Is there no more that can be said about the Black?
12-14-2009, 03:40 PM
#76
MBWorld Fanatic!
Depends on which niche market you are in and where you are in the market place. IF you are on the expensive side of the market place business must be terrible right now haha. If you provide a good bargain then sales are up 
.
In all seriousness, I do think the days of absurdly overpriced aftermarket parts is slowly coming to an end though as the recession deepens due to various macroeconomic forces unfolding and as discretionary income begins to tighten considerably. Once the next leg down kicks in many shops will probably have to close down (as many of the big names in the industry already have). The one opposing factor to this is that higher end cars are depreciating so quickly in price that "tuner generation" for lack of a better term is getting their hands on these cars and starting to mod them far more aggressively than was the case just a few years ago. However, the long term discretionary income in this market segment is skeptic at best, which is why the more cost effective solutions are appealing in the marketplace more than ever as these younger "modders" get a hold of these cars which were way out of their price range just a few years ago. So much so that many of the expensive tuners have had to slash MSRP prices substantially to reflect the niche market conditions as well as the overall economy.
The Exotics tuners will probably do decently well simply b/c their margins are so ridiculously high (lambo's, Ferrari's etc), but again theirs is a low volume gain so that's another story all together. The "hyper-tuners" (lack of a better term) will have a tough time as well but may be isolated enough b/c their clientele is the top .01% elite. Although, Mansory may still have some trouble selling in this economy. I guess their entire client base must be Sheikh's that have their own oil producing countries
Just food for though...
. In all seriousness, I do think the days of absurdly overpriced aftermarket parts is slowly coming to an end though as the recession deepens due to various macroeconomic forces unfolding and as discretionary income begins to tighten considerably. Once the next leg down kicks in many shops will probably have to close down (as many of the big names in the industry already have). The one opposing factor to this is that higher end cars are depreciating so quickly in price that "tuner generation" for lack of a better term is getting their hands on these cars and starting to mod them far more aggressively than was the case just a few years ago. However, the long term discretionary income in this market segment is skeptic at best, which is why the more cost effective solutions are appealing in the marketplace more than ever as these younger "modders" get a hold of these cars which were way out of their price range just a few years ago. So much so that many of the expensive tuners have had to slash MSRP prices substantially to reflect the niche market conditions as well as the overall economy.
The Exotics tuners will probably do decently well simply b/c their margins are so ridiculously high (lambo's, Ferrari's etc), but again theirs is a low volume gain so that's another story all together. The "hyper-tuners" (lack of a better term) will have a tough time as well but may be isolated enough b/c their clientele is the top .01% elite. Although, Mansory may still have some trouble selling in this economy. I guess their entire client base must be Sheikh's that have their own oil producing countries
Just food for though...
12-14-2009, 03:56 PM
#77
MBWorld Fanatic!
I really fail to see how my opinion that the CLK DTM would be faster on the track than the CLK Black has resulted in your post requesting that I join you for a track day that is dripping with scarcasm regarding some of my previous posts. What exactly does me meeting you at the track prove in the debate of if the CLK DTM is faster than the CLK Black?
Perhaps you are just a really nice guy that enjoys the company of fellow CLK Black Series owners so I will be happy to let you know the next time I will be at Laguna Seca. If you can round up a CLK DTM for the event, it would be an added bonus and I would be happy to bring along my bottle of Champagne (only the good stuff) and perhaps we could put this fun little debate to rest without all the theory.
Perhaps you are just a really nice guy that enjoys the company of fellow CLK Black Series owners so I will be happy to let you know the next time I will be at Laguna Seca. If you can round up a CLK DTM for the event, it would be an added bonus and I would be happy to bring along my bottle of Champagne (only the good stuff) and perhaps we could put this fun little debate to rest without all the theory.
12-14-2009, 07:55 PM
#78
MBWorld Fanatic!
