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In case of an overfill warning after the engine has been properly brought up to temperature.
I use a straightened a piece of copper tubing (4 mm O.D) that is just about as long as the depth of the tank.
The copper down pipe is not effected by the oil temperature.
Using a flash light I insert the tubing into the tank through one of the holes of the inside tank baffle.
My suction collecting device plastic line snaps right onto the tubing.
I have placed scaled markings on the suction container.
Or I use a back light to see the visual effect of the amount of oil being collected in progress. View of the inside tank baffle screen holes Inserting the copper tubing Connecting point of the flexible plastic tubing to the copper tubing Vacuum/pump collector Scale on tank Back light to view the level rising in the tank
Did your dealer over fill it? When my GTR was serviced MB procedure was followed and my car was not overfilled, my level was ~ 3/4 between min and max. i think your suction method is pretty neat and could that be a method to use instead to getting most or all of the hot oil out of the oil reservoir and then lifting it to remove the drain plug along with the oil pan plug.?
Did your dealer over fill it? When my GTR was serviced MB procedure was followed and my car was not overfilled, my level was ~ 3/4 between min and max. i think your suction method is pretty neat and could that be a method to use instead to getting most or all of the hot oil out of the oil reservoir and then lifting it to remove the drain plug along with the oil pan plug.?
I discovered my oil level to be overfilled after I recently got my oil temperature/level issue resolved ( i did write a separate thread on this topic) so I had a need to resolve the high oil level warning and found this to be the best way to take care of it. Earlier today I got the hint/message from a fellow thread participant that this would also be an excellent way to get most of the hot oil before pulling the drain plug when doing an oil change and indeed just like you are mentioning it here that's exactly what I'll be practicing from here on.
I'm glad that this may be a much safer way to deal with the hot oil drain for those doing there own oil changes.
Hendrik,
Do you think the copper tube is necessary, why not all rubber clear tubing or would it collapse from the heat? I ask because I dont like the thought of metal on metal but I do know your not jamming it in there,lol....I also think your graduated cylinder is a great idea too.. Thanks for your contributions !
That's a creative solution for adjusting oil level (especially if the service company/dealer doesn't follow the oil change procedure). You have many good ideas!
I don't think this will work very well as an oil change alternative method as I think you'll end up still stuck with the 1L of oil in the oil cooler and lines. Secondly, the oil tank does not hold all 7L of oil, actually only about 4 1/2L. Anyone who has done the change completely knows there is at least a liter between the engine sump and filter, and another liter in the oil cooler and lines.
I know the "hot oil dump" coming from pulling the tank plug within 3 minutes is a hassle, but there is a reason for it, actually a couple of reasons. Pulling the plug within 3 minutes quickly evacuates the 4 1/2L and also causes the 1L of oil in the cooler and lines to be sucked out into the tank so that last liter is not left to mix with the new oil. I'm guessing if, instead, you try sucking the 4 1/2L out through and to your tank, you'll not make the 3 mins before the oil Tstat closes again denying that oil to drain into the tank, and you'll lose the "rush" drain of hot oil needed to pull the 1L out of the cooler lines.
If you do try it as an alternative oil change technique, which I hope you do, it will be an interesting study to follow up. I will follow this as I do all of your threads!
Best,
That's a creative solution for adjusting oil level (especially if the service company/dealer doesn't follow the oil change procedure). You have many good ideas!
I don't think this will work very well as an oil change alternative method as I think you'll end up still stuck with the 1L of oil in the oil cooler and lines. Secondly, the oil tank does not hold all 7L of oil, actually only about 4 1/2L. Anyone who has done the change completely knows there is at least a liter between the engine sump and filter, and another liter in the oil cooler and lines.
I know the "hot oil dump" coming from pulling the tank plug within 3 minutes is a hassle, but there is a reason for it, actually a couple of reasons. Pulling the plug within 3 minutes quickly evacuates the 4 1/2L and also causes the 1L of oil in the cooler and lines to be sucked out into the tank so that last liter is not left to mix with the new oil. I'm guessing if, instead, you try sucking the 4 1/2L out through and to your tank, you'll not make the 3 mins before the oil Tstat closes again denying that oil to drain into the tank, and you'll lose the "rush" drain of hot oil needed to pull the 1L out of the cooler lines.
If you do try it as an alternative oil change technique, which I hope you do, it will be an interesting study to follow up. I will follow this as I do all of your threads!
Best,
Your comments are always appreciated, they are of great value and a sounding board for any ideas. As you know for a while I had a non functioning oil temperature/level gauge (now resolved) that caused me to end up having an incorrect oil level in the oil holding tank and therefore my method was figured out to assist me bringing the level within the required specs.
