Should alignment have compensated for larger 18" rims/tires ?
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From: Amber waves of grain.
2000 CLK430 Cabriolet
Should alignment have compensated for larger 18" rims/tires ?
Should alignment have compensated for larger 18" rims/tires ?
New front tires, 225/40R18 were mounted/balanced by dealer, with alignment by dealer in Oct, 2011. Front LCA’s, lower ball joints, center link, damper, shocks, also new in Oct/2011.
Today, after 20,887 miles, noticed excessive tire wear on front inside edge of tread. Front LCA’s new in Oct/2011. Dealer said no camber adjustment necessary, said was within specs. Vehicle has regular LCA bolts on both sides–no camber bolts.
Questions:
1. Is dealer wrong (FOS), again ? Should alignment have compensated for larger 18" rims/tires ?
2. Would failure to consider rim/tire size result in mis-alignment, resulting in excessive tire wear from camber.
3. Would these worn tires be cause of 60 MPH shimmy ?
Thanks
New front tires, 225/40R18 were mounted/balanced by dealer, with alignment by dealer in Oct, 2011. Front LCA’s, lower ball joints, center link, damper, shocks, also new in Oct/2011.
Today, after 20,887 miles, noticed excessive tire wear on front inside edge of tread. Front LCA’s new in Oct/2011. Dealer said no camber adjustment necessary, said was within specs. Vehicle has regular LCA bolts on both sides–no camber bolts.
Questions:
1. Is dealer wrong (FOS), again ? Should alignment have compensated for larger 18" rims/tires ?
2. Would failure to consider rim/tire size result in mis-alignment, resulting in excessive tire wear from camber.
3. Would these worn tires be cause of 60 MPH shimmy ?
Thanks
Last edited by Pancho; May 2, 2012 at 10:29 AM.
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From: SCV SoCal
2002 CLK430
I feel for you man. Tires must be the highest normal maintenance items on these car.
"I think", on a CLK, , some camber wear is expected. A LOT of camber is not. It may be a combination of things. Are the insides worn down AND there appears to be feathering? That would be camber plus toe. Underinflation (tire) plus factory camber specs (on the high end) causes my car to go through tires. I run between 40 and 45 PSI. When I ran 30 to 35 I had (what I considered to be) excessive wear (the people who sell me tires thought it was normal wear, but they are biased). You have new shocks, so there isn’t any sign of cupping, right?
Bad tires can cause a shimmy. When I get home tonight I can post my last alignment specs. You can compare them to whatever the dealer gave you.
"I think", on a CLK, , some camber wear is expected. A LOT of camber is not. It may be a combination of things. Are the insides worn down AND there appears to be feathering? That would be camber plus toe. Underinflation (tire) plus factory camber specs (on the high end) causes my car to go through tires. I run between 40 and 45 PSI. When I ran 30 to 35 I had (what I considered to be) excessive wear (the people who sell me tires thought it was normal wear, but they are biased). You have new shocks, so there isn’t any sign of cupping, right?
Bad tires can cause a shimmy. When I get home tonight I can post my last alignment specs. You can compare them to whatever the dealer gave you.
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I drive what I drive
Usually changing wheels or tires dont change your alignment specs. The only time alignment specs change is when you lower/raise your car and if you hit a curb. Other than that, it should still be in spec. I'd go to a regular alignment shop for $50 and ask them to check it for you. Their computer systems know what specs your car should be in.
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From: SCV SoCal
2002 CLK430
My last specs were (w/o driver)
Front
Caster: Left 4.73° / Right 4.59°
Camber: Left -1.08° / Right -1.37°
Toe: Left 0.06" / Right 0.11"
Rear
Camber: Left -1.67° / Right -1.92°
Toe: Left 0.05" / Right 0.17"
Front
Caster: Left 4.73° / Right 4.59°
Camber: Left -1.08° / Right -1.37°
Toe: Left 0.06" / Right 0.11"
Rear
Camber: Left -1.67° / Right -1.92°
Toe: Left 0.05" / Right 0.17"
Thread Starter
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From: Amber waves of grain.
2000 CLK430 Cabriolet
Marcus, I got no such info from the dealer, just a receipt for $149.00, so I have no specs to reflect their work.
No cupping, but don't know what you mean by "feathering", but the wear area seems to have a relatively straight edge to it.
