HPS versus Kleeman--Who wins?
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clk55
HPS versus Kleeman--Who wins?
Timster got his HPS, others rave about Kleemann. I've been debating for months whether to invest $20,000 (with labor) on a kleeman. My 55 is plenty fast, but I want more. Timster's install looks great (not sure if its intercooled though). I agree with some other posters that if Kleemann is so safe, why not warrantee it.
Also, does anyone know if MB considered Kleeman to supercharge its new AMG's, and why it chose IHI.
It would be great to get a group discount from Kleeman if we banded together and approached them. Thoughts?
Also, does anyone know if MB considered Kleeman to supercharge its new AMG's, and why it chose IHI.
It would be great to get a group discount from Kleeman if we banded together and approached them. Thoughts?
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Re: HPS versus Kleeman--Who wins?
Originally posted by w208amg
Timster got his HPS, others rave about Kleemann. I've been debating for months whether to invest $20,000 (with labor) on a kleeman. My 55 is plenty fast, but I want more. Timster's install looks great (not sure if its intercooled though). I agree with some other posters that if Kleemann is so safe, why not warrantee it.
Also, does anyone know if MB considered Kleeman to supercharge its new AMG's, and why it chose IHI.
It would be great to get a group discount from Kleeman if we banded together and approached them. Thoughts?
Timster got his HPS, others rave about Kleemann. I've been debating for months whether to invest $20,000 (with labor) on a kleeman. My 55 is plenty fast, but I want more. Timster's install looks great (not sure if its intercooled though). I agree with some other posters that if Kleemann is so safe, why not warrantee it.
Also, does anyone know if MB considered Kleeman to supercharge its new AMG's, and why it chose IHI.
It would be great to get a group discount from Kleeman if we banded together and approached them. Thoughts?
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my .02
Even though the new 55 models have a lysholm supercharger too, IHI was probably cheaper to deal with and maybe they didn't want to boost the credibility of Kleemann since they have AMG.
I would consider being on a worthwhile group buy on the Kleemann, but HPS is another alternative. Both systems cost over $100 per horsepower, so its a function of how much you want, a 100hp s/c versus a 200hp s/c. The Kleemann has some strong points, though.
I only went for the extra 67 hp on the 55 and its interesting that the premium for the 55 package over the 430 came out to over $200 a hp ...but that also included the upgraded brakes, engine internals, suspension, and drivetrain... and some options that I can live without. If I had known before about Kleemann, I probably would have stayed with the 430 and gone for it.
I guess the one thing holding me back on the Kleemann now is I'm not sure if I want to have close to 95K in the car when the new E55 will have around 470 hp and cost in the mid seventies.
The 208 still looks better to me than any of the current line, but unless I keep the car forever, resale is another issue...to find a buyer that really wants and understands the value of the car. The E43k that Kleemann had on Ebay didn't reach the reserve but maybe Cory could tell us what they eventually sold it for.
I would consider being on a worthwhile group buy on the Kleemann, but HPS is another alternative. Both systems cost over $100 per horsepower, so its a function of how much you want, a 100hp s/c versus a 200hp s/c. The Kleemann has some strong points, though.
I only went for the extra 67 hp on the 55 and its interesting that the premium for the 55 package over the 430 came out to over $200 a hp ...but that also included the upgraded brakes, engine internals, suspension, and drivetrain... and some options that I can live without. If I had known before about Kleemann, I probably would have stayed with the 430 and gone for it.
I guess the one thing holding me back on the Kleemann now is I'm not sure if I want to have close to 95K in the car when the new E55 will have around 470 hp and cost in the mid seventies.
The 208 still looks better to me than any of the current line, but unless I keep the car forever, resale is another issue...to find a buyer that really wants and understands the value of the car. The E43k that Kleemann had on Ebay didn't reach the reserve but maybe Cory could tell us what they eventually sold it for.
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Data:
Straight from Eatons web site. Temp measured is DELTA or change, addative to ambient. HPS uses about 5psi so see the lower graph.
The tests are done by Eaton with no throttle body and no discharge- the SC is sitting in free air. Adding any restriction to the inlet or discharge will increase discharge temps and hp required to drive on ANY SC. The scenario HPS suggests by saying the measured dischrge temp at full load on boost is an impossiblity of physics- (unless they tested on a 10 degree F day) it would be a compressor of nearly 100% efficiency. No such device exists- turbos are generally considered the kings of efficency at 75%+/-.
Straight from Eatons web site. Temp measured is DELTA or change, addative to ambient. HPS uses about 5psi so see the lower graph.
