LZH

It was an amazing day at WSIR yesterday. I'd like to thank Simon, Brad, his father and the rest of the Evosport crew for putting on an excellent event. Also, it was very nice to finally meet Jim (Jrcart) and Jim Brady. Brady and I spent a lot of time playing lead and follow....while we all played "catch up" to Jrcarts sick *** Black Series. Jim was even kind enough to let me turn a few laps behind the wheel of his car and I have to say that it is quite a different beast than a stock Black Series. Pictures do not do it justice. Every aspect of the Black Series that makes it such a great car has been taken to a new level. Mostly, the suspension work and handling are mind boggling. If you think the stock Black Series handles well, Jim's car blows it away. The precision and scalpel like handling and steering make it force to be reckoned with on the track. As you can see from the pics below, it was a perfect day weather wise - sunny, no wind and about 72 degrees all day. Enjoy !!!

EDIT - I also have a vido clip of Jrcarts car running down the front straight - I'll post that up as soon as it's processed on youtube. Brady also had an in car video mounted and I know he got some good footage of us so hopefully he'll get that posted.

Video clip - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOj2_Oo3Qcw

DFW01E55

Thanks.
I've been looking forward to commentaries from you guys.
Are you ready to make Jim's suspension mods to your car?

LZH

Honestly, driving my car around LA is already pretty jarring in stock form. The roads around here just flat out suck and I probably only track my car a few times a year. Plus, any lower and I'd have to tear up the front end just getting in my driveway. The pic of the car on the floor jack was mine getting the spacers installed. After the install I noticed slightly better turn in and a bit more corner exit grip under WOT but nothing to write home about. The look of the spacers makes the largest impression.

Mind you, I was NOT running the OEM fitted R compound tires - I was running regular ol' Michelin Pilot Sport street tires. With that being said, I'm happy that I got to get quite a few laps nose to tail with Jim Brady (the red BS) because his car has springs and the ECU tune plus he was running on the R compounds. After driving Jrcarts car, it gave me a very accurate impression of what the mods will do to these cars - and to be perfectly honest, it really isn't that much unless you go full race boogie like Jrcart. I think Jim Brady will agree, with my car totally stock on non R compounds, he and I were pretty much neck and neck. In 2 and 8 he would gain a bit of ground on me due to the better suspension setup (4 corner balance and kinetic toe alignment) and R compounds, but even with his mods and ecu tune, we were very closely matched - even on the straights. After a couple sessions we spoke at length and both agreed that we were both driving the car to about 7 or 8 tenths of it's total potential.

So, with that being said....I really feel that the law of diminishing returns, in relation to performance only, sets in very quickly with the first $ you spend modifying these cars. Aesthetics is another story....So, to answer your question, I think the only thing more I will do to my car is some minor exhaust work (X pipe and secondary cat delete), intake and an ECU tune. The ECU tune will simply be for better throttle response. I would love to do the aero pkg but I just cannot as I know it would get destroyed in LA and I like to keep my stuff in as close to perfect condition as possible. Hence the reason I don't drive my street car 10/tenths at the track - that's what real race cars are for. I said it long ago when I first got my car, it's an amazing car, but no matter how much money you throw at it in mods....it's still a big heavy street car. But, it sure as hell can turn some quick laps in capable hands....just ask the guys who were out there driving the F430's

AMG Dictator

Any ECU problems this time from the tuned cars?

LZH

Funny you ask that. Both of the other cars, Jcarts and Jim's, were going into limp mode. I do not believe it had anything to do with the ECU's. They both had the same code being thrown - something about "accelerator". A quick power cycle and the cars were back to normal. I was thinking it had something to do with the yaw sensor...Who knows, but when I drove Jcarts car, I was probably driving at about 7/tenths, and it performed perfectly. Jim Brady had it happen I think twice early in the day and it never reappeared. Perhaps there are certain parameters in these cars where they know they are being pushed hard and they simply shut down to prevent damaging any critical components.
But, going into limp mode in the middle of turn 8 on the big track at 120mph can send you off. So, I really don't care what the car thinks is happening, going into limp mode at the wrong time on a racing circuit can be catastrophic to the entire vehicle, the driver and anyone unfortunate enough to be near him at the time...

AMG Dictator

Did it happen to your car with a stock ECU? I am curious because I push my car very hard and have never had this issue but it seems to be common with the ECU tuned cars.

