved the CEL and code I had the car in for. What I sent you on IG was what I discovered after - the OEM boost hose off the turbo that was just about to crack through so I had them replace that before it got bad and they also went through all my vac lines and ended up replacing a wastegate line as well. Good as new, and I didn’t even have to drive there to drop off and they delivered it right back to my home.

How much would you have charged for that service? Diagnostics, labor, and parts? And would you or your staff members have picked my vehicle up from my home and delivered it back to me with the necessary safety precautions taken in this environment? Playing devils advocate here...

 

lol.

Also not a fan of being on the financial hook for paying for a tune a second time if the tech forgot/accidentally reflashed the TCU/there was a problem that required a reflash etc etc.

I don't try to knock on someone's hustle, but personally I'm waiting until this is available remotely and once you've paid for it, you can reload it free of charge, just like the ECU remaps have become.

 

+ 1....and I still did not get an answer how we would apply that $700 second tune

 

Unless there's an already scheduled tuning session in your area, probably by adding another $1,000 to the bill for flights and hotel fees for the special trip for the in-person retune...

 

All diag is 100% free at my shop, we do this because we are pretty good at diag . The MAP sensor was not bad, I can pretty much guarantee you that ... This is why you had the same faults return for the same issue, in a short period of time. They are just blowing smoke up your butt. Now imagine all the paying customers that they just shotgun parts/repairs and then explain away the comebacks. We pickup and deliver vehicles all the time. We are willing to be however flexible we need to be to accommodate clients who have special requests.

Dealers have the general public fooled about Indy Shops for sure. They tell you that you'll void your warranty by taking it to an Indy, kinda like what your convinced of with the e-diff. I charge $150 for that fluid change and that's only because that specific fluid is very expensive. Seems kinda like extortion from the dealer for that service @$350-$700 - LOL.

It's not like all Indy shops work under a shade tree, and write out a receipt on a napkin. Customers get a comprehensive receipt with all parts/fluid used, which the manufacturer must honor. Get your e-diff serviced at 20k and then it fails at 30k? No problem, then you can take it to the dealer, provider your comprehensive records, and that's it

The typical usage of PPMS is not for convenience for the customer, its to lock them into a ultra high priced "maintenance" program... Extorting them upfront and them making a bunch of extra money on the backend. The Finance guys LOVE selling it as they get a good spiff, and so do the service advisors. Truth is Mercedes (in most cases) are very inexpensive to maintain. We can just agree to disagree I suppose.

Thanks!

Dave

 

Obviously this has sidetracked about service quality. I do agree MB service can be hit and miss, so does any Indy as well. How do you suggest to sort though and finding a qualified and certified Indy one could rely on? Going to MB at least assures its certified and if they mess up its on their dime. But would love to find a good indy shop. I have a trusted custom shop to help me with that but they don't do regular services.

Now back to my original question, which you seem to ignore: if I get your tune and need one day the re-flash for $700...how would I get it on the car?

 

Ya sorry, I do keep missing it At this point it involves flying out to get it done, as per the policy set forth by the tuner we facilitate for. Obviously there is the capability and of course the desire out there to steal this tune, I would be very surprised if anyone could not understand that... Imagine if the access to a new company's source code was able to be stolen from them by being careless with the data, and then reproduced by some thief to undercut them? We're working to develop a network by doing all these visits, and the end result will hopefully be a number of shops all around the country that we will be able to send the equipment to. Again - YOU - will be responsible for paying the deposit which will probably be something like $2,500, AND paying for shipping both ways. I can not be any more clear that there is no need whatsoever to do software updated at this stage in the game your platforms - I also will note that this is not like an iPhone update every month/couple months... there aren't "bug fixes". The ONLY important software updates happen within 1 year (at most) of a new platform. There have been something like 2 ever for the W205 - remember - it's just a variant of the 7g that has been in production since 2006... If you are concerned for some reason, even after I have explained all this, go to a shop like mine (or the dealer) and check your TCU software, get it updated if you want BEFORE getting your TCU tuned.

