Bucyrus

Hi,
I was wondering if anyone is using the Shell Rotella T Synthetic Oil in their MB? It is like $12 bucks a gallon at WalMart. Also, in a 94 E420 would I be better off staying with Dino oil or switching to synthetics. Anyone had leak problems with synthetics in older MB?
Many Thanks,
Bill

NorCal124

Rotella is intended for use in diesel vehicles.

Bucyrus

Yes it is NorCal but it is also for other uses. Many of the GoldWing people are using it in their bikes instead of Mobil 1 now. Many of the car people consider it interchangeable for Mobil 1. On the independent oil analysis on the net, it comes out better than Mobil 1 and is much cheaper. I was just wondering if anyone had used it.
Has anyone switched to synthetics in earlier models (mine is a 94 E420) and then developed leaks? I am trying to determine how likely this is to happen.
Many thanks,
Bill

mhorn

I have used Chevron Delo in my '91 300E, but decided to go back to conventional 40 weight oil for summer driving. Didn't really notice any difference. I have heard that the zinc content in motor oil has a high correlation with engine protection at the molecular level. Don't know if it's true or just another gear head myth. In my mind, the old adage is still true, it doesn't really matter what oil you use as long as you change it regularly.

E55AMG99

At that price I'd assume it is a Group III oil and not a Group IV (PAO/ester) synthetic oil. Very common these days to see cheaper Group III oil mixed with Group IV or V additives and marketed as syntehtic or semi-synthetic. This doesn't always mean that Group III oils are inferior. It means that they are refined from dino oil stocks and synthetic additives are used to bost performance.

Bigger question is how does it hold up under the very specific stress of your engine. Motorcycles and diesel engines have VERY different lubrication needs than a gasoline engine. Not all gasoline engines are created equal either. They can have differing oil requirements as well.

IMHO, if you want the best oil for your Benz, stick with Mobil 1 0W-40 or the German produced Castrol green synthetic. Both of these hold up very well with extended drain intervals in our cars. Of course, there are other great oils that can be used if you plan on keeping drain intervals at 5K or below. The best thing you can do is run it for 5K and do an oil analysis.

Switching to synthetic on a high mileage car? You may or may not have problems with leaks. Gasket and seal material has gotten better lately and the detergent properties of good synthetics are not as harsh as they used to be. It all depends on how much the sludge in your engine is acting as a seal for the oil.

E320BENZ

go Mobil 1 synthetic, it's the best. no leaks

NorCal124

E320Benz is right, why go with something thats cheaper and intended for diesel vehicles when you can buy the right stuff and not have to worry about if it will work or not. I'm the 4th owner of my vehicle and synthetic oil was used under the 3rd owner. I don't experience any leaks but if you use a thinner oil expect it to happen.

E55AMG99

Not a viscosity issue WRT leaks. Synthetic oil has more detergent properties. It will remove the sludge that is plugging the leaks. Older seals may also have adverse reactions to the synthetic oil and break down or swell.

AMG_Eric

well i have been running mobile 1 for 2 years now. guess what? if finally started to weep at the oil pan gasket. its only a drop or 2 on the driveway after a hard driving session. i am not saying synthetic is bad i am merely pointing out that depending on how well your engine is sealed or how old it is a synthetic may weep oil.

also look into amsoil. its quite good and lasts 4ever. i have seen that stuff run in race motors and all they do is change a filter if the motor didnt let go.

ML55CLA45

i have used it up until recently......... had been runing rotella in the car since brand new.... but recently i switched to a new dealers and forgot to tell them i want rotella put in it....... they put mobile1 in it and in all honesty... i cant tell that much of a difference.....

-carino

owe... my car did start leaking at approx 75k miles.... with rotella... i dont know if it was correlated... but thought id also add that in for completness... but after reading what others have said... it probably may have contributed... anyways.. 80Kish miles now... new gaskets.. mobile1.. no leaks.... im pleased.

E55AMG99

Just curious, why did you go with Rotella in the first place? What about it made you switch?

Greg

ML55CLA45

to be honest.... im not sure... the car was my mothers before it was given to me.... my guess is... that we have several deisel cars/trucks and thats what was used in them...

it must have been something my father and the SA discussed... so that is what had always been put in it at our dealer out here in kc (aristocrat motors)

like i stated earlier.. i just recently switched dealers and had assumed that they knew that rotella is what i wanted...

AMGDave

Rotella Syn is a "fake" synthetic, actually a Group III hydrocracked dino oil. Not bad stuff, but I'd change it at 3-5k intervals like it was dino oil.

