99 E300 Turbo Diesel PROBLEMS!!!
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E300DT
99 E300 Turbo Diesel PROBLEMS!!!
First off let me start by saying that the car has over 200kmi.
The vehicle had air in the fuel lines which has now been fixed. The idle quality and lower end power was poor, along with economy. Diesel cleaner was put thru the fuel system many times to possibly clear a clog. Fuel filters have also been changed. Most recently an intake cleaner (Seafoam) was introduced thru the intake manifold while idleing, the RPM's shot up well over the engines RPM redline.
It appears that the injector pump is now not building pressure, I believe it was weak before and now the inner seals are shot. The vehicle can barely get started, and most time stalls out now. When trying to start it creates a HUGE amount of white/blue smoke (head gasket is good). When I was able to still get it to run enough to drive, on the road under hard throttle it produces a HUGE amount of black smoke.
I can also hear what I believe some people call "nailing", it's sort of a light fast taping sound, which I believe is coming from the injectors.
Vehicle is being taken off the road and intake manifold is coming off tomorrow.
Please post info
Thanks
Lowflyingbird
The vehicle had air in the fuel lines which has now been fixed. The idle quality and lower end power was poor, along with economy. Diesel cleaner was put thru the fuel system many times to possibly clear a clog. Fuel filters have also been changed. Most recently an intake cleaner (Seafoam) was introduced thru the intake manifold while idleing, the RPM's shot up well over the engines RPM redline.
It appears that the injector pump is now not building pressure, I believe it was weak before and now the inner seals are shot. The vehicle can barely get started, and most time stalls out now. When trying to start it creates a HUGE amount of white/blue smoke (head gasket is good). When I was able to still get it to run enough to drive, on the road under hard throttle it produces a HUGE amount of black smoke.
I can also hear what I believe some people call "nailing", it's sort of a light fast taping sound, which I believe is coming from the injectors.
Vehicle is being taken off the road and intake manifold is coming off tomorrow.
Please post info
Thanks
Lowflyingbird
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From: Bay Area, CA
09' E320
I'd start with a compression test since it rev'd too high. How high IS too high? Where BTW did you introduce the cleaner at? The air filter box or at the intercooler/EGR connection to the IM.
Other than the oring seals at the Delivery valve pressure holders (x6) there aren't any other internal seals in the IP that deterioate from exposure to fuel that I am aware of.
I doubt your pump is the problem unless it is leaking fuel at the DV's or from beneath teh SOV.
Use your mech stethoscope and confirm where the tapping is comming from.
Other than the oring seals at the Delivery valve pressure holders (x6) there aren't any other internal seals in the IP that deterioate from exposure to fuel that I am aware of.
I doubt your pump is the problem unless it is leaking fuel at the DV's or from beneath teh SOV.
Use your mech stethoscope and confirm where the tapping is comming from.
Last edited by TMAllison; Mar 8, 2009 at 06:51 PM.
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E300DT
Hi,
Where exactly do you perform a compression test? I can only guess at the injector hole. I will see if I have that threaded connector.
As to how high is too high, I can not say for certain, but it was far more than I have felt while driving, hitting the red zone. Though no coolant has been lost or seen in either oil or exhaust I believe the head gasket is still good. This is because I have been able to drive the car since the problem developed on a highway run for about 45 minutes at varied throttle and speed between 45-80 mph.
I see the DV's on a tech post, I have to believe ther is another seal than those six?
How about the injectors, Is it possible with my miles and hi Rev issue that I killed an injector or two.
Lowflyingbird
Where exactly do you perform a compression test? I can only guess at the injector hole. I will see if I have that threaded connector.
As to how high is too high, I can not say for certain, but it was far more than I have felt while driving, hitting the red zone. Though no coolant has been lost or seen in either oil or exhaust I believe the head gasket is still good. This is because I have been able to drive the car since the problem developed on a highway run for about 45 minutes at varied throttle and speed between 45-80 mph.
I see the DV's on a tech post, I have to believe ther is another seal than those six?
How about the injectors, Is it possible with my miles and hi Rev issue that I killed an injector or two.
Lowflyingbird
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From: Federal Heights, CO
1982 300D VNT, 1980 240D 3.0T, 1982 300TD
What did you expect would happen? Diesels are controlled only by fuel. Thats why the owners manual warns of severe engine damage if starting fluids are used. "Intake cleaner" is no different.