Thanks for the interesting info Re. tire pressure. In Boston, where I had my car for about 9 years, I kept my tires hard at 44 PSI. to protect my rims from the destructive pot holes. I didn't have them hard Re. wear. Moved to Midwest 3 years ago, and roads are far superior, so have been running at 34 PSI, but seems I should run them hard again to help with camber wear.
After I replaced the front end parts listed in my OP (Did work myself.), and after the alignment, my vehicle was riding, handling, steering, as smoothly as when it was new--absolutely no (NO) shimmy. I was amazed, and verbalized it. Now the shimmy has crept back, and it is likely the tires.
Here is a photo of one of my front tires.
Questions:
1. Is this within the reasonable rate of camber wear for 20,887 miles (Might be, I don't know.) at about 34 PSI?
2. How many miles do you get out of a set of tires--front, rears ?
3. What tire pressure do you run on the rears ?
4. Are non-dealer alignments available/reliable for this vehicle, and would a non-dealer understand the camber bolt thing that MB uses?
Thanks
No cupping, but don't know what you mean by "feathering", but the wear area seems to have a relatively straight edge to it.
Thanks for the interesting info Re. tire pressure. In Boston, where I had my car for about 9 years, I kept my tires hard at 44 PSI. to protect my rims from the destructive pot holes. I didn't have them hard Re. wear. Moved to Midwest 3 years ago, and roads are far superior, so have been running at 34 PSI, but seems I should run them hard again to help with camber wear.
After I replaced the front end parts listed in my OP (Did work myself.), and after the alignment, my vehicle was riding, handling, steering, as smoothly as when it was new--absolutely no (NO) shimmy. I was amazed, and verbalized it. Now the shimmy has crept back, and it is likely the tires.
Here is a photo of one of my front tires.
Questions:
1. Is this within the reasonable rate of camber wear for 20,887 miles (Might be, I don't know.) at about 34 PSI?
2. How many miles do you get out of a set of tires--front, rears ?
3. What tire pressure do you run on the rears ?
4. Are non-dealer alignments available/reliable for this vehicle, and would a non-dealer understand the camber bolt thing that MB uses?
Thanks
Last edited by Pancho; May 3, 2012 at 12:47 PM.
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From: SCV SoCal
2002 CLK430
I replace my front and rear tires at the same time. The mileage varies based on brand (no surprise there). Continentals have lasted the longest. My ContiSport Contact 2’s lasted about 38K (miles). My current Continental ExtremeContact’s have about 25K on them and they have about half the tread left. In contrast, I had a set of Yokohamas AVS ES100’s that lasted 21K. I've also had two sets of Dunlop Direzza’s and they each lasted 28K. None of these tires have seen track time.
Typically I run 45PSI up front and 46 out back. I use a good gauge and know the number is right.
For me, the dealer is convenient for three reasons: (1) they’ll align a car on the weekend, (2) they don’t charge a fortune and (3) I know they have the right equipment. I interviewed an MB tech for an alignment article I wrote ages ago and I am very confident that their equipment will scream bloody murder if the alignment is off. That said, the last two times I had my car aligned, I used an independent. The indy I used has done suspension work on other vehicles for me in the past and he is good. He is familiar with the camber bolt and uses a Hunter 4 wheel laser alignment system.
Here are some photos from my local MB dealer’s alignment booth. The last two photos are before and after shots of an alignment. Everything in red is out of spec. It’s possible the tech was on his best behavior because he was being interviewed, but he definitely impressed me. According to him, MB alignment techs tend to do a better job, although he is somewhat biased.
Typically I run 45PSI up front and 46 out back. I use a good gauge and know the number is right.
For me, the dealer is convenient for three reasons: (1) they’ll align a car on the weekend, (2) they don’t charge a fortune and (3) I know they have the right equipment. I interviewed an MB tech for an alignment article I wrote ages ago and I am very confident that their equipment will scream bloody murder if the alignment is off. That said, the last two times I had my car aligned, I used an independent. The indy I used has done suspension work on other vehicles for me in the past and he is good. He is familiar with the camber bolt and uses a Hunter 4 wheel laser alignment system.
Here are some photos from my local MB dealer’s alignment booth. The last two photos are before and after shots of an alignment. Everything in red is out of spec. It’s possible the tech was on his best behavior because he was being interviewed, but he definitely impressed me. According to him, MB alignment techs tend to do a better job, although he is somewhat biased.