The best stuff on the market that's easy to locate & buy is 5W-40 Mobil-1 'Truck and SUV' formula. Don't let the T&S marketing crap scare you away, it's a real Group IV/V synthetic, and (IMO) superior to the other varieties of Mobil-1 because it's a different base stock. (It's actually repackaged Delvac-1 but Mobil won't admit that publicly.) I use this stuff in all my cars & trucks, gas & diesel, Mercedes or not. GREAT oil. And, the best part is, you can buy a 5-qt jug at Wal-Mart for $20.xx!

Remember: Mercedes does not approve any xW-30 or thinner oils... needs to be xW-40 or xW-50. The Mobil-1 15W-50 oil is also good stuff but IMO it's not worth the extra $1/quart (thanks to Mobil's new marketing scheme.)

E55AMG99

Hi Dave,
I figured the Shell product was a Group III just by the price. Thanks for confirming that. WRT the Mobil/Delvac, how do you know they are the same? They might be the same base stocks as the Mobil data indicates but to me, the data from the analysis says they are different.

Also, have you done any UOA on the Delvac and other oils in the same engine? This information is much more useful in comparing oils and their performance in a given vehicle. I've seen oils that in virgin tests all look great but after a used test, most look no better than muddy water!

I have no doubt that the Delvac will perform great in any vehicle. I used it in everything from 3hp Briggs & Stratton to 450HP Caterpiller engines during my years in the transportation business. UOA always came back looking great no matter what the oil was in, even the shop air compressor!

AMGDave

Back when the M-1 T&S came out, there was much debate, but basically they appear to be nearly identical formulas... D-1 repackaged into quart bottles under a different label. Mobil engineers would not confirm nor deny anything either on the phone or via email, according to a few people who tried to get more info.

For the record, I did not do any of those VOA's... that was all "borrowed" from other people's data on the infamous BobIsTheOilGuy.com forum. I need to update that with the new Extended Performance stuff (which IMO, is more of a marketing gimmick than anything else).

I've been doing UOA on some of my engines on an ongoing basis, mostly with D-1, and it's always come back excellent. But I don't try other oils, I just keep using D-1. I'm now using the T&S instead since it's much cheaper, ~$4/qt versus ~$6/qt for the 'genuine' D-1 gallon jugs.

I'm a little afraid our "secret" will get out and Mobil will jack the price up...! :p

E55AMG99

LOL! I wonder if they really will raise prices since the stuff is marketed more to the fleet operator than to the shade tree mechanic. I wish I had kept all of the UOA I did over the years but I guess as formulations and engines evolve, they wouldn't be of much use today.

CE750

Hey E55AMG99.. I have 4000 miles on Mobil 1 0W-40 (standard new MB Fill) but I also have a bunch of Delvac that I purchased the other day over the internet. Is the Delvac that much better than the 0w-40 that I should immediately change my oil to it, or should I wait for 6500 miles or even the MB recommended 13000??

My attitude is I don't mind spending the $50-90 on oil change to save a $10,000 engine.

what would you do?

PS.. also, since you seem so sharp with the automotive chems.. what do you think of water wetter (115 degrees here in Phoenix this week!). Does it help keep the engine cooler?

AMGDave

I'm not E55AMG99 but I'll give you my $0.02 anyway...

1) I feel the 5W-40 is definitely superior to the 0W-40, but I'd just switch at your next regulary scheduled change interval. I think the 0W stuff gives a tiny advantage in MPG and peak HP but gives up a little in overall protection relative to the the Delvac-1. (Note that I'm not a lubrication engineer nor do I play one on TV.) I like 10kmi intervals (assuming the UOA is clean at that point!) simply because it's easy to know when the next change is due!

2) The jury is out on Water Wetter effectiveness with 50/50 coolant mixes, but it is supposed to be helpful at lower percentages (such as 20% antifreeze, 80% water). In a hot climate a 20/80 mix is fine - I used that when I lived in balmy Sacramento (115°F summer peak temps). Here in Spudland we can get to 0°F so I need at least a 40/60 mix. I add a bottle of WW for grins. Some folks argue that like oils, antifreezes are a carefully formulated package that shouldn't be tampered with by adding aftermarket placebos. I'm open to some kind of data one way or the other on this though.

3) On a side note, I assume you all know to ONLY use Mercedes antifreeze, or Zerex G-05 (which is the same stuff in a different bottle). Don't use anything else. Why? Read this PDF file (0.6MB, link below) for details:
http://www.w124performance.com/docs/..._Confusion.pdf

CE750

nope, but you sound like you stayed at a Holiday-Inn Express!

