mbenzman

I've though about this and there's more to the sludge than the oil vapor. The other part of the sludge is the EGR system. It gives you the carbon to go with the sludge and eliminating this is not going to happen.
So I will just plan on more frequent air intake system flushes to prevent the buildup.
Rich

NitrogenBalance

So where is the carbon introduced into the intake? Along with the oil vapor through the valve cover vents??

My setup has 3 breather lines from the valve covers all dumping into a catch can which is vented to atmosphere. The intake tract has three 3/8ish inputs at the TB, Manifold, and discharge pipe from the S/C. All of them are capped off at the moment. From what I gather my intake should only see Air and Fuel at this point.....I think....

mbenzman

Look for your egr valve. You should have one. The stock location is beside the throttle housing on the rear of the intake passenger side. That's where you'll get the carbon introduced into the intake.
What S.C. setup do you have?
From your description, it sounds as if your catch can setup has no positive means of ventilation. No engine vacuum applied to the crankcase venting or pump at all. In which case you would have any oil vapors at all.
Have any pics?
Rich

NitrogenBalance

No pics at the moment, or at least without the engine cover on. I took a pic of yours and pointed out the inlets that were capped off. The TB is near the headlight now pre-blower. The discharge pipe from the S/C has a inlet where the TB would have been so 2 capped off total at the stock TB location. The TB inlet has what I believe to be the gas tank vent going into it. The line that runs parrallel with the fuel line up the d-side firewall goes into the TB inlet. The SC system is an HPS Gen1. It was installed and finished up by a really good supra guy who recomended I vent the valve cover breather lines like I did with the catch can. HPS has them going back into the manifold and TB. From what was explained to me is that the blower would end up pulling in some of the gunk which would be bad to have that gunk build up on the rotors of the blower. The car runs great and made more power than what was expected so I never questioned this setup. Something funky about this???

mbenzman

You really have to have a positive crankcase venting system. without one you will cause your engine oil to breakdown fast from the blowby gases. I would at least find a little electric pump to pull fresh air through the crankcase. Without one and very frquent oil changes you can expect sludge no matter what oil you run.
Did you find your egr valve yet?
Rich

NitrogenBalance

The blowby gases and posistive pressure of the crankcase would be routed through the catch can filter into the atmosphere I thought. You can see it on a cold morning venting throught the minifilter. From what I gather as long as crankcase pressure is greater than atmosphere the CC is venting. All the excess moisture should be taken car of from the engine running temps and all the gunk laden liquid should be caught in the can right??

Reading about other forced induction cars I was informed that this is needed due to the fact that the intake sees both vacuum and posistive boost pressure now. Pulling the tainted charge through the SC rotors has to be a bad thing. I've also run across readings where the dirty charge can negativly effect A/F ratios causing them to run lean on F/I applications. Less clean H20 introduced.

Thoughts on added vacuum to this makes sense but not through the previous setup which would gunk the S/C and intake tract. Unless the catch can caught all the crap, which could still effect A/F ratio as the air charge would be still effected by the cc gasses. The can just filters the liquid and heavy junk within the cc blowby.

I'm currently checking out a cc evac system which uses the exhaust manifolds and weld in nozzels that pull from the exhaust to create a little crankcase vacuum. The electic pump is also a possiblilty. The exhaust method seems to make sense at the moment, burning off the gases through exhaust.

Now in a dry sump configuration, too much vacuum on the cc venting could be a bad thing correct. I'm not expert and kinda confused now. I think I'm close to understanding though.

mbenzman

NO!! Only the excess pressure releases and no fresh air will be there to remove moisture and blowby gases, (precombustion blowby and post combustion blowby, gasoline and it's additives such as alcohol for instance) will always be present since there is NO FRESH air introduced anymore to flush the crankcase of these gases.
The normal system sucks air in through a hose attached to the air intake below the mass air flow meter before the throttle housing (No vacuum, but metered) to the left valve cover. The air can travel through the engine by the low pressure created by the the intake manifold vacuum being connected to the othewr connections on both valve covers. That's why they call it a positive crankcase ventilation system. Not crankcase venting.
You need more than venting. Until then change the oil a lot.
Rich

NitrogenBalance

Ok. I opened microsoft paint.....LOL

This is the current setup.


This is what I think you are refering to...I also appreciate your help even though I'm kinda hyjacking your thread.


Would this mimic the stock config but utilize a catch can for preventing heavier slug from getting back in........the second diagram removes the filter to atmosphere and returns a line to the intake where it should see vacuum right?? Then having fresh air available before the SC and aft the MAF??

mbenzman

NitrogenBalance

Thanks Man!! I appreciate your thoughts. I'm surprised that so few have commented or thought about PCV options and setups. I quick google and you find every other aftermarket forum disscus them at length. I defenitly learned something.