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From: Bay Area, CA
09' E320
Comp test would usually be done through the GP hole. Difficult to get 6" down inside the inj hole and tighten anything. I wasn't thinking about overheating, more so wondering if a valve, prechamber or something else up top went bad......?
Hows the trans? Its rev limited to 4k in P to protect the torque converter. Limiter cant do anything when you pump fuel into it.
The inside guts of the IP are mostly piston type valves pushed by a cam device. Only the peripherial attachments on the top and sides have oring seals exposed to fuel; the guts (including lift pump) are lubed by engine oil. If a seal is bad you'll be leaking fuel......if you're not leaking, move on.
Could have damaged an inj, develped a bad spray pattern or maybe ones become a leaker/dribbler I suppose. A bad inj sounds like "grumpy" (seven dwarf's fame) is in the block with a BIG hammer and wants OUT. If it is an inj you ought to be able to hear which hole it is using the mech stetho and should be able to then loosen that fuel line and notice no (or less) effect to idle quality than loosening the other holes. If one is bad, move it to another hole and see if the prob moves with the inj. Requires a special 22mm thin wall, super deep well MB socket with a cutout for the return line barb to remove inj's. Need a new heat sheild each time one is pulled too.
DV seals require a diff special MB socket.
Black smoke is usually unburnt fuel. Blue/white, oil.
Hows the trans? Its rev limited to 4k in P to protect the torque converter. Limiter cant do anything when you pump fuel into it.
The inside guts of the IP are mostly piston type valves pushed by a cam device. Only the peripherial attachments on the top and sides have oring seals exposed to fuel; the guts (including lift pump) are lubed by engine oil. If a seal is bad you'll be leaking fuel......if you're not leaking, move on.
Could have damaged an inj, develped a bad spray pattern or maybe ones become a leaker/dribbler I suppose. A bad inj sounds like "grumpy" (seven dwarf's fame) is in the block with a BIG hammer and wants OUT. If it is an inj you ought to be able to hear which hole it is using the mech stetho and should be able to then loosen that fuel line and notice no (or less) effect to idle quality than loosening the other holes. If one is bad, move it to another hole and see if the prob moves with the inj. Requires a special 22mm thin wall, super deep well MB socket with a cutout for the return line barb to remove inj's. Need a new heat sheild each time one is pulled too.
DV seals require a diff special MB socket.
Black smoke is usually unburnt fuel. Blue/white, oil.
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From: Bay Area, CA
09' E320
G'man - You are applying 350 chevy thought process (remember vacuum leaks?
) to a diesel again. The seafoam was an ungoverned external fuel source that cant be turned off; once started it'll run until that fuel is consumed, or it blows.
Search runaway diesel sometime.
) to a diesel again. The seafoam was an ungoverned external fuel source that cant be turned off; once started it'll run until that fuel is consumed, or it blows.Search runaway diesel sometime.
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E300DT
Details
First off Seafoam is OK to be used in diesels. The problem is that since the 99 diesel is a turbo intercooled, the cleaner only made it's way to the low mounted intercooler. I was reving the motor at times while adding the cleaner to make it flow up to the intake. I can only believe that it collected in the intercooler and only got sucked up all at once when the RPM's went crazy.
I was able to drive the car after the RPM incident. The transmission felt fine, when above 3000 the engine also felt fine, and ran well. Doing some reaserch, when the inj. pump is suffering a seal problem the symptoms are as I had; poor economy, reduced low end performance, engine missing at low rpm.
I'm fine with changing all of the delivery valve seals and related parts. I also would like to possibly do a rebuild on the injectors. Does anyone sell the needed part, other than the dealer? I found the inj. pump seals thru a few online stores.
Please reply ,with part numbers and needed quantities if possible. Also If you know of any tech repair links I would appreciate.
Thanks
again
Lowflyingbird
I was able to drive the car after the RPM incident. The transmission felt fine, when above 3000 the engine also felt fine, and ran well. Doing some reaserch, when the inj. pump is suffering a seal problem the symptoms are as I had; poor economy, reduced low end performance, engine missing at low rpm.
