ProjectC55

Man sorry to here that mario.Then those guys are the worst man.

I wanna use the same stuff you mentioned above. This is the smart way to go.Fuel and ignition timing.Split second is the ticket.

Can you give me a price on a charger?

Well my 5.5L conversion has been a great break thru and a winner so far so now I'm going to attack this S/C thing with the same success and zeal.Wish me luck Mario!

E55Cent

Good luck, I"m guessing you or I could call Vortec and get a blower for $600 to $800 and $125 more to polish it. The VSQ are the quiet ones. The SpiltSecond PC???? are about $225 and Mark is the owner and can do real time adjustment from his laptop. You can can do it on a dyno to make sure you are not running to rich or lean.

I know GregC, built a custom bracket for his Powerdyne but he used the bracket that mounts on the passenger valve cover from HPS and some other small stuff. He has done a great job with the whole custom kit. I have a lot to learn from GregC and some of the safety he has in his kit.

I will be getting the SpiltSecond next month and the larger fuel pump. I might wait to put in the Aquamist chemical cooler till Spring. The temps have been around 65 for a while now.

ProjectC55

Mario have you dynoed your car?

gregc

Guys,

After installing the FTC1-024 unit from Split, I have been driving around for a week with no tuning. I wanted to see that it worked OK. All seems fine.

the unit is 3 times larger that the standard MAF conditioner. Today I am going to play a little with the timing. I plan to reduce timing ~1.5degree per psi of boost.

I am waiting for my 2.25in pulley from a company in WI so I can get ~8-8.3psi. Today, I get a max of ~7psi at about 5800.

E55Cent

Greg, I'm glad your car is running good, any idea what hp and tq to the ground you are running? I'm sure your car is going to be crazy fast with that new smaller pulley. Are you going to keep the stock injectors or upgrade to the next level?

I could still use your help on the fuel pump #?
Mario

gregc

pumps flow different amounts under different conditions. Typically less voltage to the pump, higher pressure, and higher temperature means less flow out of the pump. The flow numbers and max HP approximations I am reporting are the numbers Bosch supplied for the various models and I do not have information for other pressures or voltages yet. The distributor did say that the flow and HP numbers are a little conservative.

Pump #1: Bosch 0 580 254 979

This is the pump I hear referred to as the 310 LPH pump frequently.

Bosch Rating: 165 LPH at 72.5 PSI and 13.5 V

Bosch Rating: 230 LPH at 43.5 PSI and 13.5 V

Bosch Approximate Crank HP rating at 72.5 PSI and 13.5 V: 600 HP

Best Price I Found: $219.00


Pump #2: Bosch 0 580 254 044

This is the pump I hear referred to as the 420 LPH pump frequently.

Bosch Rating: 200 LPH at 72.5 PSI and 13.5 V

Bosch Approximate Crank HP rating at 72.5 PSI and 13.5 V: 750 HP

Best Price I Found: $220.00


Pump #3: Bosch B 261 205 413

This pump is the same pump as pump #2, but this pump is flow tested and rated at 116 PSI instead of 72.5 PSI. What Bosch does is flow some of the pumps and sort them out. This pump they will guarantee to flow its rated capacity at 116 PSI instead of 72.5 PSI. Since lower peressure generally means more flow, all else equal, I think this pump will outflow pump #2 at typical working rail pressures (60 - 80 PSI) or at least maintain a high flow rate if rail pressures above 72.5 PSI are required in high boost / high HP applications.

Bosch Rating: 200 LPH at 116 PSI and 13.5 V

Bosch Approximate Crank HP rating at 116 PSI and 13.5 V: 750 HP

Best Price I Found: $382.78

A side note on pump #3 is that it is only available from a Bosch Motorsports dealer, which is different than a regular shop that sells Bosch products.

Obviously at lower pressures the pumps will flow more volume. Also, with the addition of a voltage booster, the pumps will flow more volume. Therefore, it is apparant that the pumps can support more power than the Bosch Motorsports representative indicated given more favorable conditions (less pressure and more voltage).