12-14-2009, 08:05 PM
#79
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't forget that the DTM does run all metal bearing instead of the rubber units in the BS. I also believe that despite the skinny fronts that I seem to recall that the DTM pulls 1.36g on a skidpad v. the BS <1g stock to stock....
Also what was the comment on the greater drivetrain in the DTM? It has the old 5 spd just with the m1 tcu programming...
Also what was the comment on the greater drivetrain in the DTM? It has the old 5 spd just with the m1 tcu programming...
12-15-2009, 12:33 AM
#80
MBWorld Fanatic!
Don't forget that the DTM does run all metal bearing instead of the rubber units in the BS. I also believe that despite the skinny fronts that I seem to recall that the DTM pulls 1.36g on a skidpad v. the BS <1g stock to stock....
Also what was the comment on the greater drivetrain in the DTM? It has the old 5 spd just with the m1 tcu programming...
Also what was the comment on the greater drivetrain in the DTM? It has the old 5 spd just with the m1 tcu programming...
The unibal struts didn't stiffen the chassis to the degree necessary to harness the torque, which is why most of the DTM's that see track duty are caged not only for saftey but for stiffness. AMG corrected this with the BS when it added massive front and rear struts to the triangulated chassis which was also seam welded.The BS is a much stiffer platform than the DTM.
1.36gs is race car limits! I don't think you get there with the Dunlaps that the DTM came with.
12-15-2009, 05:31 AM
#81
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Surrey, U.K
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
clk black series
Too many egos, not enough room ........................... 
This is supposed to be about the cars not who the best driver is, who has the best wine collection or who can **** up the wall the highest.
There is always someone faster,bigger,longer,richer,funnier and a freak who can **** 3 metres up a wall !!!
C'mon fellas show some class - if you want to have a ***** waving competition do it in the privacy of your own bathrooms.
This is supposed to be about the cars not who the best driver is, who has the best wine collection or who can **** up the wall the highest.
There is always someone faster,bigger,longer,richer,funnier and a freak who can **** 3 metres up a wall !!!
C'mon fellas show some class - if you want to have a ***** waving competition do it in the privacy of your own bathrooms.
12-15-2009, 11:59 AM
#82
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New England
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CLK63 Black, 2006 Ford GT
Too many egos, not enough room ...........................
This is supposed to be about the cars not who the best driver is, who has the best wine collection or who can **** up the wall the highest.
There is always someone faster,bigger,longer,richer,funnier and a freak who can **** 3 metres up a wall !!!
C'mon fellas show some class - if you want to have a ***** waving competition do it in the privacy of your own bathrooms.
This is supposed to be about the cars not who the best driver is, who has the best wine collection or who can **** up the wall the highest.
There is always someone faster,bigger,longer,richer,funnier and a freak who can **** 3 metres up a wall !!!
C'mon fellas show some class - if you want to have a ***** waving competition do it in the privacy of your own bathrooms.
12-15-2009, 02:38 PM
#84
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JB:
I would agree with you. I just noted that the DTM had the metal v. rubber bushings as interesting. I don't think that it would pull a 1.36 with 225 fronts and front engine either, but saw it published somewhere on the internet.
I also agree that number seems a little far fetched given the 225/285's. What dunlops came with the car? I could possibly see those numbers on a P-car with all the mods as my old one had with cage etc., however I can't see that high of a number with 225 and front engine.
I really wonder how much the front and rear strut bars help. I also have them. I did everything at once so couldn't tell the differences. Maybe I'll pull them for a canyon run. As to how much flexing they prevent? They must do something as all performance cars have them built in somehow- with p-cars have them structurally and the old 993s had the bar across ala BS etc..
I would agree with you. I just noted that the DTM had the metal v. rubber bushings as interesting. I don't think that it would pull a 1.36 with 225 fronts and front engine either, but saw it published somewhere on the internet.
I also agree that number seems a little far fetched given the 225/285's. What dunlops came with the car? I could possibly see those numbers on a P-car with all the mods as my old one had with cage etc., however I can't see that high of a number with 225 and front engine.
