Few Bi-Turbo Questions
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 267
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From: Passaic, NJ
S600 Bi-Turbo/E39 M5
Few Bi-Turbo Questions
I should be getting my 03' S600 in a few days. It's coming on a delivery truckin another day or two. I'm pretty excited to get my hands on it. It's silver on black. I'll be sure to get some pics up when I get it.
I have a few questions though. I have done as much research as possible and learned insane amounts of info about these cars in the last 2 days. There are only a few things that I couldn't find.
1. Is the 5.5L 600 V12 Bi-turbo engine the same in the 03'-06' cars as it is to the new body style 07'+? The same question goes to the 6.0 65AMG V12 Bi-Turbo engine?
2. What are the differences in the 600 and 65 engines? Obviously the engine size, but is there any list i could find? I think the 65's have a bigger heat exchanger in front end. I also know the part numbers of all the turbos are different.
I have a few questions though. I have done as much research as possible and learned insane amounts of info about these cars in the last 2 days. There are only a few things that I couldn't find.
1. Is the 5.5L 600 V12 Bi-turbo engine the same in the 03'-06' cars as it is to the new body style 07'+? The same question goes to the 6.0 65AMG V12 Bi-Turbo engine?
2. What are the differences in the 600 and 65 engines? Obviously the engine size, but is there any list i could find? I think the 65's have a bigger heat exchanger in front end. I also know the part numbers of all the turbos are different.
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'14 E63S & '14 Audi SQ5
I should be getting my 03' S600 in a few days. It's coming on a delivery truckin another day or two. I'm pretty excited to get my hands on it. It's silver on black. I'll be sure to get some pics up when I get it.
I have a few questions though. I have done as much research as possible and learned insane amounts of info about these cars in the last 2 days. There are only a few things that I couldn't find.
1. Is the 5.5L 600 V12 Bi-turbo engine the same in the 03'-06' cars as it is to the new body style 07'+? The same question goes to the 6.0 65AMG V12 Bi-Turbo engine?
2. What are the differences in the 600 and 65 engines? Obviously the engine size, but is there any list i could find? I think the 65's have a bigger heat exchanger in front end. I also know the part numbers of all the turbos are different.
I have a few questions though. I have done as much research as possible and learned insane amounts of info about these cars in the last 2 days. There are only a few things that I couldn't find.
1. Is the 5.5L 600 V12 Bi-turbo engine the same in the 03'-06' cars as it is to the new body style 07'+? The same question goes to the 6.0 65AMG V12 Bi-Turbo engine?
2. What are the differences in the 600 and 65 engines? Obviously the engine size, but is there any list i could find? I think the 65's have a bigger heat exchanger in front end. I also know the part numbers of all the turbos are different.
1. The engines are structurally the same from 03'-09' for both the 600 and 65 models, respectively. The 07-09 have an updated Bosch ECU. The 07-09 could have potentially more power available as they appear to have significantly larger frontal intake area through the upper and lower grilles. Performance wise this probably would not offset the additional weight gained by the W221 and W216 platforms.
2. I heard somewhere that the compressor wheels on the turbos are different. The I/C H/E is much larger on the 65.
Tom
Tom
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From: San Jose area
'19 E63S sedan
1. The engines are structurally the same from 03'-09' for both the 600 and 65 models, respectively. The 07-09 have an updated Bosch ECU. The 07-09 could have potentially more power available as they appear to have significantly larger frontal intake area through the upper and lower grilles. Performance wise this probably would not offset the additional weight gained by the W221 and W216 platforms.
2. I heard somewhere that the compressor wheels on the turbos are different. The I/C H/E is much larger on the 65.
Tom
Tom
2. I heard somewhere that the compressor wheels on the turbos are different. The I/C H/E is much larger on the 65.
Tom
Tom
Last edited by whoover; Feb 23, 2009 at 12:52 PM.
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'14 E63S & '14 Audi SQ5
The turbocharger housings, turbines and compressor wheels are all larger. Greater boost. The I/C is 70% larger. Bore is increased. Crank is different. Camshift lift is increased. Larger pistons with larger wrist pins. Dedicated oil spray nozzles for each piston. Larger oil pump. Larger oil cooler. Different combustion chamber shape. Higher fuel pressure. Larger injection valves. Different materials for main and rod bearings from S600.
Tom
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From: San Jose area
'19 E63S sedan
Most of that stuff listed above deal with the engine size differential (crank, pistons..etc.) listed in AMG brochures. I believe JayCL600 had an MB master tech look up some of the part #'s to see what the differences were. When he looked up parts #'s the I/C cores they were the same for the 600/65 but the I/C heat exchanger is larger on the 65's. I think Jay can elaborate on the other stuff.
Tom
Tom
If the 65 really has a different crank, it would confirm the marketing literature that claims it's strengthened. Thus it would be great to know for sure. Similarly, different wrist pins imply different rods, which would also be done for strength as the stock parts theoretically could have been reused. Same with the bearings, since the journal sizes would seem to be the same.