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From: Amber waves of grain.
2000 CLK430 Cabriolet
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Thread Starter
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From: Amber waves of grain.
2000 CLK430 Cabriolet
Marcus, that's a gem of a posting. I've never seen anything like it. The info about your tire wear is right on target--most helpful. Again, and I've said this often about your postings and help, thank you very much.
Tech at dealership was young, enthusiastic, and I'm sure he had at least 10 MB certificates he can hang on a wall, but my personal experience with dealership shops has not resulted in a favorable opinion of their work.
Short of getting screwed out of $ and tires by another sorry dealer alignment, I would like to get some info Re. how many degrees of correction to apply to this camber problem, then do the installation myself.
1. What would be a safe estimate of degrees of camber correction needed ?
2. Would you categorize the wear on my tire as excessive ?
Proposed interim solution:
If I would like to devise a solution wherein I install and set the camber bolt to a best guess Re. degrees, then have tires remounted and balanced, such that the inside edge of the tire is mounted to the outside edge of the rim, thus providing a less worn inner edge of tread. In this configuration, if the left tire is switched to the right side rim, then the tire will not be rotating backwards. Then I drive on my best guess camber and see how the tire wears.
Marcus, is this feasible, or am I missing some glaring issue that would make this an impractical solution ?
Tech at dealership was young, enthusiastic, and I'm sure he had at least 10 MB certificates he can hang on a wall, but my personal experience with dealership shops has not resulted in a favorable opinion of their work.
Short of getting screwed out of $ and tires by another sorry dealer alignment, I would like to get some info Re. how many degrees of correction to apply to this camber problem, then do the installation myself.
1. What would be a safe estimate of degrees of camber correction needed ?
2. Would you categorize the wear on my tire as excessive ?
Proposed interim solution:
If I would like to devise a solution wherein I install and set the camber bolt to a best guess Re. degrees, then have tires remounted and balanced, such that the inside edge of the tire is mounted to the outside edge of the rim, thus providing a less worn inner edge of tread. In this configuration, if the left tire is switched to the right side rim, then the tire will not be rotating backwards. Then I drive on my best guess camber and see how the tire wears.
Marcus, is this feasible, or am I missing some glaring issue that would make this an impractical solution ?
Last edited by Pancho; May 3, 2012 at 09:54 PM.
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From: SCV SoCal
2002 CLK430
For question number 1; I don’t know. I’ve only attempted to align a car once from home. That was over 30 years ago and I failed miserably.
For question number 2; Yes. It looks to me like the last half-inch (or more) of the inside tread is bald. If the outermost section of the tread is not down to the wear bars, then I’d say something is very wrong with the alignment. If the outermost section of the tread is down to the wear bars, I’d say the alignment still looks pretty far off. In the attached chart, the top picture is feathering and I’ve seen tires where the right side of the drawing is bald.
For your proposal, it couldn’t hurt. You can also check your toe with a two by four and chalk. With the car parked and the tires pointing straight, put a 2x4 against the bottom side of a front tire (see lousy attached photo). The red arrow in the middle is supposed to show the 2x4 is centered. Mark the ground with the chalk at front and back edge of the wood (that’s what the other red arrow show). Now do the same thing on the opposite side of the car. Now move the car and get a tape measurer. There are now four chalk marks on the ground. First measure the distance between the ‘front’ two marks and then the ‘back’ two marks. Write those numbers down. The front two marks should be a little wider than the rear two. How much? I have no idea. However, now you can adjust the tie rods and bring the toe in a little. How much is a little? Heck if I know. Half a turn on each tie rod would be my starting point. Although a real alignment tech may read this and say “Marcus doesn’t know what the hell he’s doing.” They’d be right. I don’t. However, I have ‘seen’ people do this. The good thing is, if you save the numbers and remember to adjust the tie rods equally, you can always put it back and re-measure the distances to ensure you are back where you started. Remember, this is all conjecture on my part. I have never successfully aligned a car. Maybe I had good chalk marks but the camber was off. Who knows. I do remember thinking that this is tougher than it looks.