I totally agree with your comments about the car going into limp mode. Not a good situation at all. I have been considering an ECU tune but I don't want any issues. With your comments that you really saw little difference between your stock car on PS2's and Jimmys with a tuned ECU and Corsa's, perhaps my money is better spent on changing the suspension.

What were the various track times that you all were running? Cna you compare, stock on PS2 to ECU and COrsa's to Jim's car? Great data to have!

Thanks!

DFW01E55

Everyone on stock pads?
TC off, right?
So the spacers are a go or no go?
Is the PS2 cost trade off worth it on the track?

LZH

Honestly, suspension is where it's at with these cars if you just wanna turn a quick lap. As I said, for me, the trade off for me is not worth it as I don't track my street cars that much. I feel the suspension out of the box is a great compromise. These are heavy cars and the amount of mechanical grip they have hides their weight in the corners very well. Even when they do break away, the handling is so neutral that it's easy to get it back into shape. So, I would say to you, if you have good roads and a flat driveway, do the suspension first. It really allows you to carry much more speed in the corners - especially the long sweepers (like 8 at Willow evidenced by Jimmy gaining on me). Personally I didn't feel my car getting light at all in the high speed sweepers. I did however notice in Jcarts car through the high speed turns, it was much more planted so perhaps there is a lot to say for the added down force. But again, to really notice it you have to be driving it right on the edge or very close to it.

As this was not a timed event, I don't know what everyone was running. Someone did however have a stopwatch and was taking a few notes. IIRC, my best was a 1:35 and change and I believe Brad driving Jcarts car did a 33. When I drove Jcarts car I did a 40 flat. I forgot to mention earlier, Jcarts new seats are fixed - they do not move at all in any direction and the drivers seat is way too far from the pedals for my liking (I could barely touch them). I had to adjust the steering wheel all the way out and down. In short, the seating position was not for me. The combination of that and it being someone else’s car plus I had a passenger, made me drive on the cautious side - hence my 1:40 lap time. The guy who was timing however did say that on my last lap in Jrcarts cars I was 3 seconds faster on the back section but I let up early (before 8) for a cool down lap. There was a LOT left on the table.
Hope that helps

LZH

TC off, yes. Although for my first session out I like to keep it on, get warmed up and the last few laps of the session push it a little and see where it kicks in just so I know where the car gets outta shape.

Spacers, for $300, for sure just for looks alone. It really fills out the wheel wells properly.

PS2's - IMO, yes - bigtime. Jimmy and I both discussed it at length. If you are driving your car on the street in a way that you notice the difference between the two, you are driving like a friggin maniac. Plus the PS2's get up to temp much quicker than the Corsas and stay there. The wear factor is a no brainer. Honestly, I was VERY impressed with their grip level on the track. With the money you save over the Corsas, you just bought yourself a mod or two. If you track a lot and hard, you are going to be going through Corsas FAST. I got one track day out of my first set. They can only be heat cycled about 20 times before they are junk.

DFW01E55

Noooo, the cost difference of the PS2's will only get you spacers when compared to the Corsa's. Okay, maybe spacers are a mod.

I've got 4k miles on my first set of Corsa's (they're shot) and 500 street miles and 80 track miles on my second, although I'm holding them for track only.

How many street miles do you get on the PS2's? I'm contemplating Vredestein Ultrac Sessantas for the street.

Thanks for your comments!

Gondon

So what times did everyone run?

Jim Brady

These are some of my take on our track day. I agree pretty much with Luke, but have some other opinions.
Stock pads are better than the Porterfields which are the only option at this time and I've tried both. Spacers are a GO not only for looks, Luke felt they gave him a little more grip, I do too. It was interesting that the PS2's were up to temp in less than a lap and it took the Corsa's two laps to really come in then it was clear after 4 laps the PS2's were giving up. For the money the PS2 maybe the way to go. I'll stick with the Corsa's.

I'm running the H&R springs and they were an improvement on the track. I don't find them objectionable on the street as it's the shock harshness that makes the ride uncomfortable. I could catch Luke in turns 2 and 8 so it was no question that they gave more grip to the chassis over the stock springs. If your going to do track evenets with any regularity, not a bad upgrade.

