MBWORLD member sicrx65 Involved in Fatal car accident.
01-02-2006, 06:44 PM
#101
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Originally Posted by Lexani
RIP Shin... sad to see anyone go out that way.
All of you guys are arguing about the road conditions and speedlimits and all this stuff, which is really, in my opinon, irrelevant. Fact is, even if he was speeding, even if he wasn't wearing his seatbelt, he would STILL be with us today had the cop not initiated chase. A lot of the deaths involving autos are because the "suspects" are being chased, and when there's a cop behind you with his lights flashing-- and your record is not so good to begin with; the last thing you might want to do is stop.
Im not saying let everyone go, but imagine how many lives could be saved if police didn't chase after suspects. I personally believe seeing the Cop car was enough to convince our friend to slow down, but when the lights went on and suddenly the cop is behind him, Im pretty sure he floored it to get away-- however stupid his actions might have been, one cannot argue the police vehicle has NO involvment to determing the outcome. If the police vehicle would have just driven by, Im fairly certain he would have slowed, taken some backstreets to avoid "heat", and kept it on the "dl" for the night, which in turn would unbeknownest to him, save his life.
The Police are the ones who really caused his death; not as a whole, but partially.
Speeding doesn't neccessairly kill-- speeding with pressure on you, does.
Which is easier:
Speeding freely, or
Speeding and knowning if you fail, you will get arrested and car impound?
I think one has a calmer mind just speeding.
Just my opinion on the matter.
-John
All of you guys are arguing about the road conditions and speedlimits and all this stuff, which is really, in my opinon, irrelevant. Fact is, even if he was speeding, even if he wasn't wearing his seatbelt, he would STILL be with us today had the cop not initiated chase. A lot of the deaths involving autos are because the "suspects" are being chased, and when there's a cop behind you with his lights flashing-- and your record is not so good to begin with; the last thing you might want to do is stop.
Im not saying let everyone go, but imagine how many lives could be saved if police didn't chase after suspects. I personally believe seeing the Cop car was enough to convince our friend to slow down, but when the lights went on and suddenly the cop is behind him, Im pretty sure he floored it to get away-- however stupid his actions might have been, one cannot argue the police vehicle has NO involvment to determing the outcome. If the police vehicle would have just driven by, Im fairly certain he would have slowed, taken some backstreets to avoid "heat", and kept it on the "dl" for the night, which in turn would unbeknownest to him, save his life.
The Police are the ones who really caused his death; not as a whole, but partially.
Speeding doesn't neccessairly kill-- speeding with pressure on you, does.
Which is easier:
Speeding freely, or
Speeding and knowning if you fail, you will get arrested and car impound?
I think one has a calmer mind just speeding.
Just my opinion on the matter.
-John
Anyways ,the cop in the video said he never caught up to Shin, so it wasnt a blue lights in the rear view mirror scenario. Running may have played a factor, but that, regretably would just be bad decision #2 on Shin's part. From what i've seen, it seems like they flew by the officer who tried to catch them, but they had wrecked by the time he was able to catch them (Crown Vic police cruisers are pigs from a dead start, so it would have taken a while to catch a car speeding on an interstate). Regardless, it is very sad to see a member go and i hope it doesnt happen again.
01-02-2006, 07:10 PM
#102
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E55amg, I know you've already been addressed about your comments, but I had to say something too. You are completely out of line. That was one of the most distasteful and disrespectful comments I have heard in a long time. Now is not the time for name-calling and accusations toward someone who has unfortunately passed away. You should be ashamed of yourself.
RIP. So sad to hear about such an untimely death. Drive safely everyone, and buckle up. Learn from the mistakes of others so the consequences do not happen again.
RIP. So sad to hear about such an untimely death. Drive safely everyone, and buckle up. Learn from the mistakes of others so the consequences do not happen again.
01-02-2006, 07:16 PM
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Yeh, Lex, I think even though name-calling is not appropriate here (which you did not do, but others have), it is still correct to place cause for the accident where it is due. Shin was not wearing his seatbelt, probably driving recklessly, and had a VERY unfortunate accident that turned tragic. Drivers are responsible for keeping in control of their vehicle at all times, which Shin unfortunately did not do. It had devastating consequences, but none of those can be blamed on the police IMO. The reason people do not drive recklessly all the time is because they know the consequences for those actions...if they get pulled over. If we take those consequences away, people will drive crazily all the time I think.