The car is geting stored away in a few weeks so we are going to attempt some R&D on an exhaust vacuum crankcase evac system. It is going to have weld in nozzels into the manifol 4-1 collector area with one way check valves to prevent exhaust blowback into the CC. nozzels are angle cut and welded at a 45 degree. We are going to attempt to install an inline caddilacc vacuum pump that will work on a sensor switch. When the exhaust backpressure is up and isn't creating vacuum >5in the electric pump will be on. When the exhaust evac creates vaccum the electric motor will shut off. Hopefully both sources of vacuum will be 50/50 input. This way the cc gases will be burnt off in the exhaust rather than the comb. chambers. I found a blown cobra that had this exact setup with really good results in which the cc was seeing vacuum throughout the enitre rpm from idle to WOT. It picked up a little Hp as well.

It this setup puts my foot deeper in sh*t I'm just gonna go back to what you recomended and burn off the damn cc gases as normal.

So how is the intake??? Back to topic. When are you starting to take work orders....LOL.

mbenzman

I'll be reporting on the performance side of this deal on Project Chrome Dome.

Your welcome on the advice, It's what I do as I own a Benz repair shop.

Back to the subject, 1 65 mile drive and pulled the intake back down for problems and there's already oil in the manifold. I will be reviewing ideas as this is not over! I own two of these engines!
Rich

NitrogenBalance

65 miles and the intake is already seeing oil huh?? Wow. That just adds to my idea of wanting an entirely crap free intake. What would you say is the main cause, excessive blowby, no oil/air serperator, too much cc pressure??

Couldn't you just add an oil/air serperator or catch can inline with the stock PCV configuration. At 65 miles with oil accumulating already I would think the use of one would be good. I wonder how much of the oil and cc gases get into the combustion chambers. It just doesn't seem effecient power wise.

Keep up the work as its pioneering!!

ProjectC55

For my Eagle TALON TSI I have eliminated the hose that leaves the valve cover and runs to the intake hse and attatched it to a catch can.Then there was another hose that left the back of the valve cover where the pcv valve is located and went to the intake mani. I capped the inlet piece on the intake mani and now have the hose leaving the pcv valve in back of the intake mani to the other port in the catchcan. The catch can has a vent on top of it with a valve on the bottom of the can. It's amazing how when I open the valve in the bottom of the catch can,how much junk,soot,water incld comes out of the can. My EGR is blcked off by a plate at the throttle body. Car is a beast. I must find a way to do something similar to the MB to avoid getting all this crap in the intake mani. Exh gases incl.

By the way,nitro where did u purchase the chk vale if that's what you have installed.

ProjectC55

Benzman is this whole intake porting mod a pain in the *** to do to these particular mani's for someone who has never directly ported anything himself b4? I have access to the tools to do this. Taking apart the whole intake setup is a breeze for me as I have my 4.3L motor sitting right here. Also two blown 5.0L M113 motors sitting in my buddy's garage with mani's.

mbenzman

The dyno shows about 25 hp at the crank. 18.7 improvent at the wheels over the other CLK55's dynoed today.
Yes, an extreme pain, and it's not just about bigger, I've been into the manifold 4 times and probably will be at least one more time. The Mercedes guy present said there was no power left in that manifold before the dyno, he got surprised because I told him to drive the car Friday night when he said it.
But be patient as is isn't easy to squeek the power out of and I'm still learning what the M113 will need.
The big surprise today after the CLK55 was when I told everyone that My 500E would make more power than the my modded 5.5 liter AMG engine, AND IT DID!!!!! About 380-385 hp at the crank, normally aspirated on 87 octane!
Rich
Drag races tomorrow.

rsr911

TESTIFY BROTHER!!!!!!

I got a ride in that beautiful CLK55 Cab of yours. WOW what a difference.

This was the night before the dyno runs and even by the seat of the pants there was a difference.
This should finally put to rest the debate.

Thanks again Rich. A genuine pleasure meeting you and your wife and son.

All the best!!!
Owen

NitrogenBalance

So in this case your setup is similar to mine. However, as mbenz stated, we have no posistive means of bringing fresh air into the crankcase using vacuum. My crankcase is only vented with a catch can which seems to be what you have as well. My intake manifold still sees the EGR line, not so sure about removing that, or if we even could. I would think the car wouldn't like it. Did you get any CEL's from blocking the EGR in your talon?? If your catch can is hooked up to your intake it will see vacuum but will draw fresh air through the can's filter and back into the intake rather than the CC. I need to block off my catch can filter, and run a line with a check valve to the intake manifold. The check valve will prevent from me sending boost into the CC. Then I need to run the 3rd PVC line to atmosphere with a filter to draw in the fresh air. I think........The valves can be found at places like summitracing or jegs. Any pictures?? you can PM also if you want.

MBENZMAN:

What happened the 4 times you opened the intake back up? Was it to remove more material, smooth things out, etc?? What did it look like, dirty, oily, sludgy?? The work looks awesome and an 18whp gain is worthy news also!!

I wouldn't mind just having mine cleaned and polished, as I'm determined to keep the intake charge clean

mbenzman

Owen,
It was great to meet you too, I enjoyed myself immensely. My Wife's health issues worsened Monday a.m. She had to go to see the Dr. that morning. It's going to be expensive!!!
Rich

ProjectC55

Why are you concerned about fresh air entering the mani? That's the job for my turbocharger! Why would the CC need fresh air?

