MBWORLD member sicrx65 Involved in Fatal car accident.
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From: Sydney, Australia
W203 slightly modified
Originally Posted by ClayJ
Physical Laws Involved in Rallying No. 5 -
You cannot steer, brake, or accelerate the car while airborne.
Catching air at speed without anticipating and correcting the car before losing contact with the ground will most likely result in going off course.
It is essential in rallying for the navigator to make preparations to know the course well enough to be able to identify to the driver both the areas where this is likely to occur and the correction necessary to be made by the driver to enable the driver to keep the car on course.
You cannot steer, brake, or accelerate the car while airborne.
Catching air at speed without anticipating and correcting the car before losing contact with the ground will most likely result in going off course.
It is essential in rallying for the navigator to make preparations to know the course well enough to be able to identify to the driver both the areas where this is likely to occur and the correction necessary to be made by the driver to enable the driver to keep the car on course.
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One cannot safely speed on an unknown road. One cannot safely speed on a known road without anticipating and correctly making changes in the car when encountering such things as elevation change. I know of very few roads in any State in this country which do not have hazards such as elevation changes, blind turns, gravel debris spots, cattle guards, RR tracks - etc.
It is seldom the road that causes the accident. It is the/a driver, how well he knew the road, how fast he was going, whether or not he was paying attention, etc.... Usually when someone goes off the road, the driver went off the road.....
It is seldom the road that causes the accident. It is the/a driver, how well he knew the road, how fast he was going, whether or not he was paying attention, etc.... Usually when someone goes off the road, the driver went off the road.....
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From: Sydney, Australia
W203 slightly modified
Originally Posted by ClayJ
One cannot safely speed on an unknown road. One cannot safely speed on a known road without anticipating and correctly making changes in the car when encountering such things as elevation change. I know of very few roads in any State in this country which do not have hazards such as elevation changes, blind turns, gravel debris spots, cattle guards, RR tracks - etc.
It is seldom the road that causes the accident. It is the/a driver, how well he knew the road, how fast he was going, whether or not he was paying attention, etc.... Usually when someone goes off the road, the driver went off the road.....
It is seldom the road that causes the accident. It is the/a driver, how well he knew the road, how fast he was going, whether or not he was paying attention, etc.... Usually when someone goes off the road, the driver went off the road.....
The reason for the oil being there was so that it would go thick in the cold of night and create a perfect oil smoke for wheel spins. It would have gone undetected were it not for the fact that other people use the road.
Im not satisfied that the road is safe. Even if it is safe at 20MPH it should not be lethal at triple that speed. Im not talking about making stupid mistakes I am more concerned about preventing stupid mistakes from killing people.
I see people make mistakes all the time. Even those with a death wish deserve NOT to die. There is more than one person on here who was a total risk taker as a teen and now they are valuable members of this forum.
Are we able to change the road or affect its change or do we stand around feeling terrible again next time it happens.
Last edited by benzmodz; Dec 31, 2005 at 08:18 PM.
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In the USA the roads are quite typically in what one would call, "bad shape". Too many vehicles and cargo-carrying trucks, too many millions of miles travelled per year, too great of weather and temperature extremes, and too few of our tax dollars (including fuel taxes at the pump) being spent on maintenance and infrastructure replacement. Many of our roads are 40 to 70 years old.
I have not found that one can often claim that it was the road, or an obstacle in the road which "caused" an accident. If the accident results in death or some other potentially large liability claim, I am sure that the issue of blame is litigated and that the government entity involved (or their insurance carrier) pays a percentage of the total claim as their 'share' in the liability. As a general rule of thumb, though, I have found that most States' laws and court caselaw utilize the philosophy or rule that one should never be travelling faster than is reasonably safe to do under the existing conditions at the time -- the "safe speed" law. If one is exceeding the posted speed limit at the time of the mishap it is even harder to successfully make the argument that the majority of the cause and/or liability for the accident did not belong to the driver.
I for one am personally pleased to hear that in Australia they care and take responsibility for their public roads.....
I have not found that one can often claim that it was the road, or an obstacle in the road which "caused" an accident. If the accident results in death or some other potentially large liability claim, I am sure that the issue of blame is litigated and that the government entity involved (or their insurance carrier) pays a percentage of the total claim as their 'share' in the liability. As a general rule of thumb, though, I have found that most States' laws and court caselaw utilize the philosophy or rule that one should never be travelling faster than is reasonably safe to do under the existing conditions at the time -- the "safe speed" law. If one is exceeding the posted speed limit at the time of the mishap it is even harder to successfully make the argument that the majority of the cause and/or liability for the accident did not belong to the driver.