01-02-2006, 07:44 PM
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Lexani-
Out of respect for the loss of our member; and out of respect for you, I almost decided not to post in response to your post...but because I have been around the block a few times, and because I have run from the cops in my day too, and because I highly value the promise of life and believe that there are lessons to be learned vicariously here, I will try to post as concisely as possible:
You are right in raising the issue of unnecessary and often resultingly deadly high-speed police pursuits. Hundreds of innocent people die as a result of an unnecessary police pursuit simply because they just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Arguably 50% or more of police high-speed pursuits these days in the US are unwarranted in weighing risk of harm to the public in allowing the suspect to flee vs. the likelihood of an injury or death resulting from a collision or run off. This is an issue which is being debated, but is not correcting quickly enough in this country, IMO.
The facts of life, however, are that actions have consequences. Choices have consequences. Decisions have repercussions. No getting around that one. And just like in a plane crash, it is usually a series of multiple errors which results in disaster, and fatality.
The problem with making or taking off on an unwise, poor, risky, wrong, etc. choice or decision or action is that once you're headed down that road or path most of the remaining choice options available to you are bad as well. The best thing to do - and most of us learn this over time as we get older and make bad decisions and pay the cost for having done so - is to recognize that you've made a bad choice and stop, turn around, and get the hell outta there. The worst thing to do is to continue in your error because then you are going to get screwed for sure -- it is only a matter of time. The longer someone persists in their error the greater their odds are of being injured by that error.
If he had violated the law and had not taken care of it or if he was violating the law while driving that night, that was his first mistake. If he was not wearing his seatbelt, that was his second mistake. If he was actually doing something that attracted the attention of the police, that was his third mistake. If he chose not to simply pull over and take his lumps (in which case the consequences for him would certainly not have been worse than dying), that was his fourth mistake. If he chose to run from the cop, or to try and evade the cop by running at high speed, that was his fifth mistake. Whatever it was which caused the actual accident, whether it was the high speed, or an inadequacy or dangerous aspect of the road, or the inability of his car to negotiate something, or his inability as the driver to negotiate or correct for something - whatever - that was his sixth mistake....
You see where I am going here? From my limited knowledge of the event, had he at any point in time up to the 10 seconds or so just prior to the accident's occurring made a right, or wise, or correct, or less risky, or better choice and simply slowed down or pulled off of the road he would not have lost his life that night.
Finally - the probable outcome from attempting to evade law enforcement or anyone else at high speed on a public road is accident, injury, incarceration, court proceedings, ...and death. Never run from the cops. Nothing that they, or the courts, or even jail or prison time can do to you is more devastating or permanent than death.
There are alot of lessons which can be learned from Shin's tragic death. There are alot of future tragedies which can be avoided by learning these lessons from his tragic death.
Out of respect for the loss of our member; and out of respect for you, I almost decided not to post in response to your post...but because I have been around the block a few times, and because I have run from the cops in my day too, and because I highly value the promise of life and believe that there are lessons to be learned vicariously here, I will try to post as concisely as possible:
You are right in raising the issue of unnecessary and often resultingly deadly high-speed police pursuits. Hundreds of innocent people die as a result of an unnecessary police pursuit simply because they just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Arguably 50% or more of police high-speed pursuits these days in the US are unwarranted in weighing risk of harm to the public in allowing the suspect to flee vs. the likelihood of an injury or death resulting from a collision or run off. This is an issue which is being debated, but is not correcting quickly enough in this country, IMO.
The facts of life, however, are that actions have consequences. Choices have consequences. Decisions have repercussions. No getting around that one. And just like in a plane crash, it is usually a series of multiple errors which results in disaster, and fatality.
The problem with making or taking off on an unwise, poor, risky, wrong, etc. choice or decision or action is that once you're headed down that road or path most of the remaining choice options available to you are bad as well. The best thing to do - and most of us learn this over time as we get older and make bad decisions and pay the cost for having done so - is to recognize that you've made a bad choice and stop, turn around, and get the hell outta there. The worst thing to do is to continue in your error because then you are going to get screwed for sure -- it is only a matter of time. The longer someone persists in their error the greater their odds are of being injured by that error.