All told, it's an impressive list of mods to increase power output and do it reliably.
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 267
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From: Passaic, NJ
S600 Bi-Turbo/E39 M5
2750300001 $3640.00 S600 crank
2750300101 $3920.00 S65 crank
They are different!
I can get any part number and price for any year MB in a heartbeat! Let me know if I should look at anything else.
2750300101 $3920.00 S65 crank
They are different!
I can get any part number and price for any year MB in a heartbeat! Let me know if I should look at anything else.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 23
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Actually, bore and pistons are the only thing that are implied by the greater displacement. And even there, the pistons are supposedly designed for higher output and not just bigger diameter versions of the S600 pistons.
If the 65 really has a different crank, it would confirm the marketing literature that claims it's strengthened. Thus it would be great to know for sure. Similarly, different wrist pins imply different rods, which would also be done for strength as the stock parts theoretically could have been reused. Same with the bearings, since the journal sizes would seem to be the same.
All told, it's an impressive list of mods to increase power output and do it reliably.
If the 65 really has a different crank, it would confirm the marketing literature that claims it's strengthened. Thus it would be great to know for sure. Similarly, different wrist pins imply different rods, which would also be done for strength as the stock parts theoretically could have been reused. Same with the bearings, since the journal sizes would seem to be the same.
All told, it's an impressive list of mods to increase power output and do it reliably.
What do you mean " higher output " for the pistons ? I'm a lil lost.
I was under the impression that the bigger diameter would compliment the larger bore which results in the higher output ( meaning displacement ) ... Am I wrong in this understanding ? Thanks
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From: San Jose area
'19 E63S sedan
Output is torque or horsepower, not displacement. Without the torque limiter, the 65 engine produces 885 ft-lb of torque, up from the 600's 590. That's 50% more torque from a 9% increase in displacement. Clearly there are other factors than the larger displacement.
Boost is one, but some of the other mods I mentioned also contribute. Others are to strenghten the engine so the extra output doesn't tear it apart. The pistons are in all three categories. They have a larger diameter to match the increased bore to increase displacement. They have a different shape, along with the combustion chambers' modified shape for more optimal combustion. And they are made of a stronger alloy, have larger wrist pins and cooled by a better oil spray system for robustness.
I have never compared the pistons side-by-side, so I'm only going by the literature but the phenomenal increase in inherent torque is evidence of a redesigned engine, not simply an increase in bore from 3.23 to 3.25 inches.
Boost is one, but some of the other mods I mentioned also contribute. Others are to strenghten the engine so the extra output doesn't tear it apart. The pistons are in all three categories. They have a larger diameter to match the increased bore to increase displacement. They have a different shape, along with the combustion chambers' modified shape for more optimal combustion. And they are made of a stronger alloy, have larger wrist pins and cooled by a better oil spray system for robustness.
I have never compared the pistons side-by-side, so I'm only going by the literature but the phenomenal increase in inherent torque is evidence of a redesigned engine, not simply an increase in bore from 3.23 to 3.25 inches.
Last edited by whoover; Feb 25, 2009 at 10:52 AM.
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Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 267
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From: Passaic, NJ
S600 Bi-Turbo/E39 M5
I think we need a new section on this forum for JUST Bi-Turbo cars. I constantly go fisihing in all the different sections to find new Bi-Turbo threads. 
I have another question. Do the 12cyl. turbo cars have BOV's or pop of valves? I'm not looking to change mine to some ricey crap valve or anything that makes noise for that matter, but I'm curious as to weather these cars have some or not and where they would be located.
I have another question. Do the 12cyl. turbo cars have BOV's or pop of valves? I'm not looking to change mine to some ricey crap valve or anything that makes noise for that matter, but I'm curious as to weather these cars have some or not and where they would be located.
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Posts: 153
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2009 Volkswagen Routan
I think we need a new section on this forum for JUST Bi-Turbo cars. I constantly go fisihing in all the different sections to find new Bi-Turbo threads.
I have another question. Do the 12cyl. turbo cars have BOV's or pop of valves? I'm not looking to change mine to some ricey crap valve or anything that makes noise for that matter, but I'm curious as to weather these cars have some or not and where they would be located.
I have another question. Do the 12cyl. turbo cars have BOV's or pop of valves? I'm not looking to change mine to some ricey crap valve or anything that makes noise for that matter, but I'm curious as to weather these cars have some or not and where they would be located.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,838
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From: U.K.
SL 63 W/B AMG , S600,C220
I should be getting my 03' S600 in a few days. It's coming on a delivery truckin another day or two. I'm pretty excited to get my hands on it. It's silver on black. I'll be sure to get some pics up when I get it.
I have a few questions though. I have done as much research as possible and learned insane amounts of info about these cars in the last 2 days. There are only a few things that I couldn't find.
1. Is the 5.5L 600 V12 Bi-turbo engine the same in the 03'-06' cars as it is to the new body style 07'+? The same question goes to the 6.0 65AMG V12 Bi-Turbo engine?