I for one am personally pleased to hear that in Australia they care and take responsibility for their public roads.....
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From: Sydney, Australia
W203 slightly modified
Originally Posted by ClayJ
In the USA the roads are quite typically in what one would call, "bad shape". Too many vehicles and cargo-carrying trucks, too many millions of miles travelled per year, too great of weather and temperature extremes, and too few of our tax dollars (including fuel taxes at the pump) being spent on maintenance and infrastructure replacement. Many of our roads are 40 to 70 years old.
I have not found that one can often claim that it was the road, or an obstacle in the road which "caused" an accident. If the accident results in death or some other potentially large liability claim, I am sure that the issue of blame is litigated and that the government entity involved (or their insurance carrier) pays a percentage of the total claim as their 'share' in the liability. As a general rule of thumb, though, I have found that most States' laws and court caselaw utilize the philosophy or rule that one should never be travelling faster than is reasonably safe to do under the existing conditions at the time -- the "safe speed" law. If one is exceeding the posted speed limit at the time of the mishap it is even harder to successfully make the argument that the majority of the cause and/or liability for the accident did not belong to the driver.
I for one am personally pleased to hear that in Australia they care and take responsibility for their public roads.....
I have not found that one can often claim that it was the road, or an obstacle in the road which "caused" an accident. If the accident results in death or some other potentially large liability claim, I am sure that the issue of blame is litigated and that the government entity involved (or their insurance carrier) pays a percentage of the total claim as their 'share' in the liability. As a general rule of thumb, though, I have found that most States' laws and court caselaw utilize the philosophy or rule that one should never be travelling faster than is reasonably safe to do under the existing conditions at the time -- the "safe speed" law. If one is exceeding the posted speed limit at the time of the mishap it is even harder to successfully make the argument that the majority of the cause and/or liability for the accident did not belong to the driver.
I for one am personally pleased to hear that in Australia they care and take responsibility for their public roads.....
Even if the government or roads authority was only 10% to blame that could still be enough money to fix the problem. Sure its pathetic to litigate for every road incident .... but doing nothing is more damaging to social morale.
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From: Seattle
05 E55
Originally Posted by benzmodz
I think that some of these Boston / MA roads are shocking since the renovations and new highways. Its what I refer to as the gawdy phase. They let the old ones run down to make money for new ones. Then the new ones come along and the government of the day gets massive praise.
Even if the government or roads authority was only 10% to blame that could still be enough money to fix the problem. Sure its pathetic to litigate for every road incident .... but doing nothing is more damaging to social morale.
Even if the government or roads authority was only 10% to blame that could still be enough money to fix the problem. Sure its pathetic to litigate for every road incident .... but doing nothing is more damaging to social morale.
If a road does not have this tolerance built in, can some liability be on the people who built the road? Or even so, who left it in such bad condition?
Even if the road just contributed 10% to the accident (the other is 90% user error), maybe that 10% could have saved his life.
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In the USA it is the racetrack which is designed, engineered, and constructed for safety with high-speed use. They are seriously and constantly maintained for safety with high-speed use. Even the drivers and the cars which are used on them and which are in use on them are constantly monitored for safety with high-speed use.
Racetracks are where you do high speed in a car -- not public roads. It really is as simple as that.....
Racetracks are where you do high speed in a car -- not public roads. It really is as simple as that.....
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From: WOT somewhere in the Bay Area
1951 Caterpiller D6
You can't be serious blaming the road for this moron's failure to use the safety equipment provided to him by law. Never mind that the reports indicate he was running from the police which imply he was exceeding the government posted limits for that road and failing to drive in accordance with government prescribed training.
Get a grip people. The government cannot save people that don't want to be saved.
Get a grip people. The government cannot save people that don't want to be saved.
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From: Seattle
05 E55
Originally Posted by E55AMG99
You can't be serious blaming the road for this moron's failure to use the safety equipment provided to him by law. Never mind that the reports indicate he was running from the police which imply he was exceeding the government posted limits for that road and failing to drive in accordance with government prescribed training.
Get a grip people. The government cannot save people that don't want to be saved.
Get a grip people. The government cannot save people that don't want to be saved.
Perhaps this dusussion should be taken to another thread and discussed, in the OT.
Anyway, may his family, friends and loved ones find strength and closure with this new year.