I'm fine with changing all of the delivery valve seals and related parts. I also would like to possibly do a rebuild on the injectors. Does anyone sell the needed part, other than the dealer? I found the inj. pump seals thru a few online stores.
Please reply ,with part numbers and needed quantities if possible. Also If you know of any tech repair links I would appreciate.
Thanks
again
Lowflyingbird
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cheaper than a benz...
last time i checked you had to buy a whole injector, although it may be possible to get a rebuild kit. so far people have pointed you in the right direction, also if you start r&r all the injectors make sure you reconnect or replace the bleed off lines.
the lines from the IP to the engine are 20nm as well as the intake runner bolts are 20nm, there is a special tool to remove the delivery valves on the IP
if the swapping of injectors does not change the problem..then it may be the Injection pump, but try everything possible in order to condemn the actual problem
the lines from the IP to the engine are 20nm as well as the intake runner bolts are 20nm, there is a special tool to remove the delivery valves on the IP
if the swapping of injectors does not change the problem..then it may be the Injection pump, but try everything possible in order to condemn the actual problem
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From: Bay Area, CA
09' E320
Fixbenz - I remembered driving home that the OP has a stage two tuning chip (increases fuel and boost).....is it possible the high rpm and runaway turbo pulling too much air and fuel stired up sediment in the IP and clogged an inj??? The chip kind of explains the WOT black smoke.
LFB - Put your car and mods in your signature. Helps us help you. If you do DV's PM me first. I did a write up for a noobie who could hardly find the IP. Next time if you want to clean the IM take it to a machine shop and have it hot tanked.
For DV seals go to fryerpower.com and get the 606.962 viton oring kit. They'll last longer than the buna nitrile rubber MB sells. No affliation but I did provide the counts and sizes on the 606. Owners a good guy on another forum.
Once again....If you don't have an IP leak you dont have a DV or SOV seal problem.
LFB - Put your car and mods in your signature. Helps us help you. If you do DV's PM me first. I did a write up for a noobie who could hardly find the IP. Next time if you want to clean the IM take it to a machine shop and have it hot tanked.
For DV seals go to fryerpower.com and get the 606.962 viton oring kit. They'll last longer than the buna nitrile rubber MB sells. No affliation but I did provide the counts and sizes on the 606. Owners a good guy on another forum.
Once again....If you don't have an IP leak you dont have a DV or SOV seal problem.
Last edited by TMAllison; Mar 9, 2009 at 11:20 PM.
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From: MA
1987 SDL; 2001 Chevy 2500HD CC, 8.1L, Allison special order; 1970 GTO LS2, 4L60E, under construction
Hey TM, maybe you should check the other post and relaize there's only one person on this forum that has any clue what he's doing. And its not you.
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e300d
Nice. I always wondered what that product might do in a force-fed diesel.
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From: MA
1987 SDL; 2001 Chevy 2500HD CC, 8.1L, Allison special order; 1970 GTO LS2, 4L60E, under construction
Absolutley nothing. Seafoam is rated for both gasoline and diesel engines. Moronic moves like hitting the throttle linkage while applying it is not the fault of the product.
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E300DT
Thanks, Gman, so now I'm a moron!!! The vehicle had what has become common sign of weak IP seals, and has 200kmi. with no recorded service. So if it did not go to the crapper now, it most likely had little time remaining. The throttling of the engine while introducing the seafoam is so it would not collect in the intercooler. Obviously it did none the less!!! It was the pooling of the seafoam in volume that created the high rpm. Not the throttling of the engine while small amounts were added.
TMAllison, I will PM you, and would appreciate the notes on the DV seals. I have bought from Fryerpower before. I purchased the Viton seals for the plastic lines along with the other seals that come in that kit. I only had the time to install the two seals needed at the time. I will check to see if I already have the DV seals in what I purchased, if not I will get them.
I planned on doing all the plastic line seals when I take the car off the road, which has become, NOW. I'm also pulling the intake and cleaning it, I have the equipment to do so.
The mods on my cars engine are only the stage one chip. I will be making a custom exhaust now that I'm doing all the work.
I hope that if I have an injector problem, that I have more options than buying from the dealer.
Thankyou
Lowflyingbird
TMAllison, I will PM you, and would appreciate the notes on the DV seals. I have bought from Fryerpower before. I purchased the Viton seals for the plastic lines along with the other seals that come in that kit. I only had the time to install the two seals needed at the time. I will check to see if I already have the DV seals in what I purchased, if not I will get them.