If he had violated the law and had not taken care of it or if he was violating the law while driving that night, that was his first mistake. If he was not wearing his seatbelt, that was his second mistake. If he was actually doing something that attracted the attention of the police, that was his third mistake. If he chose not to simply pull over and take his lumps (in which case the consequences for him would certainly not have been worse than dying), that was his fourth mistake. If he chose to run from the cop, or to try and evade the cop by running at high speed, that was his fifth mistake. Whatever it was which caused the actual accident, whether it was the high speed, or an inadequacy or dangerous aspect of the road, or the inability of his car to negotiate something, or his inability as the driver to negotiate or correct for something - whatever - that was his sixth mistake....
You see where I am going here? From my limited knowledge of the event, had he at any point in time up to the 10 seconds or so just prior to the accident's occurring made a right, or wise, or correct, or less risky, or better choice and simply slowed down or pulled off of the road he would not have lost his life that night.
Finally - the probable outcome from attempting to evade law enforcement or anyone else at high speed on a public road is accident, injury, incarceration, court proceedings, ...and death. Never run from the cops. Nothing that they, or the courts, or even jail or prison time can do to you is more devastating or permanent than death.
There are alot of lessons which can be learned from Shin's tragic death. There are alot of future tragedies which can be avoided by learning these lessons from his tragic death.
01-02-2006, 08:53 PM
#107
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ClayJ, well said. I can honestly say that I consider it an honor to know someone with so much wisdom, compassion, and success in life. I applaud you and I recommend you for MBWorld man/woman of the year. Good job and keep those posts coming.
01-02-2006, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by can drive 55
ClayJ, well said. I can honestly say that I consider it an honor to know someone with so much wisdom, compassion, and success in life. I applaud you and I recommend you for MBWorld man/woman of the year. Good job and keep those posts coming.
Our luck in life is in no way proof that we are smarter and wiser - in my case it certainly proves that I can run faster than a guy with a knife, so perhaps we are faster.
Even this psycho tried to run me off the road with his 2,000 kg all terrain truck.
http://theage.com.au/frontpage/2005/12/14/frontpage.pdf
How does that make me an authority on human error ? I just wish that if someone could make all these mistakes they would come to learn a mistake but hit nothing harder than a good police club.
Do we live in safe city ? Ask yourself every day and then come to the conclusion about what will be done and who will do it. It is not irrelevant to talk of street design when that is something we can all do every day in every town in the world and see if change brings good outcomes.
01-02-2006, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by can drive 55
ClayJ, well said. I can honestly say that I consider it an honor to know someone with so much wisdom, compassion, and success in life. I applaud you and I recommend you for MBWorld man/woman of the year. Good job and keep those posts coming.
01-02-2006, 10:12 PM
#112
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I heard on the morning news the other day that every year, there would be about over 40,000 people that would die from automobile accidents in the United States. That is a huge number.
01-02-2006, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by shadowgriffen
you know the name of the road where the accident took place is called memorial drive.
Sometimes I really do wonder why they call it "memorial", makes me think twice now...
the road itself is not too bad (pavementwise) only in a couple of places, like the Mass Ave exit before reconstruction -felt like going over 5,000 rumbles strips before the exit itself -where reconstruction has apparently not gotten to yet. It's really the curves here that are VERY dangerous, especially if one's speeding.
So sad, to see that yet another member has died due to the most unfortunate circumstances...Peace everyone and drive safe in 06'.
Sometimes I really do wonder why they call it "memorial", makes me think twice now...
the road itself is not too bad (pavementwise) only in a couple of places, like the Mass Ave exit before reconstruction -felt like going over 5,000 rumbles strips before the exit itself -where reconstruction has apparently not gotten to yet. It's really the curves here that are VERY dangerous, especially if one's speeding.
So sad, to see that yet another member has died due to the most unfortunate circumstances...Peace everyone and drive safe in 06'.
Another curve of interest on the other side of the Charles river is the S-curve on Storrow Dr (which is also created by the Longfellow Bridge). I've seen cars that were travelling at 50-60mph (40mph is the speed limit) hitting those curves and ended up swerving into the nearby lane. I think this is a design flaw of both Storrow and Memorial Dr, but nobody will address that issue.
01-02-2006, 11:06 PM
#114
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Whatever keys I grab first...
Ok, hold on, you guys've got me all wrong.