When others chimed in regards to the idea of using it as away to avoid the large amount of "hot oil dump" I considered that as well. Your input of the quantity of old oil left behind warrants a further review of this method.
I now have ordered a spare oil tank just for the sake of experimenting and refining the process. Once it has arrived I'll spend some more time in reviewing all that is related to the oil level/oil change alternative, perhaps including the way how or when the Tstat is opened or closed by me or ECU signal.
Make yourself a calibrated suction probe with a suitable, fixing stop. (you have both hands free).
The length would be from the upper edge of the dipstick holder to the max.marking. (You can measure the dipstick)
Oil on right temperature.
Engine off.
Open filler cap. (Just to make sure, that there is no negative pressure)
Pull the dipstick.
Insert calibrated suction probe.
Suck off until you draw air.
Done.
Make yourself a calibrated suction probe with a suitable, fixing stop. (you have both hands free).
The length would be from the upper edge of the dipstick holder to the max.marking. (You can measure the dipstick)
Oil on right temperature.
Engine off.
Open filler cap. (Just to make sure, that there is no negative pressure)
Pull the dipstick.
Insert calibrated suction probe.
Suck off until you draw air.
Done.
Kind Regards
Stenzel
Stenzel,
I am not sure this will accomplish a complete oil change as I do not believe the cooler and lines will drain that way.
I believe the oil change process was designed with precision, and every step ensures a complete drain, if every step is followed.
The engine warmup to 100*C on oil temperature is to ensure the oil cooler thermostat is opened so that it can drain. That is defined in the first WIS step.
The 3 minute interval is important as I believe after 3 minutes the EMS resets (for the next start) and the thermostat is electronically closed so it can be ready to respond to the next startup
Everyone complains about the rush of hot oil coming from the tank when the plug is released, however, I think there is a very real engineering reason for that. The drain plug is a 1/4 turn cam lock, the diameter of the opening is 18mm. When the plug is quickly released and the oil rushes out, this creates a vacuum in the tank much like a piston on an intake stroke with the throttle plate closed. This vacuum helps pull the oil from the cooler and lines because those will be the only openings if the fill cap is left closed
I will republish the WIS instructions below this. NOTE, what is conspicuously missing - There is NO instruction to first remove the fill cap. This means that when the plug is removed in 3 minutes with the hot oil, it will rush out and create a vacuum above the now dropping oil level. None of this would be accomplished by siphoning the oil from the top of the tank, even if you were able to accomplish that within 3 minutes.
Here are the instruction again. I am convinced, every step in these instructions is well intended. I do not believe German engineering made any mistakes here.
I know Hendrik is experimenting with some siphoning techniques, and if he is successful in doing that while at the same time accomplishing a COMPLE oil drain of 7L then I will be glad to accept it as an alternative.
Sorry, it was a misunderstanding. Thought Hendrik wanted to vacuum when it was overfilled.
I will do the following with the next oil change (but it will take a while):
1. Warm oil. Empty the oil tank, especially with the filler cap open. Open the 2nd drain plug and empty the oil filter housing.
Then measure this entire oil volume.
2. Refill, drive it . Oilchange according to the instructions. Also measure the entire volume here.
Then we have a comparison, what really different vollume is.
My personal opinion:
Think that the "extraction of the oil cooler" is a bit overrated.
As my knowlege, the first fill of a brand new and completely dry AMG-GT oil system is 9 liters.
"Old" oil always left. With a total volume of 9 liters, it doesn't really matter whether it is 1,5 or 2,5 liters?
Especially since MB want a oilchange once a year.
So far, my GT already had 5 oil changes in 12k mls. (and 1 for trans. / clutch )
I'm really not worried about the residual oil.
Its the same with all engines. Anyone who has ever disassembled an engine can confirm that.
You drain off all the oil and ----> still have dirty, oily hands. :-) :-)
There are simply pockets and channels that can not run empty.
Kind regards
Stenzel
Last edited by Stenzel-Germany; 08-18-2021 at 08:27 PM.
Sorry, it was a misunderstanding. Thought Hendrik wanted to vacuum when it was overfilled.
I will do the following with the next oil change (but it will take a while):
1. Warm oil. Empty the oil tank, especially with the filler cap open. Open the 2nd drain plug and empty the oil filter housing.
Then measure this entire oil volume.
2. Refill, drive it . Öilchange according to the instructions. Also measure the entire volume here.
Then we have a comparison, what that really different is.