I planned on doing all the plastic line seals when I take the car off the road, which has become, NOW. I'm also pulling the intake and cleaning it, I have the equipment to do so.
The mods on my cars engine are only the stage one chip. I will be making a custom exhaust now that I'm doing all the work.
I hope that if I have an injector problem, that I have more options than buying from the dealer.
Thankyou
Lowflyingbird
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From: Bay Area, CA
09' E320
LFB - We know who the moron is.
Am assuming you have no CEL, right?
Weak DV seals = leaks, sometimes hard starts and in rare occassions rough running initially. I know of no other "issues" with seals?
If its not leaking now leave well enough alone until it does. I can send you the DV info. You've got the seals already if you got the viton kit. You'll need the splined socket. Hazet makes one also. Dealer sometimes is not too expensive for tools if yours is freindly.
I can send you an option for balancing/rebuilding the inj's or replacing nozzles too if needed. Much cheaper than buying complete inj's.
First investigate and lets figure out whats wrong.
Am assuming you have no CEL, right?
Weak DV seals = leaks, sometimes hard starts and in rare occassions rough running initially. I know of no other "issues" with seals?
If its not leaking now leave well enough alone until it does. I can send you the DV info. You've got the seals already if you got the viton kit. You'll need the splined socket. Hazet makes one also. Dealer sometimes is not too expensive for tools if yours is freindly.
I can send you an option for balancing/rebuilding the inj's or replacing nozzles too if needed. Much cheaper than buying complete inj's.
First investigate and lets figure out whats wrong.
Last edited by TMAllison; Mar 10, 2009 at 10:44 PM.
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From: MA
1987 SDL; 2001 Chevy 2500HD CC, 8.1L, Allison special order; 1970 GTO LS2, 4L60E, under construction
So let me get this straight...... Since all the morons got together and "made sense" of the situation...
Puddling of a "fuel" or accelerant in the intercooler was somehow enabled to suddenly "jump up" into the intake and then combustion chamber while the car was at idle and that caused the engine to over rev?????
Last time I checked, a fuel or combsutible liquid placed into and intake and then combustion chamber without the appropriate O2 and timing increase that ONLY get actuated when the THROTTLE is opened causes a stallout or in the case of a severe amount of liquid, the engine become hydrolocked.
Bottom line for all the simpletons:
Engines don't rev when expeosed to just fuel, or a combustible liquid. They only rev when the corresponding air flow and timing is advanced along with the fuel.
YOU hit the throttle by mistake when adding the Seafoam. No other explanation is feasable.
Puddling of a "fuel" or accelerant in the intercooler was somehow enabled to suddenly "jump up" into the intake and then combustion chamber while the car was at idle and that caused the engine to over rev?????
Last time I checked, a fuel or combsutible liquid placed into and intake and then combustion chamber without the appropriate O2 and timing increase that ONLY get actuated when the THROTTLE is opened causes a stallout or in the case of a severe amount of liquid, the engine become hydrolocked.
Bottom line for all the simpletons:
Engines don't rev when expeosed to just fuel, or a combustible liquid. They only rev when the corresponding air flow and timing is advanced along with the fuel.
YOU hit the throttle by mistake when adding the Seafoam. No other explanation is feasable.
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1982 300D VNT, 1980 240D 3.0T, 1982 300TD
YOU hit the throttle by mistake when adding the Seafoam. No other explanation is feasable.
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E300DT
Hi,
Thank you again TMAllison. I got your emails ,very much appreciated.
I looked into new nozzles for the injectors @ $52. ea. for Bosio nozzles. My car has over 200k on it, and I want to replace them. I wrote down the other parts such as the inj. heat shields, del. valve washers, delivery compression springs , intake gasket and EGR seal. I want to do all now while the car is off the road.
I would also like to have a pop test done on my injectors, but do not know of any place near me who does it. I saw a thread on building a custom home made pop tester.
Please do send me the inj. info on rebuilding.
Thanks
Lowflyingbird
Thank you again TMAllison. I got your emails ,very much appreciated.
