unpollo2

but starting costs are significantly less

74k for the C63 and 84k for the C63s

how is the GTS commanding a 50k premium? is that 50k of pure style because while i do think the GTS looks way better it doesn't look 50k better

in fact the C63 has 2 more seats!

i think MB needs a lesson in diversification. GTS needs a better engine at that price point or the price needs to come down

PeterUbers

I hear ya... But I don't think the $50k is all about the looks, these are two totally different vehicles and share a common engine and that's about where it ends ...

the gts is a true gt car that has wowed just about all owners and critics ... The price point is a personal judgement call as to whether it's worth it or not... About the only other car for the money I would consider is the current Porsche 911 tt

unpollo2

Reading even more about the new C63s it'll have same dynamic engine chassis mounts for stiffer track handling, ceramic brakes, and it's being introduced with limited edition 1 just like the GTS was.

I don't doubt that the cars are significantly different as I've read the GTS handles better on track but realistically most buyers of either car won't be tracking them 5% of the time.

Just seems like the GTS is price gouging buyers if they can produce the C63s for 50k less.

PeterUbers

The sls was price gouging and that had the "same" engine as the w204 e63 with a different tune...

Rocman8

the main difference in the sls/gts engines compared to the "same" engines in cheaper cars are the dry sump setups and the intake on the sls. there is more to it when it comes to car pricing especially with r&d and considering how many c63's they will sell compared to a gts.

Wolfman

The engine alone doesn't make the car... Completely different cars. No matter how nice the the C63 is, it's still a "lower-end" model in MB's food chain.

The GTS actually is the evolution of the SLS chassis/suspension from which it inherited many components (actually even from the BS).
Lower center of gravity, dry sump on the engine (as mentioned)

One of the most significant differences is that the GTS uses an improved SLS transmission (manufactured by Getrag) rather than the usual MB MCT that most other AMG's have. Recognized by most as the best transmission in any AMG to date.

JoeNobody

SLS always had a getrag transmission.

C63 doesn't have exact same engine, and they have different designations (M177 vs M178), although in general they are the same but with select changes.

unpollo2

i wasn't aware of this as i am new to the brand

coming from Ferrari they are very keen to distinguish their vehicles, each model and price increase has a very logical reasoning behind them

from Cali T to 488 GTB you've got a 40k base price difference, essentially the same base engine with different tune, but completely different cars one is a GT one is a supercar and then there is 100 horsepower difference too.

GTS and C63s i think need more differentiation in the engine horsepower then

emericr

Ferrari does not make entry level cars or sedans. The Cali is in the 200K range and the FF was a failure.
Even though the GTS shares a lot with the C63S, the basic fact that you will sell less cars means you have to amortize the costs over fewer cars therefore the price goes up.
Powerwise, they may use the same engine but a roughly 1 second difference in the 1/4 mile is very substantial.
You have to pay for exclusivity and MB knows that. I was actually impressed with how much they lowered the MRSP in order to properly compete with Porsche. If you look at it that you are getting a better SLS for close to half the money, the GTS i actually a bargain

TCB EP

Emericr, fully agree with with your input/comparision of the SLS/GTS/C63s. As we know the AMGs are underrated, wished they, on paper, said the AMG GTS was 525 hp or so (which it has) to set them apart 4 the $$.
Ep

unpollo2

the 2016 C63s will have the exact same gearbox as the GTS and the same seats as well. only difference is suspension, so you're paying for a 50k track suspension on a road going car

"In addition to the new engine, the C63 models are available with other bits of similar tech as the AMG GT, including dynamic engine mounts, three-stage adjustable damping and four-mode drive select. Ticking a few boxes on the options sheet can add ceramic-composite brakes and a performance exhaust, among other upgrades."

Vic55

It will be the same M177 engine that it has right now the 2015's... the GTS has the M178 with dry sump. (engine only talk).