I didn't say the presence of the police is what ultimately produced the future outcome, I simply said it was a factor.
I agree, with the utmost respect for the victim and his family, it was Shin's fault-- mostly; but I, on that same note, am not ruling out the police's involvement in the accident.
I for one agree, if your doing something stupid like speeding, Fast and Furious manuevers and so on, you should be stopped; and the police have the rightful authority to follow through, however (!), I stop and ask myself:
"Is going 10, 20.... 100! MPH over the speedlimit, reason enough for the police to initiate a pursuit which in turn can end in disaster?"
Its a back and forth battle, and Im not set on either side... I simply put forth the arguement within myself in hopes of better understanding it, and I thank everyone who contributed to it, however, it still doesn't answer the former question:
"Is speeding, or breaking laws of the road, which at there very base are laws created by the people, reason enough to face and square off against death?"
......
Who am I to say?
Regardless of whom is at fault, the incident is a tragedy no less and I pray people take note of what happened and learn from it.
Its all we can hope for.
Regards,
John
I didn't say the presence of the police is what ultimately produced the future outcome, I simply said it was a factor.
I agree, with the utmost respect for the victim and his family, it was Shin's fault-- mostly; but I, on that same note, am not ruling out the police's involvement in the accident.
I for one agree, if your doing something stupid like speeding, Fast and Furious manuevers and so on, you should be stopped; and the police have the rightful authority to follow through, however (!), I stop and ask myself:
"Is going 10, 20.... 100! MPH over the speedlimit, reason enough for the police to initiate a pursuit which in turn can end in disaster?"
Its a back and forth battle, and Im not set on either side... I simply put forth the arguement within myself in hopes of better understanding it, and I thank everyone who contributed to it, however, it still doesn't answer the former question:
"Is speeding, or breaking laws of the road, which at there very base are laws created by the people, reason enough to face and square off against death?"
......
Who am I to say?
Regardless of whom is at fault, the incident is a tragedy no less and I pray people take note of what happened and learn from it.
Its all we can hope for.
Regards,
John
01-03-2006, 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by mick1
I heard on the morning news the other day that every year, there would be about over 40,000 people that would die from automobile accidents in the United States. That is a huge number.
Who is the grandfather of American automotive legislation and litigation against the big 3. I saw the story in great detail on TV, can remember the famous cases.
40,000 .... thats a lot of tax payers, a lot of parents and a whole pile of knowledge.
I have always been a Toffler fan myself.
01-03-2006, 08:02 AM
#119
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is a German Tank
Originally Posted by Kev04C320
According to the news report, the accident occured at the bend underneath the Longfellow Bridge. You can see from mapquest that Memorial Drive actually bends outwards onto Charles River before going under the Longfellow Bridge. Obviously, the existence of the foundation of the Longfellow Bridge neccessitates such a bend. I've taken that bend a couple times and it might be my lack of skills, but I can't take this corner much higher than the posted speed limit (I believe is 30mph). If the victim was running from a law enforcement officer, he might have not paid attention to this steep curve and made a poor decision of hitting this curve at too high a speed. As others have said, this accident is multi-factorial and there's no one single party that is more guilty than the others.
Another curve of interest on the other side of the Charles river is the S-curve on Storrow Dr (which is also created by the Longfellow Bridge). I've seen cars that were travelling at 50-60mph (40mph is the speed limit) hitting those curves and ended up swerving into the nearby lane. I think this is a design flaw of both Storrow and Memorial Dr, but nobody will address that issue.
Another curve of interest on the other side of the Charles river is the S-curve on Storrow Dr (which is also created by the Longfellow Bridge). I've seen cars that were travelling at 50-60mph (40mph is the speed limit) hitting those curves and ended up swerving into the nearby lane. I think this is a design flaw of both Storrow and Memorial Dr, but nobody will address that issue.
I stand corrected.
And is the S curve the one where you can see Mass Eye And Ear on your right hand side as you drive by? Because if it is I have always rated that curve as one of the most treacherous around boston period.
I have seen around 10 cars spin out of control due to that curve.
01-03-2006, 10:00 AM
#120
Out Of Control!!
Yes, The S curve is where you can see Mass Eye and Ear...
As far as the accident, Kev I think it was just before the dip, it looks like he was probably about 20 or 30 feet from going under the longfellow...
