cls5504matic

Split cooling. One is going to be an intercooler almost certainly.

PekkaH

Fuel pump problems have seen a little progress. Cocobeex and nota_amg both did confirm that my wiring mod was like it should been. Nota did help me out there a lot, so big thanks to him.

So the problem must be in the used M157 fuel pumps. I have today bought a brand new set off M157 fuel pumps. I hope in next week they have arrived Finland and I can see was the problem there.

cls5504matic

Two steps forward, one step back.

PekkaH

Yeah, and after that there is gonna be issues with M157 pumps when installing to M278 cars. I need to try to get solve those because I don't want any faulty codes sometimes and car jerking on cruising speeds etc...

PekkaH

Btw. a while ago I did Dragy my car.

0-100km/h 4.19s. VALID Slope -0,17%
100km/h - 200km/h. 8,28s. INVALID Slope -1,66%
1/4 Mile 11,87s Trap seed 195.38km/h INVALID Slope -1,54

The place I did run the last two runs is place where it always is Under -1 slope and times are valid. I don't know why it was a bit invalid this time. I think the times a have get are a quite nice with that set up I have and our M278 platform.

My Shooting brake weight is 2005kg + a big subwoofer box, 12" sub, extra amplifier under trunks floor so extra weight with that 2005kg. Not on race car weights by any means... lol

cls5504matic

wow 11.87 with a SB! nice, I think that's around .5- 1s slower too judging from the 0-100km, which I would guess would be low 3s.

How's everything coming man?

PekkaH

Hey! Things are going in better way now. Car is running now AMG M157 pumps on. No CEL , no P008A codes, no jerking etc. Lets see how long.

I idid yesterday Valid Dragy runs: 1/4 mile 11,94 s 120,21mph and 0-60mph 3,99s And on that same run the time on 0-100km/h was 4,16s.


I think you are mixing now that 0-60mph is the same like 0-100km/h?? 60mph is 96,5km/h and 100km/h is 62,13mph.

I Think without TCU tune any M278 platform car is not going in that times you did mention. Or did I understand wrong?

This CLS63 has similar power level (550hv) that I have now with conservative tune (550hv) so in this link there's times what is measured and they are really close to mine.
https://fastestlaps.com/models/merce...omance-package

cls5504matic

Wow nice man.

i think most magazines here tested the 550 cls stock in the low 4s. Like 4.2 4.3. Esp off helps a lot there is some dyno mode too. i have a feeljng they may be testing 0-60 with1 foot roll out.

https://fastestlaps.com/models/mercedes-benz-cls550

and i believe most tuned cls 550s just stage 1 will rip off 0-60 in mid 3s, maybe 3.8 at worst.

Ive seen some as low as 3.1 3.2 3.3 which makes sense. That is what the cls 63s was tested at and tuned cls 550 should be really close to a 63 or a 63s.

2012 Mercedes CLS63 AMG
0-60 mph 3.9Quarter mile 12.2


2013 Mercedes CLS63 AMG Shooting Brake Station Wagon
0-60 mph 4.2 Compare
2014 Mercedes CLS63 AMG S-Model 4MATIC
0-60 mph 3.1Quarter mile 11.5

https://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicl...-60-mph-times/

PekkaH

My 0-60mph time (3,99s) is not great, bad launching. But comparing this stock CLS550 coupe (not shooting brake) times 0 - 60 mph 4.2 s 0 - 100 mph 10.2 s 1/4 mile 12.8 s @ 112.5 mph. My car runs like 1s faster quarter mile and 8mph faster trap speed. Like said I have a conservative tune because that dyno day heat, timing pulls etc. what I said earlier. But with stock turbos and without TCU tune (and without E85 blends,NOS,methanol) I think there is not a lot what can be done with my car.

Can you show where cls550 coupe with stage 1 will go 0-60mph to 3.1s-3.3s? Dragy etc. GPS times? Any link etc.?

cls5504matic

Sure.
. But. The logical part of me says. The power to weight ratios should be very close to the cls 63 in fact it might be about a cls63s. We could use them as a pretty good estimate.