The tests are done by Eaton with no throttle body and no discharge- the SC is sitting in free air. Adding any restriction to the inlet or discharge will increase discharge temps and hp required to drive on ANY SC. The scenario HPS suggests by saying the measured dischrge temp at full load on boost is an impossiblity of physics- (unless they tested on a 10 degree F day) it would be a compressor of nearly 100% efficiency. No such device exists- turbos are generally considered the kings of efficency at 75%+/-.
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CLK55AMG
Well spoken Tim!! It just blows me away that anyone would spend around $20,000 ( for a Kleemann sc) on a $75,000 car. Trade it and get a new SL55 and be done with it. I feel (and it's my opinion) that you don't get twice the performance, but you pay twice the money for the Kleemann! The HPS is a good altrenative and well priced!
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I'm sure the HPS system works great and it is definitely a legitimate alternative to the Kleemann system.... The question is... Do you want your car to be somewhat fast (stock), really fast (HPS) or beastly fast (Kleemann). Many people who have been in my car (prior to the current round of tuning) were downright frightened by its speed... it is definitely not for the faint of heart.
Timster, I believe CoryU is pounding you in the healthy spirit of competition. If you are happy with what you have, that is all that matters... I do think, however, that your appetite for HP and Torque might grow after some time... hey my car was pushing out close to 500 hp and that wasn't enough for me.
GBD... find me an SL55 for $95K and I'll put my money down. I'll still keep my CLK because the SL55 won't be as fast.
Timster, I believe CoryU is pounding you in the healthy spirit of competition. If you are happy with what you have, that is all that matters... I do think, however, that your appetite for HP and Torque might grow after some time... hey my car was pushing out close to 500 hp and that wasn't enough for me.
GBD... find me an SL55 for $95K and I'll put my money down. I'll still keep my CLK because the SL55 won't be as fast.
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CLK55AMG
Sleestack..... If it were to do over again, I would buy a CLK430 and put the Kleenmann SC on it. But when you have already spent $75,000 on a 55 you ( or I do ) think twice about spending another 16 to 20 thousand on the same car. I see now the way to go is the Kleenmann and the 430. So I can understand why someone that has a 55 would go with the HPS SC rather than spending the extra money on the Kleenmann. You are so right about wanting more HP. To me the 55 isn't that fast,and I want more HP also. I will probably go with the underdrive pulleys and maybe headers and intake. Just waiting to see Evosports new products.
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You are talking to the wrong person.... I'm already in over $170 K on the CLK and have stepped beyond a 5.5 liter engine... I actually think a 55 owner would be more inclined to spend the extra money... if I were you I'd get those headers and pop on a Kleemann ... it will make your head spin. Honestly though, I am well aware that each person has a different budget and I think it is great that there are more alternatives becoming available for Mercedes tuning.
Last edited by Sleestack; Nov 14, 2002 at 07:26 PM.
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Smart Car
Originally posted by Sleestack
I'm sure the HPS system works great and it is definitely a legitimate alternative to the Kleemann system.... The question is... Do you want your car to be somewhat fast (stock), really fast (HPS) or beastly fast (Kleemann). Many people who have been in my car (prior to the current round of tuning) were downright frightened by its speed... it is definitely not for the faint of heart.
Timster, I believe CoryU is pounding you in the healthy spirit of competition. If you are happy with what you have, that is all that matters... I do think, however, that your appetite for HP and Torque might grow after some time... hey my car was pushing out close to 500 hp and that wasn't enough for me.
GBD... find me an SL55 for $95K and I'll put my money down. I'll still keep my CLK because the SL55 won't be as fast.
I'm sure the HPS system works great and it is definitely a legitimate alternative to the Kleemann system.... The question is... Do you want your car to be somewhat fast (stock), really fast (HPS) or beastly fast (Kleemann). Many people who have been in my car (prior to the current round of tuning) were downright frightened by its speed... it is definitely not for the faint of heart.
Timster, I believe CoryU is pounding you in the healthy spirit of competition. If you are happy with what you have, that is all that matters... I do think, however, that your appetite for HP and Torque might grow after some time... hey my car was pushing out close to 500 hp and that wasn't enough for me.
GBD... find me an SL55 for $95K and I'll put my money down. I'll still keep my CLK because the SL55 won't be as fast.
Manypeople are frightened at 100 mph regardless of having or not having S/C. THe dude likes HPS and 10k inhis pocket, what don't you anderstand? I have not seen anymagazines loosing their ckookies over Kleemann S/C. Nor are the cars with Kleemann S/c' are absolutly known as being the fastest, so nuff bull crapp here.
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Originally posted by Timster
You can pull any chart or graph that you want.
But I was there when the took the measurements on my car.
The temperature was measured with a thermocouple that was feed thru a sealed grommet.