I really wonder how much the front and rear strut bars help. I also have them. I did everything at once so couldn't tell the differences. Maybe I'll pull them for a canyon run. As to how much flexing they prevent? They must do something as all performance cars have them built in somehow- with p-cars have them structurally and the old 993s had the bar across ala BS etc..
Last edited by spr; 12-15-2009 at 02:50 PM.
12-15-2009, 06:15 PM
#85
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: surrey
Posts: 347
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CLK AMG BLACK SERIES (among other German things)
12-15-2009, 08:28 PM
#86
MBWorld Fanatic!
JB:
I would agree with you. I just noted that the DTM had the metal v. rubber bushings as interesting. I don't think that it would pull a 1.36 with 225 fronts and front engine either, but saw it published somewhere on the internet.
I also agree that number seems a little far fetched given the 225/285's. What dunlops came with the car? I could possibly see those numbers on a P-car with all the mods as my old one had with cage etc., however I can't see that high of a number with 225 and front engine.
I really wonder how much the front and rear strut bars help. I also have them. I did everything at once so couldn't tell the differences. Maybe I'll pull them for a canyon run. As to how much flexing they prevent? They must do something as all performance cars have them built in somehow- with p-cars have them structurally and the old 993s had the bar across ala BS etc..
I would agree with you. I just noted that the DTM had the metal v. rubber bushings as interesting. I don't think that it would pull a 1.36 with 225 fronts and front engine either, but saw it published somewhere on the internet.
I also agree that number seems a little far fetched given the 225/285's. What dunlops came with the car? I could possibly see those numbers on a P-car with all the mods as my old one had with cage etc., however I can't see that high of a number with 225 and front engine.
I really wonder how much the front and rear strut bars help. I also have them. I did everything at once so couldn't tell the differences. Maybe I'll pull them for a canyon run. As to how much flexing they prevent? They must do something as all performance cars have them built in somehow- with p-cars have them structurally and the old 993s had the bar across ala BS etc..
All the DTM's I've seen (4) had Dunlop Sp Supersports, the front tires were 255/18 not 225's whether the owners replaced the 225 is unknown. Sounds like the 255 would be the proper fitment if it's a 9" rim. An 8'' would be a 225.The Dunlops were the only choice due to the 20" rear wheels.
The sturt braces will add stiffness and durability if your going to pound the car. I know my BS will lift it wheel if parked on an angle so the frame is pretty stiff.
The 1.36g's is still hard to believe even with 255's.
12-15-2009, 08:38 PM
#87
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with you on the tire to rim sizing. Here is the article I was thinking about quoting the use of 225's front:
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...dtm/index.html
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...dtm/index.html
12-16-2009, 12:32 AM
#88
MBWorld Fanatic!
[QUOTE=AMG Dictator;3852074][QUOTE=Jim Brady;3851383]
Here is my theory - Your view of the CLK DTM is limited by your real world experience around them while they were being driven by their owners not real race car drivers.
In a more mellow moment,
I thought about your theory and it does make some sense unless I'd given you more information. My posts are based on the primary souce theory being what I experienced not what I read or hearsay.
With that, it doesn't take too many laps to see where another driver has an advantage or vehicle has superior grip or acceleration as all the particpants were required to have a race licenses.
In addition all the vehicles were rigged with AX-22 data acquisition gps. Since the pro drivers (coaches) had driven all the cars days before our race for a base line, it wasn't too difficult to acess the compeitiors ability and the vehicle dynamics. Given the baseline, my inferior drivng skill was made up by having a superior handling vehicle. My subjective comments were confirmed by the empirical data from the AX-22 which showed the lateral 'gs
as well as speed for the corners based upon the known results from the pros the BS was quicker stock for stock. I don't know what else I can say to convience anyone, but I guess we need to find a DTM and bring it to Willow Spring and line em up.