I think its clear though they r testing 0-60 shooting brake about half a second slower than the comparable coupe maybe .3 at the closest.

u may want to check ur aux battery voltage. And overall electrical. I put in two new batteries and the aux battery def helped the tranny feel better. I thjnk these cars use so much power at 12v-14.4 and computer control that if it is a bit lower ir can throw off sensors etc.

idk. Might be worth somethjng to work on.

PekkaH

Hi! I think you compared to different power level cars here and also the S model is 4- matic. 2013 CLS63 amg have 525hv and 2014 S model 585hv+ 4-matic, that's the big difference between those two. cls Coupe VS. shooting brake are definitely not near 1s difference on 0-60mph time, if they are both S models and 4- matic. Maybe like 0,1s or 0,2s only. Thats how i see it.

"2013 Mercedes CLS63 AMG Shooting Brake Station Wagon
0-60 mph 4.2Compare
2014 Mercedes CLS63 AMG S-Model 4MATIC
0-60 mph 3.1Quarter mile 11.5 "

I don't believe that the battery stuff would make any difference att all. But who knows.

The TCU tune can put down like 0,3s on 0-100km/h and 1/4 mile times. That is tested many times on W212 platform. I don't know for sure how much is it going to help in our M278 platform without race start.Maybe 0,2s-0,3s a suppose.


But it would be very great and interesting to see those stage1 tuned CLS550 coupe running 0-60mph times on 3,1s - 3,3s. That you mentioned.

cls5504matic

Let's agree to disagree. I listed a 63 wagon vs a 63 non wagon as well. It clearly shows .3 seconds difference to 60mph. Seems interesting you're pushing back on this, I'd find it harder to believe the SB wouldn't be slower from standstill. The alternator turns off/disconnects when it isn't needed.

2012 Mercedes CLS63 AMG
0-60 mph 3.9Quarter mile 12.2

2013 Mercedes CLS63 AMG Shooting Brake Station Wagon
0-60 mph 4.2Compare

Will still look forward to reading your build progress.

PekkaH

Hey!

Heh heh, i have a two comparison also. And the 0-60mph time difference is only 0,1s

CLS63 AMG S coupe 585hv. 0-60mph time 3,4s. https://www.auto-data.net/fi/mercede...eedshift-18698

CLS63 AMG S Shooting brake 585hv 0-60mph time 3,5s. https://www.automobile-catalog.com/c...ll_4matic.html

And here's an example what I was thinking.

Those both 585hv cars are both underrated from factory. Same like our M278 cars are. They need to produce the 585hv on whatever gas. If we take those cars to dyno with good pump gas, they both are producing like 600hv. So if those about 600hv cars with race start can go 3,4s and 3,5s stock how stage1 tuned M278 can go a lot faster, like 3,1-3,3s. I think its impossible. IMO. When those 3,4s and 3,5s times are measured with those about +600hv cars, my cls500 0-60mph. time 3,99s is really in line compared with those times. My car is dynoed only 550hv and 850nm torque.

I think my car has not any problems, it just can't go any faster with this 550hv/850nm. My 1/4 mile Dragy measured trap speed was 120,21mph and that is a good time with this power level. Like you know the high trap speeds can tell the real power. Also my 11,94s is in line with my power level without TCU tune. With TCU tune with my power levels I suppose I can go 1/4mile 11,6x-11,7x but the trap speed would be nearly the same 120.

Yes thanks for support! I will let u know what will happen, and how those M157 pumps are working. Im really hoping no codes P008A etc. stuff.

I hope on week 42 I can get new ECU custom tune that will be made in dyno puls and maybe, really maybe a TCU tune from my tuner in Finland.

cls5504matic

looks like he has m157 turbos ... I asked...

PekkaH

Yes I have seen this car and admired that power it delivers on Dragy leaderboard! Its with M157 turbos and maybe lot more. Its the fastest M278 car on Dragy. Like stage3 car.

It have run 1/4 Mile 10.78s. and 217km/h trap speed!! Under 11s.! And I dont know does he even have TCU tune. That trap speed tells how much power that car has. My trap was 193km/-196km on my runs. those M157 turbos are doing their job really nice.