E55Cent

Wow Gre,g that is some great info! I will have to find out where and who I can buy from to get the tested #3 pump. Which one are you using for you 55 S/C motor?
thanks again
Mario

Dan Wang

I think greg c said he used 0 580 254 982 - 390 (which is none of the above).

gregc

I used the one that HPS said becasue I purchase a ling time ago before I found this site.

Go to:
http://www.performancedepot.com/prod...=101&dealer=no

I found the site by google 0580254982. Its $166 and a good price. I think this is basically the same as #1 most likly.

I have found that with a boost-a-pump, I am not seeing any pressure drop. You all should be fine with #1 at the boost we are running at.

You MAY be able to get away with #2 or 3 with NO boost-a pump, but no idea.

What I did find is that the voltage to the pump from the Mercedes is only 12.5 or so volts. Each car is different. That is what makes the boost-a-pump a nice setup is becasue it is a conditioned output.

It takes a few hours to install a boost a pump, so if you are not a handly person or wish to go most probably the less costly method, you may want to try the #2 or #3 pump?? No idea as I have not tested.

Dan Wang

Greg, any idea what the specs are on the stock Bosch fuel pump?

joeybenz106

hey can u send me a pm about tunning the car? im really intrested in it

ProjectC55

Gosh I cant wait to S/C mine.

Greg good info and great job.Now let's get that car dynoed so we can see the whp and A/F ratio's. Not to mention the hp improvement from the piggy back system.

gregc

I played with the new split second unit this week on the timing run. With my OBD-2 unit, I found that the WOT timing is around 20 degrees, going to 25 at 6K. This is about the same as most all 4-5L cars. I set the timing retard high to see if it worked, while looking with a scope. All is great.
I have setup the unit for 1.5 degrees retard per pound boost. I will set the final air/fuel with the MAF conditioner when I get the new pulley.

What I did find out "please read" is that the 5L 11:1 engine starts to Detonate at 3psi if the air/fuel is 12:1 or higher. BE CAREFULL ALL!

what that means is that all of us with any type of blower DO need a FMU that increases fuel pressure, thus in turn lowering the A/R ratio in boost.

Most all the blower people will say a conservative is 11.5:1 A/F is ideal. If you feel good you can get 12-12.5 with race gas or methonal injection.

I hope to complete tuning sometime just after Christmas and get to the Dyno.

I can say that I am impressed/not impressed with the Powerdyne. The Powerdyne has a mush better boost curve than the Vortech and Procharger, which I have had in the past. It' still not a roots unit, but it has done well. I have found the the BD-11A unit is at about max RPM on a CLK55. IF,IF I am able to get 8psi with the new pulley will be a test. I am on the edge, as I must say I am impressed with the air flow abilities of the Mercedes 5.4L.

One more, to keep fuel pressure up with boost, as the FMU is supposed to do, requires I set the boost-a-pump to 25% increase in voltage. That is about 15 Volts. Since I am at about 75psi at full boost that means those pumps I found may work. You may be able to use a FMU and upgraded fuel pump in place of the kenne-bell boost-a-pump. I am still not 100% such with a system runnign 7-8psi boost.


I wish I could find a machine shop to make a bracket and 1-2 curved tubes. The cost of this system is not that much. I hate to see blower unit systems selling for $3-4K for all the other cars in the world, and the few that sell mercedes units charge 8-15K!!

dragonAMG

gregc - have you ran your car at the track? What time or numbers are you laying down on the dyno?

Dan Wang

gregc, you wanna come to California to work on my car?

mtimmy

EXACTLY Greg.... LA then SF trip. that would be good., hahahaha...........

nice write up man...

c55m8o

GregC ... You've provided a wealth of info. You're doing exactly what I wanted to do. I'm in your debt.