He was coming from the straight away... there are a few road factors there... the road does have some dips where if you were excessively speeding your going in to the air. Second thing is he may have tried to take the right before(on to main st) the swing down memorial drive(memorial drive as in for Veterans) and lost control on a VERY hard turn even impossible at speed.
We could argue this till we are blue in the face about the different things that caused this, as Clay J has pointed out multiple mistakes were made by all. What it doesnt solve is the greater problem of how we get kids to stop this or minimize this behavior. There are plenty of other outlets for kids to do this safely. And no they wont ever stop speeding, there is certainly a lot of built up energy they need to burn off, they need to be shown other avenues where it would be safer and less destructive to do this
King... I know you were speaking with his friend, any update or word how the family is doing? How about any fundraising in his honor?
As far as the accident, Kev I think it was just before the dip, it looks like he was probably about 20 or 30 feet from going under the longfellow...
He was coming from the straight away... there are a few road factors there... the road does have some dips where if you were excessively speeding your going in to the air. Second thing is he may have tried to take the right before(on to main st) the swing down memorial drive(memorial drive as in for Veterans) and lost control on a VERY hard turn even impossible at speed.
We could argue this till we are blue in the face about the different things that caused this, as Clay J has pointed out multiple mistakes were made by all. What it doesnt solve is the greater problem of how we get kids to stop this or minimize this behavior. There are plenty of other outlets for kids to do this safely. And no they wont ever stop speeding, there is certainly a lot of built up energy they need to burn off, they need to be shown other avenues where it would be safer and less destructive to do this
King... I know you were speaking with his friend, any update or word how the family is doing? How about any fundraising in his honor?
Last edited by 55fanatic; 01-03-2006 at 10:03 AM.
01-03-2006, 01:20 PM
#123
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Get off your high horses, people and come down to reality. This immature young adult had many chances to avoid this situation. The first of which was to use a damn seat belt. How many of you have seen the statistics about lack of seatbelt use? Wasn't he 17 years old? Anyone been to driver training as recent as him (last 12-18 months)? I guess he wasn't paying attention or didn't beleive the information to be credible. The second way he could have avoided the situation was to pull over for the police and accept the consequences of his actions. Instead, he chose to not only risk (end) his life but to endanger that of his passenger and everyone on the street that night. You or someone you love could have been injured that night by his selfish and senseless actions. You are all here acting like he was some great friend when in reality, he was just another spoiled brat with Internet annonymity. Sure, some of you have conversed with him personally and even met him but does that really give you the clear conscience to wash away his stupidity and irresponsibility? You all laugh at the "Darwin Award" nominees who, through thier own stupidity, lose their lives but you have sympathy for this guy? Different kind of action, same kind of moron.
I have much sympathy for his family.
I have much sympathy for his family.
01-03-2006, 01:57 PM
#124
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Originally Posted by E55AMG99
Get off your high horses, people and come down to reality. This immature young adult had many chances to avoid this situation. The first of which was to use a damn seat belt. How many of you have seen the statistics about lack of seatbelt use? Wasn't he 17 years old? Anyone been to driver training as recent as him (last 12-18 months)? I guess he wasn't paying attention or didn't beleive the information to be credible. The second way he could have avoided the situation was to pull over for the police and accept the consequences of his actions. Instead, he chose to not only risk (end) his life but to endanger that of his passenger and everyone on the street that night. You or someone you love could have been injured that night by his selfish and senseless actions. You are all here acting like he was some great friend when in reality, he was just another spoiled brat with Internet annonymity. Sure, some of you have conversed with him personally and even met him but does that really give you the clear conscience to wash away his stupidity and irresponsibility? You all laugh at the "Darwin Award" nominees who, through thier own stupidity, lose their lives but you have sympathy for this guy? Different kind of action, same kind of moron.
I have much sympathy for his family.
I have much sympathy for his family.
You are entitled to your opinion as much as we are, but I must suplicate for you to try and be a little less harsh with your stubborn remarks. He's gone, let him rest and be at ease.
-Peace
01-03-2006, 02:24 PM
#125
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Originally Posted by shadowgriffen
You are entitled to your opinion as much as we are, but I must suplicate for you to try and be a little less harsh with your stubborn remarks. He's gone, let him rest and be at ease.
-Peace
-Peace