The efficiency rating is theoretical number that is a better known as a SWAG. Scientific wiled *** guess. Since the data done by Eaton was not was not take under a load or when the car was moving that is as close as you can get. HPS does not promote/advertise there product as 100% efficient, nobody does. They do not run their S/C above 4 psi, for safety purposes. And of coarse there warranty 4yr/50Kmiles won’t allow them to go higher with out more R&D.
So lighten up a bit, there not even in the Kleeman performance level. There a step down in performance from you. If you want to compete with HPS then lower your performance numbers. I’m not sure why you keep pounding HPS. There a new company that offers an alternative.
Tim
You can pull any chart or graph that you want.
But I was there when the took the measurements on my car.
The temperature was measured with a thermocouple that was feed thru a sealed grommet.
The efficiency rating is theoretical number that is a better known as a SWAG. Scientific wiled *** guess. Since the data done by Eaton was not was not take under a load or when the car was moving that is as close as you can get. HPS does not promote/advertise there product as 100% efficient, nobody does. They do not run their S/C above 4 psi, for safety purposes. And of coarse there warranty 4yr/50Kmiles won’t allow them to go higher with out more R&D.
So lighten up a bit, there not even in the Kleeman performance level. There a step down in performance from you. If you want to compete with HPS then lower your performance numbers. I’m not sure why you keep pounding HPS. There a new company that offers an alternative.
Tim
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Uhh... I don't think i was ******* Timster but that's allright. Actually, Automobile magazine reviewed the Kleemann system and praised it as one of the most amazing supercharger systems they had ever driven. As for my car being in the shop 24/7/365... it has always been for upgrades, not because of problems with the car... with the level of tuning I am doing to my car you need time for blueprinting, custom part fabrication, etc.
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Originally posted by Fast Eddy
Timster instead of engaging here in pointless arguments with the kleemann dudes, why don't you better tell how the car runs. Your chances of meeting Kleemann car on the road are next to nothing, looks like sleestack and Bengy from Evosport are the only two with them in the wholewhite world and one of those cars is in the shop like 24/7/365 and Ben of cause refused to bring his car to the track to show how fast the car is when he was challenged by by one of the guys here on the forum, so make your conclusions and move on. I'm not droping 20k on the blower even if they make gold edition of it they did have purple, so whynot gold next, just like some trims on those lexuses
Timster instead of engaging here in pointless arguments with the kleemann dudes, why don't you better tell how the car runs. Your chances of meeting Kleemann car on the road are next to nothing, looks like sleestack and Bengy from Evosport are the only two with them in the wholewhite world and one of those cars is in the shop like 24/7/365 and Ben of cause refused to bring his car to the track to show how fast the car is when he was challenged by by one of the guys here on the forum, so make your conclusions and move on. I'm not droping 20k on the blower even if they make gold edition of it they did have purple, so whynot gold next, just like some trims on those lexuses
Yes, I refused to meet up with someone who's sole purpose in life is to harrass me. I do not need to prove to him what I have proved to others time and time again. Just the same, I have nothing to prove to you. But think of the logic in his $100 bet. I spend $500 to win back $100. What would Einstein say to that? You can have as much difficulty believing as you want, the owner of a Ferrari 360 Modena at Willow Springs yesterday didn't belive it when he was passed either.
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Originally posted by Mach430
Your chance of meeting any modified Mercedes on the road are next to nothing. With Kleemann being in the US for a little over a year, how many cars do you expect to see? They've already made it to your signature, so that's at least 1. And we're on our 3rd Kleemann install in the past month, so that makes at least 4. But wait, there is more than 1 month in the year, and there are other Kleemann dealers as well...
Yes, I refused to meet up with someone who's sole purpose in life is to harrass me. I do not need to prove to him what I have proved to others time and time again. Just the same, I have nothing to prove to you. But think of the logic in his $100 bet. I spend $500 to win back $100. What would Einstein say to that? You can have as much difficulty believing as you want, the owner of a Ferrari 360 Modena at Willow Springs yesterday didn't belive it when he was passed either.
Your chance of meeting any modified Mercedes on the road are next to nothing. With Kleemann being in the US for a little over a year, how many cars do you expect to see? They've already made it to your signature, so that's at least 1. And we're on our 3rd Kleemann install in the past month, so that makes at least 4. But wait, there is more than 1 month in the year, and there are other Kleemann dealers as well...
Yes, I refused to meet up with someone who's sole purpose in life is to harrass me. I do not need to prove to him what I have proved to others time and time again. Just the same, I have nothing to prove to you. But think of the logic in his $100 bet. I spend $500 to win back $100. What would Einstein say to that? You can have as much difficulty believing as you want, the owner of a Ferrari 360 Modena at Willow Springs yesterday didn't belive it when he was passed either.
Wheather you go and race is you decision. I would not run to the track for $100 either and do you really need Einstein to make that decision?
