thebishman

Just wondered what was the concensus of opinion(s) about how well the BS does on a 'typical', (if there is such a thing), road course?

Is it just a question of exchanging brake pads and putting on a set of DOT R compounds, or are there other major components that routinely need servicing, replacing?

Especially interested in how it compares to cars like the 996TT; 997TT; GT3; M5; M3, etc.

I currently have a lightly breathed on GT-R that's putting down about 480hp at the wheels for my track toy.

Bish

sechsgang

For track only, I think its honestly too heavy...hense my other car and the use of more "purpose built" porsches (not listed ) That said, I think its a pretty cool "because I can" track day car. I would expect to go through pads fast however due to the near 4k lb weight...oh, and if your more inclined to use more ehem...slip...when your in the black series...then you may want another set of tires ready to go... I know I cant even drive the car normally without goofing off. I will say the balance is EXTRAORDINARY though and feels ODDLY akin to a big albeit loose go-kart...nice wide yet short wheelbase...


For what its worth, I kick off a set of slicks in 8-9 run sessions in my GT3...and thats only 2 days of a 3 day event So ya, I think I mentioned a second set of tires right? lol.

jrcart

No need to change brakes or tires, comes with great brakes and can easily hold it's own if lined up against all of the cars you have listed. It will smoke a stock M3 and M5 as well as a 996 or 997 TT and depending on the track it can even show a GT2 or GT3 it's tail lights in stock form. If you want to put a couple of mods on the Black Series as I have you will be hard pressed to find many road going vehicles that can hang with it on a road course.

thebishman

What makes the BS so fast that it can "smoke" a 997TT? I mean the BS weighs what, 4,000lbs(?); is RWD and has about 500hp at the crank. The 997TT also has close to this much power; is AWD and weighs substantially less. Is the balance of the BS that superior?

I am not arguing btw, I am just trying to understand.

Bish

jrcart

I really can't explain it, we were all pretty suprised to see what these cars can do on a track with a decent driver, I was one of the first to take delivery of one and one of the first to put it on a track, several people including other BS owners doubted and questioned the track results I posted until they had time to get theirs out on a track and put them up against other supercars, the results were always the same when equal drivers were pitted against one another. You will hear similar stories from most of the BS owners on this forum, most of us own several cars, and most of also own/have owned and tracked 996's 997's, F430's, M3's, Z06's or other great track/race cars. Most of the track days I attend with my BS are Porsche Club events and the P car owners/drivers were equally suprised, I will never forget my first stint up at Road America at a P Club event, I passed and or lapped every car on the track, after the session was over about 25 people walked up to my car with a blank stare just shaking their heads in dis-belief. The 997's can out brake the BS but the BS can carrry more mid-corner speed and exit speed and can in most situations return to the gas earlier so what is given up on entry is easily made up by mid corner usually or by exit definetly. The straight away power of the BS is far superior to the 997T, even when exiting a corner a couple lengths behind a 997T I can usually catch and pass them before the next turn (even without a draft), even on short and moderate length straights I can reel them in. Depending on the track and drivers sometimes it's a game of cat and mouse for a few turns, I'll pass only to get repassed in the brake zone, but once we hit the front straight of any track I just motor by them opening up enough distance that they are no longer a problem and already focused on the taillights of my next victim. The BS is a 3800 pound car, but it does not feel like it, it brakes and handles like a lighter car. The brakes are great with little or no fade even in longer harder braking sessions. There is a reason that several professional race car drivers own/owned these things, Tony Kannan, Kurt Busch, Dale Ernhardt Jr, Scott Speed, Micheal Andretti, Chip Gannassi and Paul Tracy just to name a few that I am aware of. Not to mention that Mr Critical himself, Jeremy Clarkson of Top Gear ponied up the cash for one, says it's the best car he's ever driven. Bottom line they are fun, fast and unique, 997's are a dime a dozen, it's not uncommom to see several in one afternoon, the chances of seeing a BS on the street within the next month is pretty slim, in the 2.5 years I have owned mine (with the exception of car shows/track meets) I have seen a total of 3 Black Series on the road, being that it is 65 degrees and sunny today in Chicago chances are good that I will see 3 997's on the way home from the office this afternoon.

thebishman

Thanks for the great write-up. I appeciate it.

The truth is I was pondering trading the GT-R for a BS if I could find one and the deal was acceptable. I was just afraid that I might be a little disappointed with the on track performance; you've put my mind at ease.