2. What are the differences in the 600 and 65 engines? Obviously the engine size, but is there any list i could find? I think the 65's have a bigger heat exchanger in front end. I also know the part numbers of all the turbos are different.
I have a few questions though. I have done as much research as possible and learned insane amounts of info about these cars in the last 2 days. There are only a few things that I couldn't find.
1. Is the 5.5L 600 V12 Bi-turbo engine the same in the 03'-06' cars as it is to the new body style 07'+? The same question goes to the 6.0 65AMG V12 Bi-Turbo engine?
2. What are the differences in the 600 and 65 engines? Obviously the engine size, but is there any list i could find? I think the 65's have a bigger heat exchanger in front end. I also know the part numbers of all the turbos are different.
I bought my S600 in March last year, it's a superb car but I bought it privately
without warranty, I have spent nearly 10K so far on faults and at the moment
it may need a new abc pump.
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From: Metro Kansas City
'05 CL65 AMG
Speaking of a warranty, what company are people using for this? I have a 65 arriving in a week or so and this is on my list of things to do.
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From: South FL & NYC
Your worst nightmare...
I think we need a new section on this forum for JUST Bi-Turbo cars. I constantly go fisihing in all the different sections to find new Bi-Turbo threads.
I have another question. Do the 12cyl. turbo cars have BOV's or pop of valves? I'm not looking to change mine to some ricey crap valve or anything that makes noise for that matter, but I'm curious as to weather these cars have some or not and where they would be located.
I have another question. Do the 12cyl. turbo cars have BOV's or pop of valves? I'm not looking to change mine to some ricey crap valve or anything that makes noise for that matter, but I'm curious as to weather these cars have some or not and where they would be located.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 5,768
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From: South FL & NYC
Your worst nightmare...
MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: San Jose area
'19 E63S sedan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowoff_valve .
Did yours make the pooting sound of a true BOV?
Member
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From: Eastern NC
CL 65/LX470
Regrading warranties:
https://mbworld.org/forums/cl55-amg-...-warranty.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/cl55-amg-...-warranty.html
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From: South FL & NYC
Your worst nightmare...
I thought the "schubumluftventil" is a diverter valve that vents to the intake, not the atmosphere like a BOV. For the difference, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowoff_valve .
Did yours make the pooting sound of a true BOV?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowoff_valve .
Did yours make the pooting sound of a true BOV?
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 267
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From: Passaic, NJ
S600 Bi-Turbo/E39 M5
Does the VRP intake/intercooler system, which has conical air filters and no air boxes, make BOV noises? I dont think Marco ever mentioned this.
V12Godspeed, I'm not sure I got what you said clearly. When you said you made and installed the custom intakes and removed the air boxes, did you also say that it did NOT make any performance difference? Did you have 2 mini air filters on each bank like the VRP setup or was there only one? I know you were selling your custom intake a little while ago. Do you still have any pics of it?
Thanks for all the info!
John
V12Godspeed, I'm not sure I got what you said clearly. When you said you made and installed the custom intakes and removed the air boxes, did you also say that it did NOT make any performance difference? Did you have 2 mini air filters on each bank like the VRP setup or was there only one? I know you were selling your custom intake a little while ago. Do you still have any pics of it?
Thanks for all the info!
John
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From: Chicago
CL65
I don't think it sounds too bad. Definately not a ricer BOV sound. There is no BOV on the car.
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Posts: 5,768
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From: South FL & NYC
Your worst nightmare...
Does the VRP intake/intercooler system, which has conical air filters and no air boxes, make BOV noises? I dont think Marco ever mentioned this.
V12Godspeed, I'm not sure I got what you said clearly. When you said you made and installed the custom intakes and removed the air boxes, did you also say that it did NOT make any performance difference? Did you have 2 mini air filters on each bank like the VRP setup or was there only one? I know you were selling your custom intake a little while ago. Do you still have any pics of it?
Thanks for all the info!
John
V12Godspeed, I'm not sure I got what you said clearly. When you said you made and installed the custom intakes and removed the air boxes, did you also say that it did NOT make any performance difference? Did you have 2 mini air filters on each bank like the VRP setup or was there only one? I know you were selling your custom intake a little while ago. Do you still have any pics of it?
Thanks for all the info!
John
Last edited by V12Godspeed; Feb 27, 2009 at 01:51 PM.
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From: Maryland
'14 E63S & '14 Audi SQ5
MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: U.K.
SL 63 W/B AMG , S600,C220
MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: Maryland
'14 E63S & '14 Audi SQ5
Paul:
Re-reading your statement...it might mean that they will not offer the MB extended warranty after the factory warranty expires. Which I would think it would be similar here (except for CPO cars). I would imagine that as long as you are within the factory coverage (and you are the original owner) they will offer you the warranty.
Tom
Re-reading your statement...it might mean that they will not offer the MB extended warranty after the factory warranty expires. Which I would think it would be similar here (except for CPO cars). I would imagine that as long as you are within the factory coverage (and you are the original owner) they will offer you the warranty.
Tom