Here's another problem I've uncovered, the stock alignment is crap. Most of the BS have rear toe out which makes the car unstable under braking and gives the tail happy feeling. So dial in 1.5mm of toe in and it will transform the handling. I also dialed in 2.2 deg camber in front which cut down the wear significantly. One of the pro drivers couldn't believe how well my car turns in. We were close to a head to head with JrCarts car but he had a belt issue and Brad O who was driving had to go in. I felt that I've nailed the set up.

Both Jim's car and mine had ECU limp mode issues. Both cars threw the same fault codes! Evosport was there to clear codes and I was able to continue thank you EVOsport. I have told the tuners (Andy & PowerChip) repetedly that you won't have ECU problems until you drive at Willow. No track in North America has as much side loading as turn 8/9. The reason now is very apparent to me, and it has to do with the throttle respnse settings they are using. Mercedes has repetedly said, NO TUNER CAN IMPROVE ON THIS ECU. Well they are right. And the reason is most tune for straight line full throttle. On a road race course between me and Luke, the ECU tune was negligible over the stock tune. I was unable to get a conclusive run with JrCart as he had some belt issues when we finanlly had a chance to run.

Tony Kanan was right when he said the car has enough power. You really can't put more power down unless you go to Hoosiers or slicks. Obviously, this doesn't apply to drag racing.

There were no transponders so times were based on hand timing. Brad driving Jrcart had a 1:33.6 with traction control ON! I had a 1:35 on my in car timer and I missed my best two laps. So the car with club drivers is a low 1:30's car. Oh, If anyone believes that a F430 can hang with a BS
it aint going to happen.

Go fast parts that work are springs, alignment with corner balance and spacers.
If you want a little better trottle response a tune will cut your 60-120 times by ONE SECOND! Be ready to have limp mode issues if you really drive aggresively on the track.
Looks wise, front spoiler, Dymags/H&Rs, clear corners and for you track junkies Madico clear windshield cover.
For hard core/headers and exhaust/intake
This car is the most underrated performace car you can buy and if you don't
F with it is also bullet proof.
Jimmy is out.

LZH

Well said, Jimmy. It was nice getting to know you. BTW, have you looked at the video footage of us chasing eachother around ?

otoupalik

Guys the day was a BLAST!

As for the times, I was not pushing JRCart's car past 7/10th's or so (these timed laps on me were in the morning warm-up with newbies on track). I was also not driving when the belt went, it was another instructor (the issue seems to be a idler pulley that started to wobble - damn factory parts! lol).

It was one of my more fun track days, and a lot of the thanks goes to Jim, Jim and Luke!

Be back to the thread later, up early and off to Famoso with my 4 year old (who from watching Pinks, expects to see someone have to give away their car today! lol)

thanks
brad

jenk12m

glad to hear you guys had a good time. i was with you guys in spirit as i was running around road atlanta in 35degree temps on ps2's. car was amazing in every way except for getting use to the downshifts. once i got the feel of it and in a rhythm, it all about seeing how well the car performed. i have a evosport car as well and i got 2 thumbs up from everyone that was there, that my car sounded the best all day long. i'll have to agree with jim brady about the alignment, although i never ran my car in stock form. i had the alignment done before i went out and the guys said there was too much rear toe out. so with a good alignment i never felt the the tail end getting happy under heavy breaking. i even had Nic Jonsson(pro driver), drive my car and he couldnt believe how well it performed for being so heavy.
i dont know how much i'll actually drive the BS on the track since i still have my gt3, but it definitely will be out there

transferred

Good write up, Jim.

I don't doubt the above quote but what do you think about the Scuderia? With a pro driver in each, I would certainly back the F-car. There's also the 997 GT3 RS, but I suspect with that even more so then the Scud, it would be much harder to get a good lap time than in the Black Series which sounds very user-friendly. That's a quality not to be dismissed lightly and the key word in my third sentence is definitely "pro."

The BS certainly defies its big weight and automatic transmission at the track. Of course it has a much more advanced suspension set up but I'm still curious at to whether you could compare how it handles WSIR compared to say a Viper ACR or Z06. They are simplistic but low ride height, big power and even bigger power seems to allow them to run with more sophisticated Euro metal.

I've not been to Willow since I had my 996 GT3 (which was very hard to drive fast on anything but perfect roads). The times the BSs turned in are above and beyond what I achieved (high 30s, pushing 8/10ths, street rubber). I was considering an E92 M3 but for know will stick to my little old 333bhp straight-6 and hope BMW change there mind on producing another CSL edition.