Bish

alexander stemer

If going away from a GTR, there are a few other benefits. I thought Nissan had a policy about mandatory dealer service prior to tracking. If that is the case, then the BS is far simpler. My dealer doesn't care.
The BS is much better on track with the traction control off, so you need to make all necessary corrections, not the computer.
Personally, I think the car does best in full "s" auto. I'm not convinced using the paddles makes it faster.
Finally, you need to let the rear tires warm, and keep bleeding off air, as the tail really comes around a lot in the first few laps.
AS

jenk12m

i agree the BS is awesome on the track and it feels like the car shrinks around you once on the track. S mode suited me best as well and i found after more sessions that you can really toss that 3800lbs around very well

jrcart

The GT-R is obviously a great car, anyone that says otherwise does not have a clue. Performance wise it's in the same elite league as a BS, however they are two completely different cars but with the same agenda...getting from point A to point B as quickly as possible. The GT-R is a technological masterpiece, and the awd does not hurt either. The Black Series is in my opinion more of a drivers car, the BS will take a little more skill to handle at the edge and the "lively" tail-end might take you a few laps to get used to, especially coming from the very planted AWD GT-R, but when it's all said and done the BS is equally as fast and twice the fun (IMO) than the GT-R. One more thing I want to mention, as soon as you hear a BS on the track at speed you will be sold, the GT-R (and 997 for that matter)is a kitten in the sound department, the only thing that can rival the sweet sound of a BS at speed might be a F430 Scudi at speed, but even then it's a close call.

My car is very heavily modded now so many of the comparisons I make are really not a fair comparison, however I have been to several track events with several of the BS owners that post on this board who's cars are in various states of tune from showroom stock to nearly as heavily modded as mine and all of them including the stockers are consistantly amongst the quickest lapping cars on the track for whatever trackday event we are participating in.

Keep us posted on if you convert over to "the dark side", lots of very informed guys that post in this section from all over the country that are always willing to help out answer a question or even go check out a car for you if you find one out of town or online so you can get a set of eyes on it before you commit to buying. You really can't hurt one of these things either, I've put mine through the ringer and she's still perfect.

MACHC5

I am so "happy happy joy joy" my local track NJMP.com opens this weekend..

Jim Brady

My car is not moded like Jrcart, but it puts a smile on my face when I see GT3 drivers start driving their mirrors then their toast.
It takes a very good porsche pilot in a GT3 to beat the BS. Here's why.
The car was built in Affalterbach where the chassis was seam welded and triangulated. (like a race car) No other car other than a SL65 BS has that stiffness built in. In the high speed corners it kills the porsche, but looses in the braking zone. Out of the corners more torque wins.
The suspension KW totally adjustable was tested for 100,000 km on the Nordschleif not on a computer. You do need to do a competition alignment.
It has extra coolers for oil, water, power steering, and differential.
I've raced many high end sports and GT cars. The P cars being the most fun as they can't believe its a MB. However there are cars that you need to respect but you can surprise them.
But its not all glory the cars that kicked my *** were Ferrari Scud on Hoosiers, Viper ACR, Zo6 on R tires, 997tt Hoosier, suspension and 600+hp.
I haven't had the opportunity to line up with a GT-R but I'm sure I'm going to get the chance soon.

jenk12m

jrcart, is there a list somewhere on here of all the mods you've done to yours

jrcart

There are several threads but I will give you a quick run through.

Evosport longtube stainless headers and exhaust, cat delete, intake, evosport pulley, evosport/Powerchip ECU tune, evosport lightweight 2 piece rotors, stainless steel brake lines, H&R springs, competition alignment & corner balance, Dymag CF wheels (15 pounds), evosport/Vorstiener CF front diffuser/splitter and larger CF rear lip spoiler, 4 point roll bar, CLK DTM CF seats (115 pound weight savings), lightweight CF battery, plus a couple other little things that got thrown on over the winter.

In addition to the above mods I have a few things that have been added for my trips to the drag strip. I have a set of custom one-off 17" Forgeline wheels with Mickey Thompson Street E/T tires, an evosport line locker on my front brakes to assist in burnouts at the strip, 100 shot of NOS. In addition to all the mods listed I have tested several ECU tunes from other tuners, 4 different intake systems, 3 different air filters and a handful of other little negligable mods.