For question number 2; Yes. It looks to me like the last half-inch (or more) of the inside tread is bald. If the outermost section of the tread is not down to the wear bars, then I’d say something is very wrong with the alignment. If the outermost section of the tread is down to the wear bars, I’d say the alignment still looks pretty far off. In the attached chart, the top picture is feathering and I’ve seen tires where the right side of the drawing is bald.
For your proposal, it couldn’t hurt. You can also check your toe with a two by four and chalk. With the car parked and the tires pointing straight, put a 2x4 against the bottom side of a front tire (see lousy attached photo). The red arrow in the middle is supposed to show the 2x4 is centered. Mark the ground with the chalk at front and back edge of the wood (that’s what the other red arrow show). Now do the same thing on the opposite side of the car. Now move the car and get a tape measurer. There are now four chalk marks on the ground. First measure the distance between the ‘front’ two marks and then the ‘back’ two marks. Write those numbers down. The front two marks should be a little wider than the rear two. How much? I have no idea. However, now you can adjust the tie rods and bring the toe in a little. How much is a little? Heck if I know. Half a turn on each tie rod would be my starting point. Although a real alignment tech may read this and say “Marcus doesn’t know what the hell he’s doing.” They’d be right. I don’t. However, I have ‘seen’ people do this. The good thing is, if you save the numbers and remember to adjust the tie rods equally, you can always put it back and re-measure the distances to ensure you are back where you started. Remember, this is all conjecture on my part. I have never successfully aligned a car. Maybe I had good chalk marks but the camber was off. Who knows. I do remember thinking that this is tougher than it looks.
Last edited by MarcusF; May 4, 2012 at 01:01 AM.
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From: Isla Verde, Puerto Rico
SRT-6
When I installed spacers I had more negative camber. Moving the wheel/tire out results in more negative camber. What's that called .... geometry?
Looking the the picture of your tire, I don't believe the wear was caused by excessive negative camber.
Les
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From: Amber waves of grain.
2000 CLK430 Cabriolet
Have also included pdf of original print out, and my transcription of same.
Have ordered another pair of front tires, and would like to solve this problem before I mount the new tires.
I hope this data is helpful.
What do you think?
FRONT
Caster: Left 4.9̊ / Right 5.1̊
Camber: Left -1.1̊ / Right -0.9̊
Toe: Left 0.23̊ / Right 0.23̊
Total Toe: 0.46̊
REAR
Camber: Left -1.6̊ / Right -1.5̊
Toe: Left 0.28̊ / 0.29̊
Last edited by Pancho; May 13, 2012 at 01:46 PM.
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From: SCV SoCal
2002 CLK430
Based on the specs, you have way too much toe. A little toe helps counteract positive caster. The factory setting for toe on these cars is from 0.06” to 0.14” per side and 0.24” total. You have 0.23” per side and 0.46” total. That’s 50%+ over the maximum spec per side. Looking at the photo, you can see how the inner tread on the tires will scrub with too much toe (out).
Reducing toe to 0.14” on each side (or less) is hopefully all you need. I think 0.14” would be a good starting point, but I’m no alignment tech. An alignment tech may recommend staggering the toe (like 0.08" on the left and 0.14" on the right) to account for road crowns.
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99CLK320,
Poncho you said "If I would like to devise a solution wherein I install and set the camber bolt to a best guess Re. degrees,"
I don't know if your statement wrt to the camber bolt is the same as what I am thinking of but FWIW: There is a MB oem camber bolt made for the C class that locates the lower control arm and bushing that will fit on a CLK as well. I've installed them on my car. Basically you can gain and additional 3 degrees of camber either positive or negative, depending on which way you install the bolts. Because I lowered my car with Vogtland springs and I knew I would need to align the car after the fact these seemed like a very reasonable alternative to the Kmack from camber kits which are rather costly. If you slam your car like Williams007 you need a lot of room to move and Kmack kits will do that for you. With that said though, if you are running at oem height needing additional degrees of camber adjustment should not be an issue. Do a Search for "camber bolts" and you should be able to find the discussion on the topic as well as a part number. there are plenty of threads to look through at https://mbworld.org/forums/search.php?searchid=9069949
I don't know if your statement wrt to the camber bolt is the same as what I am thinking of but FWIW: There is a MB oem camber bolt made for the C class that locates the lower control arm and bushing that will fit on a CLK as well. I've installed them on my car. Basically you can gain and additional 3 degrees of camber either positive or negative, depending on which way you install the bolts. Because I lowered my car with Vogtland springs and I knew I would need to align the car after the fact these seemed like a very reasonable alternative to the Kmack from camber kits which are rather costly. If you slam your car like Williams007 you need a lot of room to move and Kmack kits will do that for you. With that said though, if you are running at oem height needing additional degrees of camber adjustment should not be an issue. Do a Search for "camber bolts" and you should be able to find the discussion on the topic as well as a part number. there are plenty of threads to look through at https://mbworld.org/forums/search.php?searchid=9069949
Last edited by dlbehrns; May 13, 2012 at 08:28 PM.