I looked into new nozzles for the injectors @ $52. ea. for Bosio nozzles. My car has over 200k on it, and I want to replace them. I wrote down the other parts such as the inj. heat shields, del. valve washers, delivery compression springs , intake gasket and EGR seal. I want to do all now while the car is off the road.
I would also like to have a pop test done on my injectors, but do not know of any place near me who does it. I saw a thread on building a custom home made pop tester.
Please do send me the inj. info on rebuilding.
Thanks
Lowflyingbird
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From: Bay Area, CA
09' E320
Have you found any fuel leaks? isolated the problem to a cyl or inj?
Unless you plan to make a hobby of pop testing it may not be worth the effort.
You need 6 each of a zillion shims (washers) to properly balance the inj's within a few bars of each other.
If you have a weeks time its much easier to contact one of the two individuals I mentioned and let them do it for you. After they've popped them and observed spray pattern if they're bad they can clean and try again, and afterwards can tell you if need none, one or two new nozzles or a whole set. I think they charge about $10 ea to do that. They'll also have more expirience testing them than you will.
Bosch service centers and even some MB dealers will rebalance inj's too; as do some big rig shops.
Unless you plan to make a hobby of pop testing it may not be worth the effort.
You need 6 each of a zillion shims (washers) to properly balance the inj's within a few bars of each other.
If you have a weeks time its much easier to contact one of the two individuals I mentioned and let them do it for you. After they've popped them and observed spray pattern if they're bad they can clean and try again, and afterwards can tell you if need none, one or two new nozzles or a whole set. I think they charge about $10 ea to do that. They'll also have more expirience testing them than you will.
Bosch service centers and even some MB dealers will rebalance inj's too; as do some big rig shops.
Thread Starter
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E300DT
Hi,
I have the time,the car is off the road. I had to slap together my truck to get to work. I will definitly use one of the services you mentioned to do the POP. I have not looked to hard yet to check for a leak. I just want to do everything now.
I still also have to join the other tech forum. Right now I barely have time to do anything.
Thanks
Lowflyingbird
I have the time,the car is off the road. I had to slap together my truck to get to work. I will definitly use one of the services you mentioned to do the POP. I have not looked to hard yet to check for a leak. I just want to do everything now.
I still also have to join the other tech forum. Right now I barely have time to do anything.
Thanks
Lowflyingbird
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99 E300 TurboDiesel
99 MB E300 TD - Fuel Injector Pump issues.
Hello All -
I am having similar issues w/ my 99 E300 and have a shop working on the car now.
This started out as a job to fix a fuel leak, where we saw air in the lines. We ordered the O-Ring kit from fryerpower.com and found some copper crush washers from a guy in Oregon in order to fix the leak on the DVs.
Finally, after getting all of the parts and everything back together...when the tech's went to start the car, it ran ok at idle but took off and ran out of control.
We have a loud pinging sound when accelerating. White smoke at idle.
There is a leak that remains near the pump.
Any ideas? I'm posting for my techs, so please be patient w/ me
I am having similar issues w/ my 99 E300 and have a shop working on the car now.
This started out as a job to fix a fuel leak, where we saw air in the lines. We ordered the O-Ring kit from fryerpower.com and found some copper crush washers from a guy in Oregon in order to fix the leak on the DVs.
Finally, after getting all of the parts and everything back together...when the tech's went to start the car, it ran ok at idle but took off and ran out of control.
We have a loud pinging sound when accelerating. White smoke at idle.
There is a leak that remains near the pump.
Any ideas? I'm posting for my techs, so please be patient w/ me
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Mercedes w210 300td
Hi guys, apparently nasty ones and otherwise, after reading your thread about IP issues, I’m mastering the courage asking for help in solving something very strange. I just replaced the timing chain, got the engine on the timing marks, eventually on 14 degrees a.d.c.. The engine is a W210 025, 137Kmiles. With the timing out of whack, I proceeded to remove the IP. I removed the 2 front bolts and the one at the back, and also unbolted the adjustment device. I installed the basket and removed the center bolt. Now the strange part: The IP won’t move. Tried to move it with a bar, used 2 screwdrivers driven between engine block and flange. It moved about 3/8 of an inch. I wasn’t going to use brute force until I evaluate all opinion and suggestions. It is the second time I’m doing this on this engine and never had a problem the first time. Please help, I’m frustrated and desperate.