Last edited by Fast Eddy; Nov 15, 2002 at 09:52 PM.
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Originally posted by Sleestack
Uhh... I don't think i was ******* Timster but that's allright. Actually, Automobile magazine reviewed the Kleemann system and praised it as one of the most amazing supercharger systems they had ever driven. As for my car being in the shop 24/7/365... it has always been for upgrades, not because of problems with the car... with the level of tuning I am doing to my car you need time for blueprinting, custom part fabrication, etc.
Uhh... I don't think i was ******* Timster but that's allright. Actually, Automobile magazine reviewed the Kleemann system and praised it as one of the most amazing supercharger systems they had ever driven. As for my car being in the shop 24/7/365... it has always been for upgrades, not because of problems with the car... with the level of tuning I am doing to my car you need time for blueprinting, custom part fabrication, etc.
Timster sounds like he is very happy with his choice and that is what matters.
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Originally posted by Fast Eddy
One article, I'll give you that. I did not say your car had problems but lets get Einstein into this like Ben did and say what would he say about a car that is forever modified and therefore hardly ever driven? I have absoutlyno problemswithwhat you do , not that it matters especially when guys like KEV manage to put 2000 miles in 8 month on his car and that car is not in the shop for any modifications.
Timster sounds like he is very happy with his choice and that is what matters.
One article, I'll give you that. I did not say your car had problems but lets get Einstein into this like Ben did and say what would he say about a car that is forever modified and therefore hardly ever driven? I have absoutlyno problemswithwhat you do , not that it matters especially when guys like KEV manage to put 2000 miles in 8 month on his car and that car is not in the shop for any modifications.
Timster sounds like he is very happy with his choice and that is what matters.
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Fast Eddy, once my car is done, I assure you it will be driven quite a bit. I'm not building this car for show.
And actually, there have been several articles covering Kleemann over the past year... all have given very positive reviews on the system.
And actually, there have been several articles covering Kleemann over the past year... all have given very positive reviews on the system.
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Originally posted by Sleestack
Fast Eddy, once my car is done, I assure you it will be driven quite a bit. I'm not building this car for show.
And actually, there have been several articles covering Kleemann over the past year... all have given very positive reviews on the system.
Fast Eddy, once my car is done, I assure you it will be driven quite a bit. I'm not building this car for show.
And actually, there have been several articles covering Kleemann over the past year... all have given very positive reviews on the system.
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I think everyone can benefit from reading Vadim's post regarding different types of superchargers and their reliability/efficiency:
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...755#post200755
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...755#post200755
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back to the original question:
HPS or Kleemann, who wins?
the guy with the hotter girl in the passenger seat who is headed home from his better job to his bigger house (lets keep things in perspective)
HPS or Kleemann, who wins?
the guy with the hotter girl in the passenger seat who is headed home from his better job to his bigger house
(lets keep things in perspective)
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99' SLK 230 & 01' CLK 430
Damn !! How come i did not see this post? Anyway, anyone care about my opinion...? Lol..lol.
I personally like the design of Kleemann S/C because it almost factory look alike. Power? Kleemann is more but that because they run almost twice the boost then HPS. HPS can produces the same power like Kleemann S/C if they want to by install the IC and run higher boost like Kleemann but they choose not to and save $$$$ for their customer. It a very good business move because Kleemann are way to expensive for some people.
I personally like the design of Kleemann S/C because it almost factory look alike. Power? Kleemann is more but that because they run almost twice the boost then HPS. HPS can produces the same power like Kleemann S/C if they want to by install the IC and run higher boost like Kleemann but they choose not to and save $$$$ for their customer. It a very good business move because Kleemann are way to expensive for some people.
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Vadim mentioned that Eaton superchargers can not easily run higher than about 4 psi because they create a lot of heat by throwing air into the engine, and risk detonation with anything higher. Also:
I think there is a common misconception among people that superchargers are all the same. Vadim posted just a small introduction into each, as they all have their various characteristics. 7 psi in one supercharger is not the same as 7 psi in another. It works perfectly in the Kleemann, takes a while to obtain with the Vortech, and gets too hot (likely causing detonation, leaning, and even less power) with an Eaton. If you'd like to learn further, feel free to email me, or purchase Supercharged! By: Corky Bell . Corky Bell is considered one of the leading authorities in boost applications. In his book, you will learn a lot about many types of superchargers, and get to see a few pictures of the Kleemann Supercharger, and specifics on how the twin-screw (which they deem to be the best) works.
Thanks
Ben
Also on bigger engines like 500 and 55 M90 is too small. It is only 1.5L in displacement, so to make equal to smaller engine's (430) boost it has to be turned faster, thus creating more engine damaging heat.
Thanks
Ben
Last edited by Mach430; Nov 19, 2002 at 03:48 AM.