Last edited by str8ridin; Jan 1, 2006 at 02:38 PM.
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Originally Posted by str8ridin
Moron? Show some respect and some class buddy, at least in this thread! And in your avatar, "WOT somewhere in the bay area" implies you exceed the government posted limits for roads and fail to drive in accordance with government prescribed training. So your cooment was unwarrented.
Perhaps this dusussion should be taken to another thread and discussed, in the OT.
Anyway, may his family, friends and loved ones find strength and closure with this new year.
Perhaps this dusussion should be taken to another thread and discussed, in the OT.
Anyway, may his family, friends and loved ones find strength and closure with this new year.
The fact that the victim was apparently not wearing his seatbelt, and that a survivor of the accident was, and that had the victim been wearing his seatbelt his life may not have ended so tragically - these are valid and valuable points to be discussed on a public forum; especially when at least the older and wiser of us wish that this message would go out to others, and that lives may be sved in the future because of this discussion. Perhaps, to a certain degree, the victim's tragic, untimely, and seemingly meaningless death can be redeemed or transformed from tragedy to valuable lesson...and to an affirmation and furtherance of life...IMO.
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From: Seattle
05 E55
Originally Posted by ClayJ
I don't think that using 'moron' in referring to someone publicly immediately after their tragic death is kind, respectful to his survivors -- or appropriate.
The fact that the victim was apparently not wearing his seatbelt, and that a survivor of the accident was, and that had the victim been wearing his seatbelt his life may not have ended so tragically - these are valid and valuable points to be discussed on a public forum; especially when at least the older and wiser of us wish that this message would go out to others, and that lives may be sved in the future because of this discussion. Perhaps, to a certain degree, the victim's tragic, untimely, and seemingly meaningless death can be redeemed or transformed from tragedy to valuable lesson...and to an affirmation and furtherance of life...IMO.
The fact that the victim was apparently not wearing his seatbelt, and that a survivor of the accident was, and that had the victim been wearing his seatbelt his life may not have ended so tragically - these are valid and valuable points to be discussed on a public forum; especially when at least the older and wiser of us wish that this message would go out to others, and that lives may be sved in the future because of this discussion. Perhaps, to a certain degree, the victim's tragic, untimely, and seemingly meaningless death can be redeemed or transformed from tragedy to valuable lesson...and to an affirmation and furtherance of life...IMO.
But you're right, when it boils down to it, seatbelts save lives. There are no two ways about it. Honestly, I'm so in the habit of putting mine on that I don't even back out of the driveway without one. I guess, deep inside, I just don't want to do anything to break the habbit, even if it's just for a small distance like my driveway. Sounds dumb, but I don't ever want to be caught in a car without one on.
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Originally Posted by E55AMG99
You can't be serious blaming the road for this moron's failure to use the safety equipment provided to him by law. Never mind that the reports indicate he was running from the police which imply he was exceeding the government posted limits for that road and failing to drive in accordance with government prescribed training.
Get a grip people. The government cannot save people that don't want to be saved.
Get a grip people. The government cannot save people that don't want to be saved.
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str8ridin- Just for clarification: I was quoting you because you were addressing his remarks and you posed the question of the appropriateness of continuing the discussion in this thread -- which discussion I do believe is appropriate to continue here. Just easier to quote one than two.... Glad you spelled that out for your sake though! 
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From: Sydney, Australia
W203 slightly modified
Originally Posted by E55AMG99
You can't be serious blaming the road for this moron's failure to use the safety equipment provided to him by law. Never mind that the reports indicate he was running from the police which imply he was exceeding the government posted limits for that road and failing to drive in accordance with government prescribed training.
Get a grip people. The government cannot save people that don't want to be saved.
Get a grip people. The government cannot save people that don't want to be saved.
However, the road itself was very straight and on a steep grade. The accidents were mostly a rear end type. So the margin for safety and death was take into consideration by the culprit when he worked his scam.
Similarly you could be faced with a more obvious road challenge like a slope, curve and speed hump and fail to judge them correctly because of poor lighting.
I have been caught off guard many times when the speed hump + pedestrian crossing lined up exactly with the street lights. So what looked like a white line was in fact a 6 inch block of concrete with a steep ramp. Even worse these things are just random. Its not as though all crossings have humps.
Furthermore this is not a matter of opinion. Is there merit in evaluating the crash screne without bias ? The laws and the roads change all the time - how do we know this was not preventable ? What if it was my car and i was driving to the dealer to have my seat belt lock looked at because it seemed to not work properly. What if sneezed four or five times from a bad cold and then lost control of my car ?