Can you CLS5504matic be so kind and ask him what fuel pumps he is using?! And does he have any problems with pumps?? That would be truly good to know for me and all the people who are installing M157 fuel pumps and M157 turbos in future.

cls5504matic

He says m278 pumps.

PekkaH

Thanks for info man! Great! I did a little searching and on instagram 07rus his CLS500 is rated 660hp. So it seems that the original M278 fuel pumps can produce that much fuel. This can be the limit for M278 pumps. Maybe if want to go and get "all out" for M157 turbos, like 660-700hv, the M278 pumps can be a problem. But this is only quessing. Very good to know this. it seems to work that way. If I will have those codes and jerkings with my M157 fuel pumps and I can't solve those problems I can go back to my M278 pumps.

Hope in next summer my car will be running even nearly like this car. Hard to believe because that 07rus CLS500 is soo amazing fast! Maybe there is methanol or NOS involved also, not only M157 turbos, exhaust etc. basic stuff.

Roop94

I've been following this thread and you guys are spitting out a lot of information. Awesome.

But one question I have...is it better to upgrade to M157 turbos or VRP M278 Billet Turbo upgrade? The website claims you can produce 600WHP with those turbos and they're quite cheaper than newer M157 turbos. I know there are cheaper and used M157 turbos, but since they're such a big investment, I don't know if I would be comfortable buying a used pair. And I am going to call VRP and ask them a few questions as well.

What do you guys think?

PekkaH

Thanks Roop94! I will personally post and share all info I will get for my project. Hope it will help someone after me. I think its the purpose off this forum to share the right knowledge to each other. I don't care less if someone others car is running faster than mine. I will be happy when cars can be tuned well and we all can enjoy our cars.

My 157 turbos were really good deal on eBay, and quite less Km driven. I haven't heard that M157 brake down, so its a good turbo. Also the horsepower range that im trying to get like 660hv-700hv is on M157 turbo range. ( if someone have an other opinion please do share it) I can't say are those vrp turbos good. If I were you I would look someone to ho have install those, before you buy those. We all need to remember that tuning companies are promising a moon from the sky... but sometimes the results are bad. If you buy those turbos without knowing how good they are working it is a big risk. It soo big task to install those like you know. So I am not pointing att any tuning companies like VRP to do such thing, only be careful with that turbo decision.

Roop94

Yeah, you do raise a good point on their reliability and being able to deliver the power as claimed on the website and such. I should try to find someone running those turbos and see if I can get feedback on those. I'm not in a rush to get the turbos, so I will probably get them a year or two from now. My income kind of doesn't allow me to spend another $2-3k on turbos just yet lol I'm starting a "business" on the side, so if that goes good, I might get them sooner.

But yes, I will definitely do the research that you just pointed out. Same here. I'm aiming to get in the range of 700-750 ish hp. I will be getting the Meth kit and the turbos upgrade at some point.

Also, with M157 turbos, the M157 fuel pump is required? And you said that you need to drop the engine for that? Do you think the M278 injectors are okay for M157 turbos?

PekkaH

Hi! Like post before sayed M278 fuel pump can maybe deliver about 660hv range without fuel pressure drop. (It was that 07rus car that have M278 pumps and M157 turbos.)But that information can't be found for sure anywhere. Some tuners can know that off course. So what we can think is that what ever turbos you install the delivery that original pump can give is MAYBE about 660hv range...

No you don't need to drop engine because fuel pump. They are located in under rear seat. Take the rear seat off and there you find them. The passenger side is the fuel pump 218 4700 004. Driver side is the fuel filter and bottom off it the FPR. 218 4700 994. M157 pump and filter are different codes. And M157 fuel pump is a lot bigger than M278. M157 fuel pump (Passenger side) need different wiring when connecting to M278.

The engine must drop down on turbo upgrade. There is not room to changes turbos without dropping engine.Check the engine bay and you see that. Due im not sure for RWD models but XWD it must come down. So a big job.

M278 and M157 engine injectors and high pressure fuel pumps are the same.

cls5504matic

The spark plugs have definitely been updated over time. I wonder if the M278 fuel pump was as well. I'll look into it.

Me, my build I think I'm going to do the billets + methanol.

Area under the curve, I'm sure the 157 turbos are better, and we could upgrade beyond 157 turbos ( https://www.weistec.com/w-4-turbo-upgrade-m157.html ).