This has turned into a rambling post but it sounds like you, JRCart and Brad had fun, drove well and the modifications were wisely chosen.

Jim Brady

First of all, I only post my experience not what is posted in a magazine or on the internet. A Scud would out pace a BS no question. I've run them.
Based on my track encounters with like drivers BS takes the 997 GT3 but it is very close. The RS is really a GT3 with some suspension improvements. I believe in the hands of a very good porsche driver it would be faster, but the BS is much much easier to drive fast. I seem to catch them on the high speed sweepers, and they excel under braking.

The ACR should be the fastest street legal car to lap Willow with its massive down force and I believe it would be faster than the ZR1 based on aero. Haven't raced them yet, but I'm sure I run into several in the next month or so if the good weather hold up.
Jimmy

L8Apex

Sounds like a great day! Low 1:30's is pretty damn good for a car with that kind of weight. Forget the Fcar or ACR, would have loved to see Craig there with a Lotus Exige. The BS would have ahead a very difficult time keeping up with the Lotus.

PC Valkyrie

Excellent to see you guys enjoy your Black Series to the fullest on a track. Interesting that some of you chose the Michelin PS2 as a street tire that you track with. I also found the PS2's to be quite good on the track, as I've used them on my C55 multiple times.

I look forward to seeing some in-car videos of your lapday. Would love to see the action from behind the wheel of your cars!

AMG Dictator

What times does an Exige run at Willow?

MACHC5

I found a link of 3 videos of a new GT-R and a SPOON NSX at a track. They were turning 1:25 lap times. Is this same track you guys went to.?

drive.gtchannel.com/?c=127&a=1570

JDB

It is Willow Springs, but I think it's a smaller track at the facility known as the "Streets of Willow". Maybe some of the Southern California members can confirm this.

Incidentally, the Streets of Willow is where Mercedes-AMG held their international press day preview of the CLK63 Black Series back in 2007.

JDB

Jim Brady

Interesting you mention the Lotus. The Lotus becomes a momentum car at Willow (big track). I know in the hands of a pro driver they can become a sub 1:30 car BUT thats with slicks. Lotus has about four differenct Exige models including a non street legal car so you don't really know which one your running as they all look the same.
I really think its a drivers race. I've slaughtered the regular Elise and at least one Exige, but then again I don't know how capable the drivers were.
Jimmy

L8Apex

Very true! I've beat a handful but with a good driver really pushing the little car I had no chance. Here is a vid of a very capable driver (Craig pro driver) pushing an Exige 10/10ths. He holds the track record for the exige 1:26 or 27 cant remember. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJb0I74x3Rs Watch his line in turn 4. There are several NA Exiges in the 1:28s too.

BTW, That BS sounds incredible on the front straight. Any in car vids?

CynCarvin32

Craig Stanton did a 1:32 in a bone stock Lotus Elise (190 hp) NON sport package. I cant find the footage now but he is on the ragged edge the entire lap and he just drives it with absolute skill and no fear. His line in 4 is similar to that in the posted Exige footage.

The lotus cars are extremely quick in the hands of the select few who really know how to extract speed from them. The normal guys in elises and exiges at the track drive extremely slowly. It is a twitchy car that has a great deal of "liveliness" in the rear end upon any lifting of throttle after turn in. I have been off the track ONCE and it was in a Lotus Elise. I have never driven any mid engine cars other than that one Lotus and before I do that again i need to learn how to control a car like that. Its a whole different ball game. I lost count of the # of Enterprise Rental Car Lotus Elise cars I have seen cracked up at willow springs. A driver not ready for the mid engine experience will go off in a big way.

I am quite impressed withe the new EVO X. With stock suspension, minor motor upgrades, and 275/35/18 Nitto NT-01 tires on 18x9.5 wheels I have gotten down to a 1:34.8. I cant imagine what is possible if you really add power, stiffen the suspension and get moving. Unlike the Lotus that Mitsubishi is simple to drive. It is almost to easy in that you feel as if a monkey with hams for fists could do that lap time.

I think a BS bone stock, driven by a very skilled driver could do a 1:32-1:33 but after that you need to get rid of some of that 4000 lbs.