There will be no way the C63S catches the GTS on the track or in the looks department. I have the same V12 in my FF that is in the F12 Ferrari... and 4 seats yet which car is better- the F12 is. Different segments and market differentiators. The C class never sat in my head when I looked at the GTS. There will be limited cross pollination here. But good for Benz stepping up with the DCT - something BMW has had since 2009 in their competing M3.

unpollo2

base price for the Ferrari FF is 300k and for the F12 is 320k

so we are talking about a 20k difference which is 7% premium from the base FF

GTS is 50k difference from C63s which is 59% premium from the C63s

no the numbers are not wrong

PeterUbers

Will due respect:

But again as mentioned above

Ferrari doesn't make sub $90k brand new sedans for the "less wealthy" so it's hard to understand how you're painting these broad brush strokes to make a comparison to a "base" Ferrari compared to a premium Ferrari

Best thing is this --- you don't have to give a DIME to Benz. Exercise your right to buy something else

Most who buy the gts Benz are not processing facts as you are. They are making an emotional and passionate decision based on the looks and feel of the gts. They're not too concerned it shares some parts with a car that was never on their radar -- the c63s

Good discussion though

unpollo2

All Ferrari's have a base price, the options are extra. My California had 30k options, my 458 spider had 75k options

i'm just comparing the starting price of cars and using percentages to highlight how much of a real difference there is and how it doesn't make much sense

either the C63s is a loss leader or the GTS is a huge cash cow

PeterUbers

I think we see eye to eye now

The volume of sales alone of the gts will pale compared to the c63s, so even if the margin is higher in the gts, the real revenue will come from the c63 sales I would imagine, worldwide

Wolfman

Nonsense. The C63 does not and will not have the Getrag gearbox.
Not sure where you are coming with that stuff...

Wolfman

I can see that coming from Ferrari you may not realize how mass manufacturing works. The C63 is not a loss leader and the AMG GTS is not a cash cow.

R&D costs are spread across the volume of manufactured cars. The C63 is the high-end version of a low-end car and AMG's highest sales volume model. Cool car but there are many of them.
Platform development is spread across millions of C-Classes (over time).

The AMG GTS is a AMG purpose-build platform that will be in tens of thousands (over time). None of the actual car development is shared with Mercedes unlike the C-Class.

RDOCA

Correct as I have the 2016 C63S and it is the MCT as before. the GTS is a rear transaxle DCT.
The C63S has the same HP as the GTS but has more torque at 516 as opposed to 479 on the GTS.

NewportSLS

I might be interested in a GT as a daily driver if, they make it in a Vert. I am not interested in the current hatchback. http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...ear=1981&Log=0

Rocman8

Where are you getting your information about the transmission? You couldn't be further from the truth.

Vic55

You missed my point; it was about the segment and different car class with the same engine... I never mentioned cost. And the C63 will have the M177 not the M178. No my info is not wrong.

unpollo2

I didn't miss it. I am showing you that the price disparity in the mercs doesn't make much sense when you compare them to other manufacturers pricing strategies.

PeterUbers

You still don't have a good apples to apples comparison with Ferrari and Mercedes in terms of pricing strategy

I'm lost with your ongoing comments.... the c63s, happens to share seats and an engine with a totally different looking, class, and performing vehicle made by Benz and you insist it's not making sense how they are pricing the gts.

And the c63s will not have the same dct transmission ...nor does it produce the performance (based on lap times) of the gt-s

You should compare Ferrari to the masseratis which I believe have a Ferrari built engine and the quattroporte is about 1/2 or less the cost of the Ferrari you mentioned

unpollo2

an older article mentioned it was a dual clutch gearbox perhaps they were mistaken:

"The sedan shares some of the best high-performance tech with the GT, including its heart. They both make use of the company's latest twin-turbocharged 4.0-liter V8 with two levels of tune. The standard C63 makes due with just 469 horsepower and 479 pound-feet of torque. If that isn't enough for some reason, then the C63 S offers 503 hp and 516 lb-ft of twist. That power means even the regular model can sprint to 62 miles per hour in 4 second flat, according to Mercedes, and the S sheds a tenth off that run. Regardless of tune, the gearbox is Merc's seven-speed AMG Speedshift dual-clutch transmission."

i just think for 50k more the GTS should be a little more differentiated from the C63s as in a more powerful engine.