I'm probably forgetting a few things but these are the most significant mods that come to mind.

thebishman

Thanks for all the replies so far guys; very informative.

What I love about your car is that it seems as if it was designed from the outset to be a 'road track racer'; hence the multiple fluid coolers. The GT-R has a problem keeping the engine and transmission oils cool when pushed hard over a 20-25 minute run session at a HPDE when the ambient temps are high, e.g. in the 90F's.

Do those of you who track the car switch out the brake pads to something like the Carbotech 12's, or are the OEM pads adequate to resist fade when used hard?

Does the OEM brake fluid hold up well, keeping the pedal firm and resisting fade, or do you switch it to something like Castrol SRF, (my personal favourite)?

What tyres do you run on the track especially if you have a dedicated set of track wheels? I currently have Toyo R888s on a set of 19" Volk RE30s for the GT-R, although will get Hoosier R6s the next time if I keep it.

Lastly, does anyone know anything about the Iridium Silver BS at Formula 1 Sportscars in Miami?

TIA,
Bish

jrcart

Factory pads are actually pretty good, no other real good options if you intend on still driving on the street, there are a couple of other options if you want track only but normal street driving will not get them up to optimum operating temps and will be noisy. OEM fluid is fine, I wnet trough a set of pads and rotors in one afternoon at Road America (about 45 laps) and the fluid held up well. You are not going to find another track in North America that is as hard on brakes as Road America so you should be OK regardless of where you run. As for wheels I run Dymags 19x11 rears with 305 Corsas and 19x10 up front. I've been thinking about trying a set of Hoosiers but have not gotten around to it yet.

Doctodd33

im in Miami so i can take a look at the silver one at Formula One if u want....PM or email me cuz im not on here often

DFW01E55

Okay, since you're being honest about Godzilla, I'll fess up and say that I've put my car into limp mode on 100 degree days during a 20+ minute session.
If your oil temp hits 135c, the car puts you into C (comfort mode) and dials it back by 50% for maybe a minute and a half to 2 minutes. Then you're right back to full throttle.

The factory pads are excellent and I've changed fluid after 700 track miles because I was putting on ss lines, so why not change the fluid too.

thebishman

Thanks for the offer. I'm waiting to hear something back about the car's history via email, but if you're in the neighbourhood and can spare a few minutes to look at it and give me your thoughts it would be great. They actually have three BS's for sale
Bish

jrcart

What weight oil are you running? Back when they changed the recomended spec oil I heard this was one of the reasons, although you are the first person that I have heard of that actually put the car into limp mode. Are you running a stock tune? Some of us with early versions of the Powerchip ECU tune ran into some issues with limp mode on the track but it was not temp related and has since been rectified by Powerchip. I've run mine hard in 95 degree weather and never "limped out"...this could be a Viagra comercial with all this talk of "hard" and "limp" LOL.

jenk12m

jr, how much were the seats you put in. the stock seats just look heavy. you can pm me if you dont want to post the price

jrcart

I can't remeber an exact price, but I think somewhere in the ball park of $6000-$7000 +/- including the sliders and mounting brackets. I got them from evosport, Brad or Simon should be able to quote you an exact figure. I'll take a look to see if I can dig up an invoice for them.

jrcart

I just found an invoice, seats were about $2400 each and the misc brackets and sliders added and additional $800. There was also a pretty hefty shipping charge on these puppies becuase they had to come from Germany in a HUGE box, so plan on paying about $6000, plus labor and plus new SRS seat sensors if you want to avoid the SRS light being displayed on your dash all the time. I guess you could remove the old sensors out of the factory seats but I opted to leave them intact. So My range of $6000-$7000 was not too far off.

DFW01E55

5-40 Mobil1 and stock tune. It's that 135c threshold.

I know another guy who has had it happen too, but he can chime in if he chooses.

jrcart

I know it was happening to a couple other guys one here but we finally figured out it was due to early Powerchip tunes, it has since been corrected and I have not heard of any of the guys ever seeing the problem crop up again. I had not heard of anyone with a stock tune and the new spec oil running up against the problem. I'm not doubting you, just suprised this is the first I have heard of it really happening to somebody.

thebishman

A couple of other quick questions:

Do Mercedes dealers immediately void, and/or question any warranty repairs if they suspect the car is enjoyed on the track, even if it is very well maintained?

How pricy is 'regular' maintenance on the car, i.e. does it have very low mileage requirements re: fluid changes, etc?

TIA,
Bish