Here is my theory - Your view of the CLK DTM is limited by your real world experience around them while they were being driven by their owners not real race car drivers.
In a more mellow moment,
I thought about your theory and it does make some sense unless I'd given you more information. My posts are based on the primary souce theory being what I experienced not what I read or hearsay. With that, it doesn't take too many laps to see where another driver has an advantage or vehicle has superior grip or acceleration as all the particpants were required to have a race licenses.
In addition all the vehicles were rigged with AX-22 data acquisition gps. Since the pro drivers (coaches) had driven all the cars days before our race for a base line, it wasn't too difficult to acess the compeitiors ability and the vehicle dynamics. Given the baseline, my inferior drivng skill was made up by having a superior handling vehicle. My subjective comments were confirmed by the empirical data from the AX-22 which showed the lateral 'gs
as well as speed for the corners based upon the known results from the pros the BS was quicker stock for stock. I don't know what else I can say to convience anyone, but I guess we need to find a DTM and bring it to Willow Spring and line em up.
12-16-2009, 04:19 AM
#89
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Surrey, U.K
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
clk black series
In addition all the vehicles were rigged with AX-22 data acquisition gps. Since the pro drivers (coaches) had driven all the cars days before our race for a base line, it wasn't too difficult to acess the compeitiors ability and the vehicle dynamics. Given the baseline, my inferior drivng skill was made up by having a superior handling vehicle. My subjective comments were confirmed by the empirical data from the AX-22 which showed the lateral 'gs
as well as speed for the corners based upon the known results from the pros the BS was quicker stock for stock. I don't know what else I can say to convience anyone, but I guess we need to find a DTM and bring it to Willow Spring and line em up.
as well as speed for the corners based upon the known results from the pros the BS was quicker stock for stock. I don't know what else I can say to convience anyone, but I guess we need to find a DTM and bring it to Willow Spring and line em up.
12-17-2009, 04:38 PM
#90
Member
Lol, I dont even know why there are arguments over this when a stock 996gt3 with the comparable tires will run 10 seconds on a black at VIR and probably the glen as well... That said, who cares as IMHO, the clk black is almost more fun...and thats when its just on the street...haha.
12-18-2009, 12:25 AM
#91
MBWorld Fanatic!
Lol, I dont even know why there are arguments over this when a stock 996gt3 with the comparable tires will run 10 seconds on a black at VIR and probably the glen as well... That said, who cares as IMHO, the clk black is almost more fun...and thats when its just on the street...haha.
10 second! Are you sure it wasn't a CLK DTM.
12-18-2009, 02:50 AM
#92
Member
12-18-2009, 08:34 AM
#93
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,589
Received 68 Likes
on
44 Posts
C63 507 AMG DA Car #19
##
As one of the younger "tuner" guys (referred to earlier in this thread), I'm considering the CLK63Black @ 80K price-point used after it takes it depreciation hit........ I've got a question on MB support for replacement parts for this lim run car:
Assuming I get one and keep it for 10-15 years will MB continue to carry one-off parts for this car...... i'm thinking certain CF body parts and CLK63black specific suspension items might not be available in a few years........ Any thoughts on this as I consider a CLK63Black for my dailydriver/tracktoy long term wheels for a few years....... I like it enough to drive it for many years......
If the CLK63Black is intended to be tracked and abused you would expect there to be an abundant supply of parts. However, if the car is intended to be a country-club cruiser then I'm afraid it will just sit in collections.
Also regarding the comment on who can afford these cars....... as we've seen with this home lending crisis..... one man's idea of what he can afford is different than another...... I'd be really sick if I financed a new BS in 2007 (while my investments where smoking) and then watched my investments drop 30-40% and then watched the value of my BS drop 40% all the while making min payments....... can you say lopsided.
Another point...... I'd argue that we all benefit from the tuner crowd..... as they push the limit of what can be done with these cars. And remember where AMG came from..... a bunch of tuners.