You'll never prevent some boost from getting into the CC. Boost will always get past the piston rings.Hopefully not too much though.

PS, no CEL's from blocking off the EGR.

mbenzman

Without PCV (positive crankcase ventilation you will have buildup of moisture and gasoline fumes (from blowby) forming acids . This WILL cause breakdown of the motor oil causing conditions which will turn the oil to sludge, and possible etching and scoring of internal engine parts. The onset of these failures is subject to a lot of variables but will happen in short order. This is what Mercedes has been suffering from because of their FSS system and it's suggested 10,000 mile oil change intervals. And that's with a functioning positive crankcase ventilation system!!
Mercedes keeps backing up on the extended oil change intervals by switching from conventional to synthetic and now they just changed to a suggested thicker oil, 0w40 now bad, 5w40 now good! What next? How about we stop kidding ourselves and change the oil normally and use thicker oil, I do! I reset cutomers fss systems all the time to lower mileage intervals.
A funtional pcv system is required on all engines. The problem with a blown or supercharged engine is you need to redesign the pcv with check valves to prevent the crankcase from being pressurized by intake boost. this could push oil past the seals or even seals themselves out and cause the early failure of them at the least. You won't be getting positive crankcase ventilation at this time same as you don't during full throttle on a n/a engine, but it resumes with any less than full throttle application.
Now here's a tidbit that will make you WANT A real pcv sytstem. There are companies that fab belt driven pcv pumps. These apply some vacuum (maybe 15-20 inches) on the crackcase, even at full throttle. On the dyno this has proven to make up an additional 20 H.P. despite the power it takes to run them. Why is this possible? The crankshaft, rods and pistons all have to move the crankcase gases around. This wastes power that is now not avaiable for use elsewhere, Another trick is to Knife edge the crankshaft leading edges and use antifriction coatings on the surface to free up horsepower. All these work, even at condition where a partial vacuum is created, So if you add pressure to the crankcase instead of evacuating it, You can tell now that your losses would increase, so at least designing a system that doesn't allow pressure would make more horsepower available at the wheels.
BMW actually uses a crankcase pessure regulator but they are troublesome. But it will improve economy and part throttle horsepower too by reducing rotational losses at part throttle (vacuum in the crankcase). It you get a chance, take the oil cap off with a BMW running and you can hear it sucking and it will start running rougher because the vacuum is leaking.
There's today's book. And I will let you know about the manifold when I am ready, not just yet. I have too many irons in the fire right now. I can however sell you a really nice new replacement manifold with the belt driven whirlygig in it now though! LOL
Rich

ProjectC55

I do have a PCV in my valve cover ,with a hose leaving it,leading to the catch can. There is another hose leaving my valve cover and going to the otherside of the catch can. This is on my F/I car. Is there anything possibly wrng with this setup?

mbenzman

It depends on how it's setup. Is the pcv a one way check valve that doesn't allow the boost pressure to enter the engine? If so it's probably ok.

ProjectC55

Well it's the stck Mitsu PCV valve so i would imagine so. The hose from the end of the PCV valve used to lead to a fitting on my intake mani which I capped off. So the hose from the pcv valve now goes to the catch can.

mbenzman

This doesn't sound like a pcv system, only a oil separator (catch can) ventilation system. If I understand you right, when it was connected to the manifold vacuum, then it was a PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) without being connected to some souce that will draw, or pump fresh air in, it is only ventilation.
The preferred method would be one that would provide a partial vacuum on the crankcase as it would help fuel economy and part throttle response. I understand people seem to be very concerned about oil in the intake but it's the easiest way to have a pcv system. I have found the oil will take a long time to cause any issues, periodic intake flushing will clean it up.
Rich

NitrogenBalance

Thanks MBenzman, as I now fully understand the PCV system. If I ever meet you I owe you a cold beer or two. Who knows how long I would have drove around with just a vented CC still changing oil at 5K. It seems like coolcarlski has the same setup as mine where it is just vented through a catch can.

With two PCV lines on his talon I would think that the first would connect the catch can/manifold with a one-way check valve. The can's filter should be pluged up or I would think it would bleed off vacuum. The second line should connect to a filter to atmosphere where it can pull in fresh air. Under vacuum the catch should hopefully stop most of the heavier gunk. I think this is right....from once again no expert.

Just a tid bit of info about the exhaust evac system I wanted to try out, in case anyone was wondering. Our exhaust rarely if ever see's no backpressure unless it was maybe modified heavily. It seems as if you need a drag racing type setup to make the exhaust evac work. An exhaust system that flows freely with little to no backpressure is what makes it work from what I've gathered. I could only find success with these on domestic drag monsters. Too bad as it sounded like an awesome idea.

HotRod magazine once installed two late modle cobra air pumps backwards to the CC and it created 10-12in of vacuum on the CC. It was on a BB chevy and it picked up like 8hp or so. I may look into that if the pumps are cheap. Otherwise it checkvalve to the manilfold in hopes that the catch can does it's job.