BTW, isn't it just that the Powerdyne and Roots have different curves for their efficiency? That the powerdyne is better near max RPM, while roots is better near min RPM? Also, does the Powerdyne have a lower increase in charge air temperature vs the temperature increase of the same pressure that a roots blower would produce?

again,

Josh K

You're right about the power curve - centrifugal's pull harder and harder the higher they go, while positive displacement blowers blow their wad at the beginning and then peter out a bit. All centrifugals have MUCH lower discharge temps than comparable positive displacement superchargers.

gregc

The truth is that I am in CA often, going too san jose and san fran.

I would rerally like to see that cl blower install. If you guys want to tag up for a coffee in jan that would be fine.

these cars keep my brain busy.

Happy Christmas to all you people.

What is in the agenda for the group this year? We are off to visit some family in CO Spring, then off to ski for a couple of days. I hear it is reral cold this year.

others??

c55m8o

Plus, isn't the air blower setup is a lot lighter then either Kleemann or HPS? Josh, love that car'a yours (from your supercharger thread on club202.com). Ya still got nuth'n but luv for the HoP setup? Figure'n you got a bit over about a 100hp gain with your setup? Makes me wonder if that would translate proportionately to the 5.4L engine (needs 25% more airflow after all).

Josh K

I'm still loving my setup. Now over 2k completely trouble-free (and hard driven) miles. I actually got about 125hp gain on my setup (216-221 before, 343-345 after) using stock software. Custom ECU is in the works...

ProjectC55

I think that you may have two small issues.One may be that your probably running close to or nearly exceeding the injector cycle duty(over 80%)be care ful.And that you possibly should use a fuel pumo with more capacity and fuel pressure. It would be nice to know how many CC's are used in the W211 E55 or SL65 and I would find out what fuel pump the W211 E55 or SL65 uses.

I have cured a lot of fuel issues by using larger injectors and a Toyota Supra TT fuel pump in my 413awhp Eagle Talon.The car runs pig rich but thanx to the use of the AEM standalone I have ,my tuner has been able to lean out my fuel curve and take care of my timing.I ran 21 lbs of boost when the car put out 413awhp which is about 500hp at the crank.I'm using 660 cc injectors.I'm not sure how many lbs that is but it's not a hard thing to figure out.

Greg you already have the piggyback which I think is excellent,however I think you should research inj capacity and possibly look into getting a larger fuel pump that will also deliver ample fuel pressure to your equation.Not to sound like a jerk Greg but basically what you are going thru with the fuel I've been there done that.I frankly believe you'll get to your goals safely and I'm following your progress closely because I want to go F/I on my C55.

I am now building another motor for the talon as an upgrade(Ross pistons,crower rods) because I want to put down 550awhp safely.I know I'm going to have to up the boost but once again I will need to address the fuel issue with larger capacity injectors.I already have a 255L/hr high flow fuel pump on my car.

Good luck to ya Greg.

mtimmy

Greg.,,. I am in the Sf Sj area., if you would like to have a coffee or dinner.... shot me up... ..!!! and we can have some funs in it...

ProjectC55

Josh would'nt you like to have the flexibility of the Split second piggyback that Greg C is using?Custom ECU= more time and $$$ vs time spent using a piggyback but to each his own.Hey I could be wrng about time spent but I know custom ECU tuning is $$$$$.Plus if you ever want more pwr you have to get the unit reprogrammed all over again.Just my .02

Josh K

Well yes and no. A piggyback is nice, but the ECU setup I'm talking about wouldn't be a mail order thing, it would be tuned in house with the car on the dyno by the same shop that did the supercharger. All of the ECU changes would be directly based on what the car and a/f did on the dyno. The shop would have all of my ECU maps on file and should I ever modify the car further, they would be where I take it to have the work done and the ECU would be adjusted to compensate. If the comparison was between mail order tuning (which I wouldn't even consider on a f/i car) then a piggyback over an ECU would be a no brainer, but if the shop I use has the ability to tune ECU's then I think that's a better choice.