Thanks for the tips, and the PDF. I will always insist on MB fluid in my radiator. I like the blue color anyway... much cleaner looking!

E55AMG99

Thanks for the compliments. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not an expert but I have been around the block a few times.

My first rule with engine oil is change it and the filter in 1/2 the manufacturer's recommended time for the FIRST change. Take a sample for analysis and look at how TBN, metals, dirt/silica, and viscosity compare to "virgin" oil. One warning about TBN. It should never be below 2 on the Blackstone method for a diesel. Know that Mobil1 starts over 12 for most of their oils but the number does not follow a linear regression. If it is at 12 to start with and 8 after 5K miles, it could be 2 at 10K. On my newer cars using Mobil 1, all oil samples were still looking OK to good at 10k +/- mile changes. Your mileage may vary.

The second rule is to change the filter 2X as often as the oil. Unless you are using a spinner or other secondary oil filtration system, the standard bypass filter will never be able to keep the dirt out of your engine for more that 5-7K miles. After that, it will let some dirty oil into the engine especially on cold starts.

The third rule is to use UOA (used oil analysis) to determine your OCI (oil change interval) but that OCI should not exceed today's already long factory recommended OCIs just to cover your a$$ if there is a problem. After all, what are we trying to do, save a few $ on oil or many $$$$$$$ on a new engine?

My final rule for oil is use only a true Group IV synthetic for extended OCIs . If you change your oil every 3K miles, there is nothing wrong with good old fashioned Group III dino oil but you wouldn't do that to you baby, would you? You also don't sound like the kind of guy that is looking to get 20K mile OCIs. Instead, you will likely follow MB's OCI which is pretty long.

Should you go to Delvac right now? Delvac was designed with a diesel in mind from the start but there is nothing wrong with the oil that came from the factory if following factory OCIs. How's that for diplomacy?! The two are interchangable and equal IMHO under factory OCIs.

115 is damn HOT! I haven't used Water Wetter in a new car since the late 1990's. Not so much because of its performance but becasue most newer cars have much improved cooling systems and coolant. In my part of Northern California, the average summer temps are mostly in the 80's and rarerly in the 90's or 100's. I stopped seeing much improvement in my newer cars. I still use it in my 1966 327/350 Corvette, 350 Chevy powered 1980 CJ-7 and my 1932 Ford coupe powered by a 496 inch 600+HP big block Chevy. All of them respond very well to the stuff.

CE750

Thanks a lot man.. good info too! Just a quick followup..

The diesel's tend to create more "soot" in the oil? true? And if so... would that effect your 1/2 the manufacturers interval rule? Is this soot harmful to the oil?

Just FYI.. So far, I've done 1000 miles (break-in) and again at 3000 miles... with plans at 6500 then 13000/19500/etc.. with Delvac (6500 interval).

E55AMG99

With OCIs like that, you've got nothing to worry about except maybe spending a little more on oil than you might need to. But, a few $ on oil is better than many $$$$$ on an engine for a car you plan to keep for many years and miles.

Soot is an intersting problem/question that can be correctly answered by looking at your UOA. It is harmful and a big problem for diesels if levels go over 2-3%. You should be able to find out what the max levels are for your engine and make your determination if 1/2 interval is the right time or not. My guess is with the ultra clean CDI and a 6500 OCI, you don't need to do the filter 2x. Lastly, the standard bypass filter may not be able to trap enough soot to make a difference. If you are really concerned about clean oil, look for a secondary filter that will remove almost 100% of the contaminents.

CE750

That's what I figure... 6500 with Delvac is only going to cost me $90/yr more.

As for the secondary filter.. I like the idea.. I know Amsoil makes them, but how to install it on an MB? that is the question... I don't want the dealer claiming that I'll going to void my warranty for tampering with the filter. Even though you and I know that's BS..

E55AMG99

Too bad the dealers can be such morons.

I had an AmsOil secondary on my old turbo VW powered dune buggy. I took oil from a T in the oil cooler line. I've seen guys get oil from the pressure sender as well. Getting the oil back is the hard part if you have to drill the oil pan. I was able to dump it back through the breather on the valve cover but be careful not to overload the oil drainback capabilities of the head and block passages. The manufacturer should have ideas about where to optimally connect it.

Remember to drain and refill it separately. Having an extra quart of oil in the pan while waiting for the secondary to fill can be bad for the motor.

CE750

Can you imagine MBUSA's response to the question "Where do I drill into the oil pan?"


those idiots don't even want to admit that Redline 85+ works! "We recommend NO additives!"