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From: Amber waves of grain.
2000 CLK430 Cabriolet
Based on the specs, you have way too much toe. A little toe helps counteract positive caster. The factory setting for toe on these cars is from 0.06” to 0.14” per side and 0.24” total. You have 0.23” per side and 0.46” total. That’s 50%+ over the maximum spec per side. Looking at the photo, you can see how the inner tread on the tires will scrub with too much toe (out).
Reducing toe to 0.14” on each side (or less) is hopefully all you need. I think 0.14” would be a good starting point, but I’m no alignment tech. An alignment tech may recommend staggering the toe (like 0.08" on the left and 0.14" on the right) to account for road crowns.
Plan is to get dealer to give me another alignment, free, and two tires, free, and mounting and balancing, free, to compensate me for the bad alignment that destroyed my tires. New tires are already waiting in my garage.
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2002 CLK430
Unfortunately no. That’s because I’m pretty sure the dealer wrench will tell you he doesn’t set toe by inches, he uses degrees / minutes. The conversion from degrees to inches is based on rolling diameter and different wheel offsets can throw factory numbers out the window. I’ve heard the formula is
Degrees = arcsin (toe in inches / rolling diameter of the tire in inches) * (180/pi)
Even if the dealer wrench agrees that is the formula, he’s going to use whatever spec his hunter alignment box tells him.
You could take another approach. You could ask them to put the car on the alignment rack and let you see the alignment screen light up in green (like my last photo) so that you “know” your abnormally wearing tires are on a properly aligned car. The way your tires look, it won’t light up in green. I think it’s going to look a lot more like the third photo. However the dealer may claim it did light up in green back when they last saw it and potholes, curbs, suspension wear, or something else knocked it out of alignment. I’ve been down this road before. In my case (30 years ago with a different car), the wrench had a million outs as to why my car wouldn’t hold an alignment. Another alignment shop didn't have any trouble.
Degrees = arcsin (toe in inches / rolling diameter of the tire in inches) * (180/pi)
Even if the dealer wrench agrees that is the formula, he’s going to use whatever spec his hunter alignment box tells him.
You could take another approach. You could ask them to put the car on the alignment rack and let you see the alignment screen light up in green (like my last photo) so that you “know” your abnormally wearing tires are on a properly aligned car. The way your tires look, it won’t light up in green. I think it’s going to look a lot more like the third photo. However the dealer may claim it did light up in green back when they last saw it and potholes, curbs, suspension wear, or something else knocked it out of alignment. I’ve been down this road before. In my case (30 years ago with a different car), the wrench had a million outs as to why my car wouldn’t hold an alignment. Another alignment shop didn't have any trouble.
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99CLK320,
I took my car to the dealer for an aligment after I installed aftermarket springs, shocks and those camber bolts I mentioned earlier. The cost for an aligment was $200 but because of a $100 coupon I thought I was going to half my cost. Anyway...I get a call the next day from the service manager saying that my lower control arm bushings were shot, my valve cover gaskets were leaking and I needed a new fuel filter and it would only cost me $1100. At 30K miles I asked with an attitude. Needless to say, they did not align the car and they no longer get any of my business unless I need an oem part quickly. Pancho, just take the hit and walk away from the dealer and don't go back. Where do you live? Certainly there is a good MB indy in your area.
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From: Amber waves of grain.
2000 CLK430 Cabriolet
This shoddy alignment was the only dealer work done on my car in more than 7 years. I do everything on my car. I knew better, but I took the advice of an over rated local grease monkey indy that said I should go to the dealer for an alignment. I know that dealers are not worth a sh_t. I will find a better indy.
Last edited by Pancho; May 18, 2012 at 02:02 AM.