My personal opinion:
Think that the "extraction of the oil cooler" is a bit overrated.
As my knowlege, the first fill of a brand new and completely dry AMG-GT oil system is 9 liters.
"Old" oil is always left. With a total volume of 9 liters, it doesn't really matter whether it is 1.5 or 2.5 liters?
Especially since you should change to MB once a year.
So far, my GT already had 5 oil changes in 12k mls. (1 for trans. / clutch )
I'm really not worried about the residual oil.
Its the same with all engines. Anyone who has ever disassembled an engine can confirm that.
You drain off all the oil and ----> still have dirty, oily hands. :-) :-)
There are simply pockets and channels that can not run empty.
Kind regards
Stenzel
Yes, I understand what you are saying about residual oil. I've many hours building ICEs. This is one extra liter that the factory engineers apparently intended be drained. I am convinced because so many have overfilled conditions from the dealer changes it is because 7L is the change refill, but if the oil cooler is not drained, then 1L stays in the system and the dealer STILL adds 7L.
9L initial fill is a little difficult to believe. I can see 7.5L.
Maybe Hendrik knows as he installed a different motor in his GT. If all the oil was removed (except residual oil sitting in pockets)?
Hendrik - Can you recall if your initial fill was as much as 9L?
Last edited by Acta_Non_Verba; 08-18-2021 at 08:01 PM.
Yes, the problem is known. I do not think that all shops adhere to the guidelines.
Acording to the specifications, the oil change is already time-consuming, especially when the vehicle is cold.
Time pressure, ignorance, a.s.o.
For engines that are unknown to me, i reduce the specified amount of oil by 0.5 - 1 liter. This is usually between min. and max.
Then engine run up to temperature (then the filter is also filled) and check the oil level after a short break.
Better to fill up than vacuum.
An empirical value:
Even motors that are completely identical, differ by up to 0.25L
Maybe it's just the dipstick. :-) :-)
Maybe Hendrik knows as he installed a different motor in his GT. If all the oil was removed (except residual oil sitting in pockets)?
Hendrik - Can you recall if your initial fill was as much as 9L?
After the engine was exchanged my oil temp/level gauge wasn't working and therefore I found that the reservoir got overfilled. This was also the reason that I started to work with a suction setup whereby I used a solid metal tube that would/could reach down to the bottom of the very hot oil reservoir via the dip stick opening.
Now that I have an extra reservoir and engine on hand I eventually may rig them up (including the oil return, feed, cooling loop lines and cooler) whereby I can run some more experiments that are of interest to me.
As we all know a clean lube oil system will add to the longevity of the engine. When I replaced my original AMG GTS (the PO managed to get the engine seized up due to the lack off oil - I had found an engine with only 13k miles on it) I for kicks checked with MB for the price of a new one (and was quoted $90K) and when I had Porsche 928 GTS I drove it for 15years @180K without any major issues.
So for me clean oil kept at the right level in the car is a no brainier.
Last edited by Hendrik Koster; 08-19-2021 at 05:59 AM.
As we all know a clean lube oil system will add to the longevity of the engine. When I replaced my original AMG GTS (the PO managed to get the engine seized up due to the lack off oil - I had found an engine with only 13k miles on it) I for kicks checked with MB for the price of a new one (and was quoted $90K) and when I had Porsche 928 GTS I drove it for 15years @180K without any major issues.
So for me clean oil kept at the right level in the car is a no brainier.
Hendrik,
I very much agree with you here. I do not accept an incomplete or partial oil change as acceptable. At least not in my engine. I have way too much experience tearing into engines to know better.
With the 9 liters I meant a new, completely dry oil system. All lines, heat exchangers, coolers, oil lanes, pockets, a.s.o.
Realistic? I think so. Of course, I didn't fill it in myself, on the assembly line at AMG. :-)
Had read that.Scoured my records. The only thing I found was this:
German:
Bei der Trockensumpfschmierung ist das Motoröl in einem separaten Behälter aus Kunstoff enthalten. Die Füllmenge beträgt neun Liter...............
Translation:
With dry sump lubrication, the engine oil is contained in a separate plastic container. The filling quantity is nine liters ...............
With the 9 liters I meant a new, completely dry oil system. All lines, heat exchangers, coolers, oil lanes, pockets, a.s.o.
Realistic? I think so. Of course, I didn't fill it in myself, on the assembly line at AMG. :-)
Had read that.Scoured my records. The only thing I found was this:
German:
Bei der Trockensumpfschmierung ist das Motoröl in einem separaten Behälter aus Kunstoff enthalten. Die Füllmenge beträgt neun Liter...............