So after all that if you still make the choice to get your trans updated, you are 100% responsible for any charges to get re-flashed

As far as trying to find a good Indy - go see some shops, talk to the owners, see what type of cars are in the shop and parking lot, ask where they get their parts. You may call the wholesale dept of your local dealership and ask which independent (non body shop) buys the most from them. Go see how clean the place is, check out the bathroom. This week we've had 3 AMG GTS edition 1's, W213 E63's, many W212 E63s, SLS, not the mention the resident SLR that we take care of None of this is to brag or anything like that. But we do zero advertising, and all new business comes from word of mouth from our clientele. My shop is climate controlled - the Austin Dealership is NOT.

Thanks!

Dave

 

The irony is thick in this one...How do you think the original TCU coding was made available for these modifications to even be possible? The encryption was cracked, coding stolen & modified.
No way Im going to pay the amount you're asking while at the same time absolving you of all responsibility of bricking the TCU or worse, causing further harm upstream. You pay that amount of premium for the "service" and im not seeing it displayed on any positive level here. I hate being negative about anything progressing the platform but no need to fleece us for being the only gig in town either!

For example on my X5 less than $500 spent so far, I get xHP license, 2 x vanilla "Stage X" tunes and custom tune that I can flash via obd on the fly. This company had to go through the same process of cracking the encryption, etc. charging a fraction and give you the ability to reflash off your phone. Thats the type of company I can get behind.

 

Very cool story... It's clear this isn't the thing for you

I guess thanks for sharing?

Dave

 

Thanks Dave - pretty long winded answer to a simple question. Looks that “$700 reflash” is not really a practical or economical option for people not living close to you. Looks like your tune maybe great but it’s a one time shot and one way road -that’s not for me.

PS: can’t you protect your IP by encrypting your software properly? I do it for my company SW all the time to prevent pirating.

 

The European tuners had it encrypted for years, so yes, technically it should be possible assuming there is someone that has the skillset and capabilities to do so. But I would imagine since this code was cracked when it made its way to the US, and all of the tools necessary to flash (laptop, flashing software, cables, etc.), that this solution is more of a one and done kind of deal. The amount of money to invest in encrypting the software and packaging it into an OBD-II flasher is either a) too cost prohibitive or b) under some license/contract/IP.

I'm not exactly sure what the deal was with @5soko when he brought the TCU tune over, so maybe he can shed light on why the process is the way it is and if there's any hope the solution will become more accessible and user friendly. At the end of the day, this isn't EC's TCU tune, they're offering it as a service. Wouldn't surprise me if they had their own in the works and other tuners did as well now that this code is out and about... maybe competition will drive prices down and people will get more creative with their installation solutions.

 

encryption is not expensive - just need to know how. It could be that the issue is that ODB commands are sent in a standard code and similar to USB sniffers someone could sniff what ODB commands are being sent to tune. But that is not entry level either.

on competition: likely but consider that even today our ODB tunes are 5-10 times the cost of some of the BMW tune for some reason. Go get a MHD for a BMW and you get a boat load of custom features and can do changes on the fly via your phone. We are still far behind in cost and feature curve. I am amazed what my son can do with his MHD...

 

To be quite honest, I haven't been particularly thrilled with how W205 AMG aftermarket support has been up until recently. The cost for "break throughs" (when in actuality, it's existed for years in the EU, someone just paid to obtain it) and the hoops you need to jump through to get these cars where they need to be to translate dyno numbers to power on the road is expensive and frankly, inconvenient.

APR just ran consistent 9.9's in a base 991.2 Carrera T with hybrid turbos and a stock fuel system - had a fantastic dialed in tune running on E85 and includes PDK optimized software with all their 3.0L ECU upgrades for the 991.2 because it's essential in order for the car to perform well with the increased torque being demanded from the dual clutch. If the W205 sucks, it's because of the trans tq limits. I'm already paying 2500-3k for an ECU tune - I don't see why a TCU tune shouldn't be bundled and included so that the ECU tune actually performs well! Add in the fact that no one wants to invest the time/money making this game changer TCU tune into consumer friendly solution is the exact reason why I'm getting turned off this platform and AMG in particular. We are essentially paying prices that exceed high end Porsche tuning.

 

there is hope one day...