All of these things have happened to me at one time.
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From: Nova / Rockville
Custom CLK / 05 E500 4matic / 04 Acura TL <<Daily
Originally Posted by myNAMESterry
you think he wanted his life to end that night? chill the F U C K out and respect the situation.
Thread Starter
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From: Boston
is a German Tank
So ironic...
you know the name of the road where the accident took place is called memorial drive.
Sometimes I really do wonder why they call it "memorial", makes me think twice now...
the road itself is not too bad (pavementwise) only in a couple of places, like the Mass Ave exit before reconstruction -felt like going over 5,000 rumbles strips before the exit itself -where reconstruction has apparently not gotten to yet. It's really the curves here that are VERY dangerous, especially if one's speeding.
So sad, to see that yet another member has died due to the most unfortunate circumstances...Peace everyone and drive safe in 06'.
Sometimes I really do wonder why they call it "memorial", makes me think twice now...
the road itself is not too bad (pavementwise) only in a couple of places, like the Mass Ave exit before reconstruction -felt like going over 5,000 rumbles strips before the exit itself -where reconstruction has apparently not gotten to yet. It's really the curves here that are VERY dangerous, especially if one's speeding.
So sad, to see that yet another member has died due to the most unfortunate circumstances...Peace everyone and drive safe in 06'.
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From: Los Angeles
CLK W208
E55amg.... this is not the time or the place for youre unkind comments. please keep them to yourself and let everyone say their prayers and condolences. this thread is in memory of SHIN GIL BRYAN HONG, not a discussion board. may his soul rest in peace. REST IN PEACE W208 BROTHER
Last edited by VIPclk320; Jan 2, 2006 at 12:32 PM.
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Whatever keys I grab first...
RIP Shin... sad to see anyone go out that way.
All of you guys are arguing about the road conditions and speedlimits and all this stuff, which is really, in my opinon, irrelevant. Fact is, even if he was speeding, even if he wasn't wearing his seatbelt, he would STILL be with us today had the cop not initiated chase. A lot of the deaths involving autos are because the "suspects" are being chased, and when there's a cop behind you with his lights flashing-- and your record is not so good to begin with; the last thing you might want to do is stop.
Im not saying let everyone go, but imagine how many lives could be saved if police didn't chase after suspects. I personally believe seeing the Cop car was enough to convince our friend to slow down, but when the lights went on and suddenly the cop is behind him, Im pretty sure he floored it to get away-- however stupid his actions might have been, one cannot argue the police vehicle has NO involvment to determing the outcome. If the police vehicle would have just driven by, Im fairly certain he would have slowed, taken some backstreets to avoid "heat", and kept it on the "dl" for the night, which in turn would unbeknownest to him, save his life.
The Police are the ones who really caused his death; not as a whole, but partially.
Speeding doesn't neccessairly kill-- speeding with pressure on you, does.
Which is easier:
Speeding freely, or
Speeding and knowning if you fail, you will get arrested and car impound?
I think one has a calmer mind just speeding.
Just my opinion on the matter.
-John
All of you guys are arguing about the road conditions and speedlimits and all this stuff, which is really, in my opinon, irrelevant. Fact is, even if he was speeding, even if he wasn't wearing his seatbelt, he would STILL be with us today had the cop not initiated chase. A lot of the deaths involving autos are because the "suspects" are being chased, and when there's a cop behind you with his lights flashing-- and your record is not so good to begin with; the last thing you might want to do is stop.
Im not saying let everyone go, but imagine how many lives could be saved if police didn't chase after suspects. I personally believe seeing the Cop car was enough to convince our friend to slow down, but when the lights went on and suddenly the cop is behind him, Im pretty sure he floored it to get away-- however stupid his actions might have been, one cannot argue the police vehicle has NO involvment to determing the outcome. If the police vehicle would have just driven by, Im fairly certain he would have slowed, taken some backstreets to avoid "heat", and kept it on the "dl" for the night, which in turn would unbeknownest to him, save his life.
The Police are the ones who really caused his death; not as a whole, but partially.
Speeding doesn't neccessairly kill-- speeding with pressure on you, does.
Which is easier:
Speeding freely, or
Speeding and knowning if you fail, you will get arrested and car impound?
I think one has a calmer mind just speeding.
Just my opinion on the matter.
-John