Translation:
With dry sump lubrication, the engine oil is contained in a separate plastic container. The filling quantity is nine liters ...............
Kind regards
Stenzel
Stenzel,
Nice work,
Those are the images that are very helpful to better understand the AMD design for their dry sump system, do you have any that incorporate the rest of the loop or sections of it like cooler and related lines.
Can you point me to the source of your pictures, I can see it's from a German publication.
The publication means: Einführung neuer AMG GT und GTS Baureihe 190 (Introduction of the new AMG GT and GTS 190 series)
As far as I know, it is also available in English. These are the information brochures delivered to the workshop staff when a model series is presented.
Unfortunately, in contrast to the water cooling system, there is no system image of the oil circuit shown. This page is the only picture.
Info: as of change status 1/17 (GT with Panamera grill) the hole cooling system has changed.
Oil cooling system was changed from 1 lying oilcooler in the middle to 2 oilcooler in the side pods.(behind 2 watercooler)
I'm looking into this a little more as I am finding it hard to believe that a race engine loses (hides) 2 full liters of oil. Bad enough 1 liter is hiding in the oil cooler and takes an acrobatics feat to remove and the factory seems to think that 1 liter is important to remove giving instructions to do so, but not two more liters hiding else ware?
The image in Stenzel's post #16 is a common one and appears in several Dealer's advertising information. Here is one from a dealer I found at random (pic embedded in article): Mercedes-Benz Dry Sump Engine (arrowheadmb.com)
Coincidentally, the AMG C63S oil fill change is 9 liters, with the AMG GT series 7 liters.
It does not make enough sense to me to accept my first premise above. Frankly, if there are actually 9 liters in the dry sump system and you can only drain 6 or 7 liters it would make me want to do two, back to back oil changes to improve dilution rates. But, I'm still not convinced the dry sump actually leaves the factory with 9 liters of oil. I wonder if it takes 9 liters to fully circulate the oil on the first fill, then 2 are removed after the first startup.
This has me hunting, but glad Stenzel published it.....
So, I found this on Wiki (I know) and it validates what Stenzel says about 9 liters. I am looking to find the entire oiling system diagrammed. I'll spend some time on WIS when I get a chance. Still trying to "guess" (for now) where two liters are hiding in this engine. Two liters is over a half gallon of oil, not a small amount. As far as I know so far, there is a cooler with lines up front, the tank, the engine and turbos. I cannot think engine oil is diverted anywhere else, maybe naively for now.
Hendrik - the below stat says the external oil tank is 12 liters. You have one as a spare. Does it look capable of holding 12 liters?
If I only read (saw) what's below, and doing a first oil change I would have purchased 2.5 gal of oil for the change! Talk about being overfilled.....
M178
The M178 is the second variation in the family and geared toward the higher performance and motorsport. The 345 and 375 kW (469 and 510 PS; 463 and 503 hp) version was introduced in Mercedes-AMG GT (C190). The output has been upgraded a several times over the time and for the motorsport. Brabus offers PowerXtra B40S-800, the performance upgrade kit for AMG GT.[12] The kit increases the output to 588 kW (799 PS; 789 hp) at 6,500 rpm and 1,000 N⋅m (738 lb⋅ft) at 1,750-4,500 rpm.
Specifications
Cylinder arrangement V8
Cylinder angle 90°
Cylinder block alloy Cast aluminium, closed deck
Cylinder head alloy Cast aluminium, zirconium alloy
Variable valve timing Camshaft adjustment on both the inlet and outlet side
Displacement 3,982 cc (4.0 L; 243.0 cu in)
Bore x stroke 83 mm × 92 mm (3.27 in × 3.62 in)
Cylinder spacing 90 mm (3.54 in)
Compression ratio 10.5:1
Output 375 kW (510 PS; 503 hp) at 6,250 rpm [Output per litre 94.2 kW (128.1 PS; 126.3 hp)]
Maximum torque 650 N⋅m (479 lb⋅ft) at 1750 – 4750 rpm [Torque per litre 163.2 N⋅m (120.4 lb⋅ft)]
Maximum engine speed 7,200 rpm
Maximum charge pressure 1.2 bar (17 psi)
Peak engine pressure 130 bar (1,900 psi)
Air delivery Forced induction, 2x twin scroll turbochargers spinning to 186,000 rpm with electronically controlled blow-off valves
Fuel delivery Electronically controlled direct petrol injection with spray-guided combustion, fully variable, fuel pressure 100–200 bar (1,500–2,900 psi)
08-05-2021, 06:54 AM