I think the billet turbo doesn't require an engine pull so that's very nice. That has to save some on install. The billet may even be within reach for DIY. I would guess u take off the bumper, the fan, and I would imagine you're right there. If you have a garage, and can drop the engine I would almost just do m157 turbos, maybe put in billets in at the same time with the turbo back or bridge pipes. I would guess market value for M157 turbos is like $1500, with sub 1000 prices realized.

if you wanted to go all out, I would get bigger better turbos + methanol, and the turbo back pipes. That's a real build though I would guess 10-20k easy.

I was told to stay under 800-900hp. I think it is also a good target to provide less than 800#/' torque.

M157 turbo upgrade + methanol would get you to I would guess 660-730 awhp or so.

Full turbo upgrade + methanol I guess 730-800 awhp,

PekkaH

Im going to use the original spark plugs even when I get my M157 turbos on. I think that's the best choice for me. Only if my tuner can't get original plugs working I have to think what plugs im going to use. After market spark plugs have caused some serious problems. You can search on W212 forum if u like.

I really don't know why you say that billet turbos don't need to drop engine?? Do you think you can change the billet wheel when turbo is in place or what?? The turbo must be balanced with new wheel for sure etc.I think off course I have to take engine down with any turbo replacement, because there's no space to do it. Even when replacing stock turbo to stock turbo.

Dropping engine out is a big task. Everyone who will do it needs a lot off tools, and knowledge and time. Im not going to do it, hell no. There must de a good mechanic to do such a big work. Even not every car shop would not do it and I won't let just some mechanic to do it. I have found one really good that have repair Mercedes over years.

When I sayd "all out" I was meant the M157 turbos all out. And that level what they can produce is like 660-700hv. And yes some have get even more, but that is my "safe limit" with those turbos. I want keep my tranny also with in safe limits and HPFP limits are in there somewhere 750hv range I quest. Then they also needs to be replaced. Im not gonna do meth. Maybe a lot later when I will get bored to M157 660hv-700hv output I need to think some E85 blending.

cls5504matic

Re not needing to pull engine for billet:
"No Motor Pull! These turbos drop directly into your OEM Exhaust Housing!"
Source: https://www.vrpspeed.com/product/278tt/

And if you look at the pictures it seems you can.

For me re Methanol:
Methanol is huge on these engines I imagine. **** invented and built methanol injection for turbo piston engines, and the theory and data is quite good of its efficacy (I'm not a fan of course but they were good at engineering).

I understand we likely disagree, but why don't you want to do methanol, is it hydrolock or some other fear?

Re Tranny:
I think there are some physical upgrades. I know RennTech offers one, but I am not sure how far you can push it with the upgrades. Nota_AMG shared a low 10s 157 car so I guess there has to be some way to put down an amount of power greater than what I imagined the limit is.

https://www.renntechmercedes.com/ind...t-722-9-detail
https://www.weistec.com/forms/weiste...ervicedata.pdf
https://www.weistec.com/media-events...9transmission/

Interestingly they have an AMG 722.9 upgraded torque converter(???): https://www.weistec.com/722-9-torque-converter.html

PekkaH

Yes it looks like the turbo swap can be done with engine in. I didnt know that. Still a big job to do DIY. Needs a lot skills and tools. But Im pretty sure that on 4-matic the engine must drop down.

Yes there are big gains on Meth. No question about that. In this time the methanol is not in my plans. Its the one factor more that can fail in my project etc.

Im not going to get any tranny hardware updates. Too expensive this time.

It would be nice to see how you car will run after you do your different route tuning, like billet turbos and meth. I think it will run pretty good.

Then buy a Dragy and its then nice to compare with others how the car will really run. I think the Dragy is a very good way to see in real world on the road how good everyones cars perform. Not only dyno results.

EDIT: The best nota_amg Dragy time in 1/4 mile is 11,39s what I have seen. Not like hi 10, if he hasn't make a new personal best.

Btw I have driven on M157 fuel pump now several days and I have run many many pulls without any issues and codec what's so ever! Car is running and behaving great, like on M278 original pump. So I hope that will continue.