Assuming I get one and keep it for 10-15 years will MB continue to carry one-off parts for this car...... i'm thinking certain CF body parts and CLK63black specific suspension items might not be available in a few years........ Any thoughts on this as I consider a CLK63Black for my dailydriver/tracktoy long term wheels for a few years....... I like it enough to drive it for many years......
If the CLK63Black is intended to be tracked and abused you would expect there to be an abundant supply of parts. However, if the car is intended to be a country-club cruiser then I'm afraid it will just sit in collections.
Also regarding the comment on who can afford these cars....... as we've seen with this home lending crisis..... one man's idea of what he can afford is different than another...... I'd be really sick if I financed a new BS in 2007 (while my investments where smoking) and then watched my investments drop 30-40% and then watched the value of my BS drop 40% all the while making min payments....... can you say lopsided.
Another point...... I'd argue that we all benefit from the tuner crowd..... as they push the limit of what can be done with these cars. And remember where AMG came from..... a bunch of tuners.
Last edited by betrezra; 12-18-2009 at 08:45 AM.
12-23-2009, 09:48 AM
#94
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2009 E350, 2002 GT2, 2004 SC M3, 2010 C63
Depends on which niche market you are in and where you are in the market place. IF you are on the expensive side of the market place business must be terrible right now haha. If you provide a good bargain then sales are up .
In all seriousness, I do think the days of absurdly overpriced aftermarket parts is slowly coming to an end though as the recession deepens due to various macroeconomic forces unfolding and as discretionary income begins to tighten considerably. Once the next leg down kicks in many shops will probably have to close down (as many of the big names in the industry already have). The one opposing factor to this is that higher end cars are depreciating so quickly in price that "tuner generation" for lack of a better term is getting their hands on these cars and starting to mod them far more aggressively than was the case just a few years ago. However, the long term discretionary income in this market segment is skeptic at best, which is why the more cost effective solutions are appealing in the marketplace more than ever as these younger "modders" get a hold of these cars which were way out of their price range just a few years ago. So much so that many of the expensive tuners have had to slash MSRP prices substantially to reflect the niche market conditions as well as the overall economy.
The Exotics tuners will probably do decently well simply b/c their margins are so ridiculously high (lambo's, Ferrari's etc), but again theirs is a low volume gain so that's another story all together. The "hyper-tuners" (lack of a better term) will have a tough time as well but may be isolated enough b/c their clientele is the top .01% elite. Although, Mansory may still have some trouble selling in this economy. I guess their entire client base must be Sheikh's that have their own oil producing countries
Just food for though...
. In all seriousness, I do think the days of absurdly overpriced aftermarket parts is slowly coming to an end though as the recession deepens due to various macroeconomic forces unfolding and as discretionary income begins to tighten considerably. Once the next leg down kicks in many shops will probably have to close down (as many of the big names in the industry already have). The one opposing factor to this is that higher end cars are depreciating so quickly in price that "tuner generation" for lack of a better term is getting their hands on these cars and starting to mod them far more aggressively than was the case just a few years ago. However, the long term discretionary income in this market segment is skeptic at best, which is why the more cost effective solutions are appealing in the marketplace more than ever as these younger "modders" get a hold of these cars which were way out of their price range just a few years ago. So much so that many of the expensive tuners have had to slash MSRP prices substantially to reflect the niche market conditions as well as the overall economy.
The Exotics tuners will probably do decently well simply b/c their margins are so ridiculously high (lambo's, Ferrari's etc), but again theirs is a low volume gain so that's another story all together. The "hyper-tuners" (lack of a better term) will have a tough time as well but may be isolated enough b/c their clientele is the top .01% elite. Although, Mansory may still have some trouble selling in this economy. I guess their entire client base must be Sheikh's that have their own oil producing countries
Just food for though...
928, aftermarket, black, clk, clk63, depreciation, dtm, gts, maintaince, maintenance, modifications, porsche, race, sale, series
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
